Don't be misled: AOD9604 is definitely a performance-enhancing drug

[Ancient Tiger]

Probably because the results were negative and of no interest because the drug was abandoned due to lack of efficacy.

Tis is why I specifically asked him, based on AODs properties, if large multiple doses would make a difference and he said very unlikely. He insists its not a ped and essentially does nothing.

I'm sorry but negative results are often just as important to publish as positive ones. Without publication, nobody knows what dosages were used, how many times subjects were dosed, what their caloric intake and exercise program was over the course of the trial, etc. etc. Were they tested against controls? Was it a blinded study? Were the subjects randomly assigned to each arm (control or AOD)?Many of these peptides do not work unless there is a heavy exercise regime and large protein intake happening concurrently.

He must write up his results if he wants us to take his opinion seriously.

 

[mxett]

I'm sorry but negative results are often just as important to publish as positive ones. Without publication, nobody knows what dosages were used, how many times subjects were dosed, what their caloric intake and exercise program was over the course of the trial, etc. etc. Were they tested against controls? Was it a blinded study? Were the subjects randomly assigned to each arm (control or AOD)?Many of these peptides do not work unless there is a heavy exercise regime and large protein intake happening concurrently.

He must write up his results if he wants us to take his opinion seriously.

Couldnt agree more with your first sentence. But this drug didnt make it to production in its intended form. Therefore the results arent relevant to anyone and would probably never be published by a reputable journal.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Couldnt agree more with your first sentence. But this drug didnt make it to production in its intended form. Therefore the results arent relevant to anyone and would probably never be published by a reputable journal.

Exactly. So we still have no idea about its efficacy in large frequent doses, just opinion.
I would think that Calzada pulled the plug on this drug because the bad press it was receiving would ultimately damage its brand more than supply the profits it was hoping from it. Call that another educated opinion!

 

[DudleyB]

I have a mate who is a Magistrate and he says that every single day he gets some numpty who wants to argue some quasi legal point (with zero knowledge of the law) and it is always along the line that either the crt has no authority or local govt has no authority.

This is pretty much what the bombers are running with. I dont get care what loopholes you think you have, what legal advice you think you have or what court you think you are going to go to - every court will tell you the same thing - WADA IS THE AUTHORITY ON THIS.

If WADA says its banned - its banned.

 

[mxett]

Exactly. So we still have no idea about its efficacy in large frequent doses, just opinion.
I would think that Calzada pulled the plug on this drug because the bad press it was receiving would ultimately damage its brand more than supply the profits it was hoping from it. Call that another educated opinion!

Hence I asked the researcher if large doses would make a difference, to performance enhancement anyway.

I think they pulled the pin on AOD because its a dud at pretty much everything

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Hence I asked the researcher if large doses would make a difference, to performance enhancement anyway.

I think they pulled the pin on AOD because its a dud at pretty much everything

You can ask the researchers anything. Any researcher worth their salt, would not speculate on something they have not tested. The comment should have been, "all we can definitively say is at the doses tested, the exercise program instituted,the caloric and protein intake allowed, there were no anabolic effects or fat loss noted".

 

[Gigantor]

So you are saying that every club injects its players?

Big statement. Please provide evidence to support your argument.

I said every club has a supplements program.

It's not a big statement at all - it's widely known and accepted.

Players get injected for all sort sorts of reasons, and it has happened since at least the 1980s.

 

[Gigantor]

Real supplements don't need to be injected.

Who says?

It's reasonable for people to find the concept of injections unpalatable, but there are countless good reasons for people to receive injections.

 

[bad setanta]

At least you are honest about it.

Most of your fellow Carlton supporters in here however are cowards with your views but hiding behind "concerns for the safety of the players".

Gutless wonders.

The only cowards and gutless wonders here are you and your club!

 

[Gigantor]

I have a mate who is a Magistrate and he says that every single day he gets some numpty who wants to argue some quasi legal point (with zero knowledge of the law) and it is always along the line that either the crt has no authority or local govt has no authority.

This is pretty much what the bombers are running with. I dont get care what loopholes you think you have, what legal advice you think you have or what court you think you are going to go to - every court will tell you the same thing - WADA IS THE AUTHORITY ON THIS.

If WADA says its banned - its banned.

A magistrate? Pffft.

Potentially this involves the big guns - and the courts will listen.

 

[mxett]

You can ask the researchers anything. Any researcher worth their salt, would not speculate on something they have not tested. The comment should have been, "all we can definitively say is at the doses tested, the exercise program instituted,the caloric and protein intake allowed, there were no anabolic effects or fat loss noted".

His comments obviously took into account the fact AOD was specifically designed NOT promote muscle growth, and has shown no evidence of doing so at any dose tested or in fact in animal studies

 

[DudleyB]

A magistrate? Pffft.

Potentially this involves the big guns - and the courts will listen.

Err what?

Oh do tell. Who are you? Michael Kirby? Listen to what? There is no argument.
Tell me in your own words what you think Essendon's case is? Im all ears.

