Society/Culture Does the Australian flag have an image problem?

[Gethelred]

No, I used meh for those who actually have a problem with the flag and what they perceive it represents.

Read it again and realize it wasn't just a reply to you.

Oh, I get that it wasn't just a reply to me. You have a habit of assuming the people arguing against you are simple.

You tried to smuggle in a patriotism argument into war commemoration akin to the way a religious person would assume with their wording that it is the source of all morality into any argument concerning morality. Then, when called out on it, you proceeded to handwave the fact that you did it in order to reassert the things you wanted to say anyway.

If you want to post in this manner, expect it to be highlighted. It's slimy and disingenuous.

 

[Cyg1992]

Not being a flag/anthem obsessed douche bag doesn't mean being 'global'

I love this country with a passion. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
However that doesn't mean I need to love some generic made up flag and anthem, which aren't even very old nor rooted in some illustrious tradition or history.

Believe it or not, one can love Australia without being a try hard American styled 'patriot' or using stupid and meaningless terms like 'uN-AuStRaLiAn'

One can also criticise what is heavily wrong with our society, without being labelled with the above stupid term.
Horse blinders off folks

 

[Carringbush2010]

Oh, I get that it wasn't just a reply to me. You have a habit of assuming the people arguing against you are simple.

You tried to smuggle in a patriotism argument into war commemoration akin to the way a religious person would assume with their wording that it is the source of all morality into any argument concerning morality. Then, when called out on it, you proceeded to handwave the fact that you did it in order to reassert the things you wanted to say anyway.

If you want to post in this manner, expect it to be highlighted. It's slimy and disingenuous.

I think you're misinterpreting my posts Gethelred.

I'm not trying to smuggle anything, my post you replied to is clear

• Some people have a problem with pride in nation, patriotism - whatever one wants to call it.
• Me calling that out as not good is not 'slimy and dangerous' - as you put it, if that is what you're implying.
• I do not assume people I'm arguing against as simple, not that I'm arguing with anyone in this thread (maybe you but you're not simple). You're assuming as such is well, assuming.

 

[rank and file]

The flag will be changed soon enough.
Then it will quite a few Australians with an image
problem.

 

[ChampRevesby]

The flag will be changed soon enough.
Then it will quite a few Australians with an image
problem.

You won't stop nationalist types appropriating a nations symbology for their own means that's why it doesn't really matter whats on the flag.

 

[The Passenger]

Is anyone here a fan of the 1997 sci-fi/horror movie Event Horizon? Sam Neil has an interesting flag patch on his shoulder;

Never seen it, but imagine if that happen today... I think Andrew Bolt would spontaneously combust.

 

[Power Raid]

In WW1 and WW2 Canadian soldiers fought and died under this flag, representing the Dominion of Canada, which is still Canada's official title according to this

Dominion of Canada

Dominion of Canada is the country’s formal title, though it is rarely used. It was first applied to Canada at Confederation in 1867. It was also used in the f...

www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca

In 1965 Canada adopted the Maple Leaf as its official flag through a series of parliamentary debates. There was public input for flag ideas, but no formal referendum.

Flag of Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada remains a Constitutional Monarchy within the British Commonwealth to this day. None of its war dead were invalidated by the new flag even if they died under the Dominion Flag.

Whilst in Australia, Australian's DID NOT fight and die under this follow flag



but rather this one

The Australian government restricted the sale of the blue ensign and thus citizens were forced to use the red merchant navy (civilian navy) flag. Further the Prime Minister's Department released a memo in 1939 "the Red Ensign is the flag to be flown by the public generally" and the federal government policy was "The flying of the Commonwealth Blue Ensign is reserved for Commonwealth Government use but there is no reservation in the case of the Commonwealth Merchant Flag, or Red Ensign".

It wasn't until the 1950s when the Flag Act ordinary Australians had clarity under law they could use it.

 

[Lethality]

The indigenous flag replacing the Union Jack would be the perfect solution.

We have this annual furore about Jan 26, yet nobody mentions the Union Jack. Outrage is very selective for some reason.

 

[the_interloper]

The indigenous flag replacing the Union Jack would be the perfect solution.

