Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?

[Randall Stevens]

I was living in Sydney in 1995 when Lockett moved to Swans. In 1994 you could get free tickets to Swans games at any pub around the SCG just before the games and average SCG crowd was 9,000. By 1996 the average Swans SCG crowd was 26,000. In just two years Swans went from 15th most attended home ground to 7th most attended home ground. No other player has ever had that sort of impact on the game (Franklin for example moved the dial from average 29k at SCG to average 31k).

As great as Lockett was - and he has very strong claims to being number 1 on this list - these crowd numbers are a bit misleading.
In 1994 - the year before Plugger joined Sydney - average SCG crowds were 9,814. The Swans also finished last with a 4-18 record.
In 1995 - Lockett's first year at Sydney - average home attendances rose to 15,976 as the team improved to an 8-14 win/loss record.
In 1996 SCG crowds did average 26,850. However, this included two finals for a team which finished on top of the ladder.

Now, undoubtably Lockett contributed very significantly to both the improved team performance and by extension the larger crowds. However, I think the crowd increase would have been more to do with winning games than Pluggers mere presence. If this was not the case there would have been a larger spike in attendance in ‘95.

Similar occurred in the 80’s. In 1985 Sydney averaged 10,137 to home games with a 6-16 season. In 1986 they went 16-6 and averaged 25,847 at the SCG.

So while Plugger was awesome for Sydney, I think it is a stretch to credit him entitely for the increase in attendances.

 

[kreuze_missile]

Lockett for me.

Could only imagine how much better he could have been with some proper conditioning.

 

[Ed_Gein]

Lockett 1st. Physical beast that could dominate 1-on-1, deceptively quick off the mark, put the fear in any defender that tried to play in front, and was incredibly accurate in front of goal.

Carey 2nd for me. I think my hatred for North even to this day stems from how much I hated playing them with Carey in his pomp. Fantastic player who used to run rings around a great defender in Dunkley at times.

Ablett or Franklin 3rd. Probably the two most enjoyable to watch from the list. Both athletic beasts that could dominate in a few different positions.

Happy to have had two of those play for the Swans.

 

[Mixed Results]

Carey from 1993 to 2000 averaged 18.4 disposals, 7.6 marks and 3.1 goals. This was done over a 170-game sample. It's arguably the most consistent dominant stretch by a forward ever.

He doesn't compare with the pure goal numbers that some of these players achieved at FF, but his marking ability and hurt factor all over the ground essentially perfected the CHF position. If you're making an all-time team of the greatest players ever, then Carey at CHF is perhaps the easiest selection of the entire team.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Dunstall was a better player than Lockett, I’ll die on that hill.

 

[PhatBoy]

Carey from 1993 to 2000 averaged 18.4 disposals, 7.6 marks and 3.1 goals. This was done over a 170-game sample. It's arguably the most consistent dominant stretch by a forward ever.

He doesn't compare with the pure goal numbers that some of these players achieved at FF, but his marking ability and hurt factor all over the ground essentially perfected the CHF position. If you're making an all-time team of the greatest players ever, then Carey at CHF is perhaps the easiest selection of the entire team.

154 games
15.3 touches
3.6 goals
6 marks

From a half forward flank

That was Ablett’s stretch for the 8 seasons before he moved to full forward - it’s pretty bloody impressive in itself for a guy not playing as a KPP. High possession numbers I would assume for that position in that era (im not really sure who it sort of compares to from that period??). The goal numbers alone stack up to most full forwards let alone flankers.

It probably fluctuated more than Carey’s did: he had one season (89) of 19.4 touches, 6.5 marks and 3.8 goals a game. Ridiculous output

 

[stfan]

Dunstall was a better player than Lockett, I’ll die on that hill.

Interesting theory.

Now just imagine Dunstall playing FF to the St Kilda Team that Lockett played with.

And then imagine Lockett playing FF to the Hawthorn Team that Dunstall played with.

 

[Longmembrey]

Put it this way. If I had to pick one bloke kicking at goal to win me a Grand Final. I know who I'm picking.