 

[DudleyB]

His comments obviously took into account the fact AOD was specifically designed NOT promote muscle growth, and has shown no evidence of doing so at any dose tested or in fact in animal studies

Ok mxett - so tell me in your own words what you think Essendon's case is.
They took aod because at the time they thought it provided a benefit in recovery but it turns out that it may not so that means they are in the clear? Is that right?

 

[jenny61_99]

At least you are honest about it.

Most of your fellow Carlton supporters in here however are cowards with your views but hiding behind "concerns for the safety of the players".

Gutless wonders.

Some of us are genuinely here because of concern for player safety - not just yours, but ours as well. This could be any one of our clubs that did this, unfortunately for you it is not another club. Yes there are trolls in here (like every thread on bf) but some of us are absolutely mortified by what personnel at your club have allowed to occur.

 

[mxett]

Ok mxett - so tell me in your own words what you think Essendon's case is.
They took aod because at the time they thought it provided a benefit in recovery but it turns out that it may not so that means they are in the clear? Is that right?

No. I agree they took it for the potential recovery, but they believed they had some sort of approval. What that is I have no idea.

Personally I think dank was given approval to run a supplement program which included AOD and other substances approved by doc Reid. I think he then expanded his program to include a trial and other substances without permission, and excluded Reid.

 

[jenny61_99]

No. I agree they took it for the potential recovery, but they believed they had some sort of approval. What that is I have no idea.

Personally I think dank was given approval to run a supplement program which included AOD and other substances approved by doc Reid. I think he then expanded his program to include a trial and other substances without permission, and excluded Reid.

That's certainly a possibility. I guess anything is a possibility. But if its true, then a lot of people have failed in the roles to protect the players.

 

[Barry Zuckercorn]

How is it performance enhancing,did it help win matches for Essendon last season?

Completely irrelevant.

 

[sherb]

At least you are honest about it.

Most of your fellow Carlton supporters in here however are cowards with your views but hiding behind "concerns for the safety of the players".

Gutless wonders.

The irony being that the ones here not expressing concern for the health and welfare of Essendon players are Essendon supporters.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

A magistrate? Pffft.

Potentially this involves the big guns - and the courts will listen.

What court exactly?
This is not a criminal matter, it break the rules of a football league which clubs and players agreed to adhere to.

AFL house can hand down a decision on essendon's guilt
Wada's court can hand down a decision on essendons guilt.

And if they aren't happy with the result they can appeal to the sports court of arbitration on the punishment, essendon can appeal the punishment is unjustified etc they argue those loopholes there and yes the court can agree with essendon but they cannot rule wether essendon took an illegal drug or not, the most they can do is reverse fines and suspensions.

The efc would still be found guilty under the AFL and Wada.

I keep hearing this "we'll take it to the court's" bullshit, what court?

 

[Gigantor]

So you think the WADA code sits above the Australian Parliament, the Austalian constitution and the Australian legal system?

That's an extraordinary admission.

Furthermore, ASADA is a government instrumentality - it's very being is a matter of Australian law - absolutely everything it does is contestable in the Australian courts - everything.

 

[jenny61_99]

So you think the WADA code sits above the Australian Parliament, the Austalian constitution and the Australian legal system?

That's an extraordinary admission.

Furthermore, ASADA is a government instrumentality - it's very being is a matter of Australian law - absolutely everything it does is contestable in the Australian courts - everything.

In the sporting arena, CAS is the highest court. If you are signed up to the WADA code, you are governed by their rules.

 

[Snake_Baker]

So you think the WADA code sits above the Australian Parliament, the Austalian constitution and the Australian legal system?

The Australian government is a signatory to WADA through ASADA and the AOC.

Do you seriously believe they are going to make a mockery of this nations international standing because of the freaking essendon football club? Are you for real?

It's a sports governance issue and the government and courts will leave the issue to the sports governing bodies unless an issue of due process is undermined.

 

[Ando727]

Couldnt agree more with your first sentence. But this drug didnt make it to production in its intended form. Therefore the results arent relevant to anyone and would probably never be published by a reputable journal.

Any ideas on why Dank was so keen on administering it to your players, then? Why mess with it at all if it was all a big bust?

 

[IanW]

So you think the WADA code sits above the Australian Parliament, the Austalian constitution and the Australian legal system?

That's an extraordinary admission.

Furthermore, ASADA is a government instrumentality - it's very being is a matter of Australian law - absolutely everything it does is contestable in the Australian courts - everything.

And the procedures that are being outlined are the ones outlined in the ASADA Act - for example, the right to appeal to the AAT is in 14 (4).

The link to WADA is in 15, and then back to the definition of a 'sporting administration body' top include WADA.

Good luck with convincing the AAT and up that an experimental drug shouldnt be prohibited by the section of the WADA rules that prohibit experimental drugs.

 

[Mattrox]

Who says?

It's reasonable for people to find the concept of injections unpalatable, but there are countless good reasons for people to receive injections.

It is clearly a therapy. A therapy to raise growth hormone levels.