We have this annual furore about Jan 26, yet nobody mentions the Union Jack. Outrage is very selective for some reason.

I'd go for that. Honestly I don't reckon it would look that good but the sentiment would override that.

Do you have to have a referendum to change a flag? I have no idea.

 

[Roylion]

Do you have to have a referendum to change a flag? I have no idea.

You only need a referendum to change the Constitution.

 

[Rob R]

The indigenous flag replacing the Union Jack would be the perfect solution.

We have this annual furore about Jan 26, yet nobody mentions the Union Jack. Outrage is very selective for some reason.

Why replace the corner of our flag (Union Jack) that represents a major part of our history but only a small part of our people for another flag (Indigenous) that has the same limited relevance. Put both on or neither.

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[Ghost Patrol]

Why replace the corner of our flag (Union Jack) that represents a major part of our history but only a small part of our people for another flag (Indigenous) that has the same limited relevance. Put both on or neither.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

The indigenous history is tens of thousands of years old. The Union Jack represents less than 300 years.

 

[the_interloper]

Why replace the corner of our flag (Union Jack) that represents a major part of our history but only a small part of our people for another flag (Indigenous) that has the same limited relevance. Put both on or neither.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

We should add the state flags too, maybe get someone's nana to knit it like a quilt?

 

[Rob R]

We should add the state flags too, maybe get someone's nana to knit it like a quilt?

No have neither - a totally new design.

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[Roylion]

The indigenous history is tens of thousands of years old. The Union Jack represents less than 300 years.

But it does represent the establishment of the six colonies (now states) that make up the Commonwealth of Australia via the federation of those colonies/states as well the basis of our legal and political system, as well providing our national/official language, not to mention much of our culture including sport.

 

[Rob R]

The indigenous history is tens of thousands of years old. The Union Jack represents less than 300 years.

And our laws, majority of our people etc link back to the union jack. We need to move from a flag that reflects one group to a flag that reflects all not focus on a different group.

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[Carringbush2010]

But it does represent the establishment of the six colonies (now states) that make up the Commonwealth of Australia via the federation of those colonies/states as well the basis of our legal and political system, as well providing our national/official language, not to mention much of our culture including sport.

The problem or narrative depending on how one perceives is that the following is bad:

• Colonies, colonization
• Commonwealth of Australia
• Legal and political system
• National official language
• Sport

In short anything that is non indigenous = bad.

Yeah I know it's only a noisy minority that have this problem / perception. None the less here we are talking about it and further, we're on the precipice of having an indigenous voice to parliament*, to represent. That's how much traction the noise of a disgruntled minority has carried this.

Whichever way you boil it down and dissect it, anything to to with british or non indigenous is perceived as bad / to be punished / eradicated - whatever

* I think this is a good thing, I also think all minorities should have representation in parliament. How we do that I don't know.

 

[Carringbush2010]

And our laws, majority of our people etc link back to the union jack. We need to move from a flag that reflects one group to a flag that reflects all not focus on a different group.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Fair enough, this is one busy flag you have in mind.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We should add the state flags too, maybe get someone's nana to knit it like a quilt?

Further add all the nations prior to colonization, numbers in the 100's or 1000's I believe

No have neither - a totally new design.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Design of what exactly? What is going to be represented on this flag?

 

[Soggy2112]

The problem or narrative depending on how one perceives is that the following is bad:

• Colonies, colonization
• Commonwealth of Australia
• Legal and political system
• National official language
• Sport

In short anything that is non indigenous = bad.

Yeah I know it's only a noisy minority that have this problem / perception. None the less here we are talking about it and further, we're on the precipice of having an indigenous voice to parliament*, to represent. That's how much traction the noise of a disgruntled minority has carried this.

Whichever way you boil it down and dissect it, anything to to with british or non indigenous is perceived as bad / to be punished / eradicated - whatever

* I think this is a good thing, I also think all minorities should have representation in parliament. How we do that I don't know.