J.D

Not Dom Sheed?

 

[Xtreme]

Put it this way. If I had to pick one bloke kicking at goal to win me a Grand Final. I know who I'm picking.


J.D

Legend!

 

[Jeremias]

Not sure what Brown is doing in this thread; he's nowhere near any of the others listed. There are many better key forwards that could have been included instead.

Carey / Ablett / Lockett the 3 best of this lot. Not sure what order I'd have them in but I think there's a good argument for any of them.

 

[Xtreme]

Not sure what Brown is doing in this thread; he's nowhere near any of the others listed. There are many better key forwards that could have been included instead.

Carey / Ablett / Lockett the 3 best of this lot. Not sure what order I'd have them in but I think there's a good argument for any of them.

Brown is the best key forward in the AFL (2000-) era. Would pick him in my side ahead of Buddy every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Interesting theory.

Now just imagine Dunstall playing FF to the St Kilda Team that Lockett played with.

And then imagine Lockett playing FF to the Hawthorn Team that Dunstall played with.

Just the better player.

St Kilda would have still been underachievers with Dunstall I am sure - just like they were with Lockett. It’s St Kilda.

 

[Blackhawk42]

I honestly don't understand why Brown is in this discussion. He's last by whatever cute metric you want to use.

 

[Xtreme]

I honestly don't understand why Brown is in this discussion. He's last by whatever cute metric you want to use.

He overtakes Lloyd, Lockett, Ablett and Carey on premierships and performing in grand finals

 

[Blackhawk42]

He overtakes Lloyd, Lockett, Ablett and Carey on premierships and performing in grand finals

So does Jack Reiwoldt, who also has more Coleman's

 

[Xtreme]

So does Jack Reiwoldt, who also has more Coleman's

Jack the greatest forward of all time in the AFL era. Richmond are so lucky having GOAT Dusty and Jack on their team!!!

 

[boncer34]

He overtakes Lloyd, Lockett, Ablett and Carey on premierships and performing in grand finals

Which one of his 5 goals in 4 Grand Finals impressed you the most?

 

[Xtreme]

Which one of his 5 goals in 4 Grand Finals impressed you the most?

Don't need to just kick goals to perform on the day. He played his role to perfection.

 

[PhatBoy]

Don't need to just kick goals to perform on the day. He played his role to perfection.

Which was what, being a third wheel to two dominant key forwards and having very little impact one way or the other on the fortunes of his team in general at that time?

 

[Jeremias]

Brown is the best key forward in the AFL (2000-) era. Would pick him in my side ahead of Buddy every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Not even close.

It’s not a criticism of Brown, but I’m not sure he’d even be in the top 5 in that time frame.

 

[VinnieB]

I have to say I enjoyed watching Gary Ablett Snr play footy more than any of the others listed. I don’t think it’s even close when it comes to entertainment.

But Wayne Carey is probably the best of them all IMO.

 

[Sphynx]

He overtakes Lloyd, Lockett, Ablett and Carey on premierships and performing in grand finals

Carey was great in 99'. Pagan moved him into the center for a period and the game swung. (He had 2 center clearances)

He had 17 disposals, 5 marks (4 contested) and kicked 2.0

Fairly solid game from a CHF.

in 96' he had 22 touches kicked 1.3 and had 9 marks. Again, a more than solid game.....

In 98' he had 18 touches and kicked 1.4.

So he averaged 19 touches, 6 marks and 1.25 (2.3 behinds) goals per game in his GF's,

He was straight kicking away from having probably one of the best GF records ever.

What was Brown's record again?


We are also talking about one of the great finals performers ever.


EDIT - Brown averaged 14 touches, 5 marks and 1.25 goals per game in GF's.

 

[Mr39]

Brown should not be in this list.

 

[Macca19]

People get seduced by Brown winning 3 flags.

 

[faible]

Don't need to just kick goals to perform on the day. He played his role to perfection.

Defensive forward role, like Billy Frampton?