Colonisation as a practice is bad. Absolutely there are some very positive things that come out of it, and it led to the country we have today. However, landing on another countries shores, and claiming the land for your own, with no regard for the indigenous peoples and their way of living is an unethical thing to do. Add to that that the justification for it was that the indigenous people were viewed as inferior and not fully human and it’s not something to celebrate. I view it similar to how we view dropping the atom bomb. It did achieve a greater good of ending the war, at the time it was very legitimate to think it was the right course of action, and it still may be. But it killed millions of innocent people, and the negative effects of it are still being felt today. We can acknowledge why it occurred, the good things it did, but we also need to be mindful of the other side and thus it’s probably not something we should celebrate.

The argument around taking the Union Jack off the flag to me is about whether or not we want to be independent from Britain. I believe we should be.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Colonisation as a practice is bad

Yes it is, like what Vlad is attempting now and what Xi will attempt in the future. Has been going on since the inception of human kind

Add to that that the justification for it was that the indigenous people were viewed as inferior

Right >now< you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who aligns with this view.

The argument around taking the Union Jack off the flag to me is about whether or not we want to be independent from Britain. I believe we should be.

We ARE independent of Britain, we ARE a separate nation with our own parliament laws and societal model, albeit very similar. None the less we are vey much independent.

Without going down a rabbit hole the ONLY thing that ties us as 'dependent' is our head of state and in reality has pretty much zero influence. Roylion will explain this better.

Your beef is with inescapable history, like it or lump it britain is the founder of the current nation we're all a part of. That's our history.

If it wasn't britain, it would've been another world power of the time, could've been the dutch a coupla hundred years earlier for instance. Then we'd all be complaining we're not independent of the dutch

 

[Rob R]

Fair enough, this is one busy flag you have in mind.

True, it will be hard to come up with an inclusive design.

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[Soggy2112]

Yes it is, like what Vlad is attempting now and what Xi will attempt in the future. Has been going on since the inception of human kind

Right >now< you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who aligns with this view.

We ARE independent of Britain, we ARE a separate nation with our own parliament laws and societal model, albeit very similar. None the less we are vey much independent.

Without going down a rabbit hole the ONLY thing that ties us as 'dependent' is our head of state and in reality has pretty much zero influence. Roylion will explain this better.

Your beef is with inescapable history, like it or lump it britain is the founder of the current nation we're all a part of. That's our history.

If it wasn't britain, it would've been another world power of the time, could've been the dutch a coupla hundred years earlier for instance. Then we'd all be complaining we're not independent of the dutch

I agree it absolutely is our history. I’m not advocating that we rewrite history.

But a flag is not about preserving history. It’s about celebrating and uniting a country. Putting the Union Jack on there as a representation of that part of our history, both the good and bad does not unite.

It’s the same as the Australia Day argument, what’s the point in a national day or national flag that excludes certain groups of Australians?

I don’t have a beef with our history, I’m one of those British descendants, and am very glad to live in the country that I do today. I do however believe that we are not adequately taught our history as Australians, particularly the darker side, celebrating the Union Jack by putting it on our flag IMO contributes to that, in the same way maintaining the monarchy in our political system, even if it is purely symbolic.

On a slightly less significant note, I also kind of think it’s dumb that when we play against England/UK, we’re flying their flag.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But a flag is not about preserving history.

Not 'preserving' but identifying history, every nations flag is a representation of that and much much more - like the unity you mentioned. Like it or lump the fact is britain colonized / stole / invaded whatever term you wanna use and here we are. It's history that cannot be changed.

I don’t have a beef with our history,

Then you're in contradiction with your own argument. see below.

celebrating the Union Jack by putting it on our flag IMO contributes to that,

There are actually good things about britain for this country to celebrate, problem is, being human nature we all immediately look at the bad and dismiss any of the good because of the bad.

On a slightly less significant note, I also kind of think it’s dumb that when we play against England/UK, we’re flying their flag.

Well this is odd, are you suggesting that for all commonwealth (that are sovereign and independent in their own right) nations? Should we all represent britian in all competition, be it sport or otherwise?

Why not just live under british rule completely?

Further, would you suggest this for other nations colonized by other previous world powers like the spanish or french?

 

[Carringbush2010]

True, it will be hard to come up with an inclusive design.

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I guess my point is that there's no point of having a flag if it doesn't identify / represent the nation.