Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?

[Cyclops]

Franklin the best forward flank, not a KPP.

Carey the best CHF.

Lockett the best old fashioned FF, lazy and unfit and undisciplined but the best kick ever.

Ablett the God of football. A winger. Ridiculous he was able to play FF yet he's in the discussion as GOAT FF.

Dunstall if you want to win. Fast, strong/fat, actually fit, superb defensive forward, professional. He and Carey would flourish today.

Lloyd a lesser Dunstall, and our Bomber friend is right, criminally under rated.

J Brown brave and effective but injury prone and simply not in tge same bracket as these.

J Riewoldt unlucky, superb at all facets of the game and only Carey a better leader in this group.

 

[Mr Meow]

Another way of looking at it is Buddy has kicked 26% more goals than his next nearest rival (Jack Reiwoldt). Admittedly Hawkins will pass Reiwoldt this year but even so, Lockett did not kick 26% more goals than his next nearest rival.

We'll never know whether that's because Lockett's contemporaries were just better players. However I think very few would argue Hawkins and Riewoldt come close to GAS and Dunstall. And not just from a statistical standpoint.

 

[QuietB]

Not really.

GAS - GPG: 4.16 SPG: 6.94 6+: 62 8+: 26 10+ 12
Lockett - GPG: 4.84 SPG: 6.96 6+: 102 8+: 47 10+: 21
Dunstall - GPG: 4.66 SPG: 7.05 6+: 90 8+: 42 10+: 16
Carey - GPG: 2.67 SPG: 4.35 6+: 20 8+: 5 10+: 2

Franklin - GPG: 3.01 SPG: 5.11 6+: 31 8+: 13 10+: 2

You could make a case he matches up alright to Carey, albeit Carey played CHF which no doubt impacted his goal tally and bag producing potential. He is a long way short of Lockett and Dunstall, and although he scored more goals than Ablett it was in more games, at a lower per game basis and with Ablett spending the first two thirds of his career either at HFF or on a wing.

So no. Buddy is not in the conversation for the top 4. Tenuously to Carey but the other 3 are comfortably better than Franklin.
TBF, conceding Carey is doing Duck's career a disservice too.

All the top 4 you rave about were playing one out with the entire 50 to themselves.

Can you imagine what Buddy would have done with “Pagans paddock” for his whole career.

It would have been frightening.

 

[kreuze_missile]

Kenerhan

 

[Saab NLAW]

Kenerhan

I love this post, made even more absolutely ridiculous by the butchering of his name, and it's a Carlton fan too which makes it even better

 

[kreuze_missile]

I love this post, made even more absolutely ridiculous by the butchering of his name, and it's a Carlton fan too which makes it even better

Only key forward in history to dominate VFL, AFL & SANFL.

Disrespectul he's not on the list.

 

[boncer34]

Only key forward in history to dominate VFL, AFL & SANFL.

Disrespectul he's not on the list.

View attachment 1883272

As disrespectful as not knowing his name?

 

[kreuze_missile]

As disrespectful as not knowing his name?

Deflecting.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

All the top 4 you rave about were playing one out with the entire 50 to themselves.

Can you imagine what Buddy would have done with “Pagans paddock” for his whole career.

It would have been frightening.

Can you imagine the first 4 with modern fitness and training standards, not to mention ground conditions.

All 4 would have played on some mud heaps in their time.

And only 3 were one out. One was a HFF/WING for a lot of his career

 

[Ricmel]

And only 3 were one out. One was a HFF/WING for a lot of his career

Lockett and Dunstall were rarely one out. Lockett had opponent and then usually minimum one, often two players falling back on him. No coach would leave Lockett one on one with the 50 to himself. Would have kicked 2000.

 

[The 747]

I only saw Matthews play right at the end of his career.

Carey is the best player I have seen, followed by Ablett Senior. Seems the poll agrees.

Ablett Senior had the most ridiculous natural talent but Carey was the most important player in a structural sense, all of North's scoring chains basically went via Carey.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Only key forward in history to dominate VFL, AFL & SANFL.

Disrespectul he's not on the list.

View attachment 1883272

If players like Brown are being included in the conversation then I agree he should also be in it, much better player than Brown

 

[boncer34]

Deflecting.

What were you deflecting from

 

[ferball]

All the top 4 you rave about were playing one out with the entire 50 to themselves.

Can you imagine what Buddy would have done with “Pagans paddock” for his whole career.

It would have been frightening.

By the same token Carey would probably be the best mid of all time if he played today. Ablett Sr would be in the convo too (if he had the discipline to train hard enough.)

Not to mention the easier run they'd get from the umps. You say they were playing one out but Carey was nearly always double or triple teamed and it was only his tank that got him free at times, and his insane ability to win contests. In the 90s defenders got away with so much more in terms of brutality against forwards.

Its hard to go past Plugger in terms of pure FFs, Dunstall is close imo. But the game has changed since then. Buddy is a prototype modern key forward - his mobility was incredible and gave him a huge advantage. The best KPFs in future will be following in his footsteps. Pagan's Paddock was originally developed for smaller more mobile forwards but it worked for Carey cos he could run all day and was a great contested mark, but yeah Franklin would have been incredibly hard to stop in that set up.

But for me its still Ablett and Carey (in either order, so hard to pick) then the rest. Both of them were so strong in the contest and imposed themselves on games even when their sides couldn't win.

 

[kreuze_missile]

If players like Brown are being included in the conversation then I agree he should also be in it, much better player than Brown

Sticks was a significantly better footballer than Jonathan Brown.

Brown gets remembered for acts of bravery but I'd argue that Sticks was tougher for longer, and played in a more physical era of footy.

Brown only led the goalkicking for his side 5 times. Sticks did it 11 times at Carlton + 2 for Glenelg.

Sticks kicked 100+ more goals in the AFL in far fewer games, and an additional 266 in the SANFL.

Brown didn't captain any premierships. Sticks captained two. Sticks the 2nd longest serving captain in AFL history behind Selwood.

Sticks a 5x All Australian, Brown just twice.

Stick 66 goals in State of Origin. Brown just 2.

Jono Brown has 1 Coleman. That's all he has over Sticks.


mods - time to add Sticks to the poll. I will make my case for Brendan Fevola shortly.

 

[The 747]

Stick 66 goals in State of Origin. Brown just 2.

Don't disagree with your post but this bit is really dumb, even for a character poster like you.

 

[HairyO]

View attachment 1883244

Thought this should be put here for some context.

Also should point out Buddy kicked more than 70 goals after this chart was made.

Where is Hudson? His adjusted would put him on about 2,000.

I have bias so I will give Lockett extra points to make him equal with Dunstall.

Dunstall / Lockett
Carey
Ablett
Buddy
Lloyd
Brown

 

[kreuze_missile]

Don't disagree with your post but this bit is really dumb, even for a character poster like you.

Sticks proved he could do it against the best of the best back when origin actually meant something.

Needs to be considered.

 

[LordLucifer]

Plugger has this all wrapped up !!

 

[HairyO]

Sticks proved he could do it against the best of the best back when origin actually meant something.

Needs to be considered.

SOO stopped meaning much in the 1970s. By the 1980s VFL coaches started hating it and always looked for any reason for their stars to be omitted.

 

[LordLucifer]

Sticks was a significantly better footballer than Jonathan Brown.

Brown gets remembered for acts of bravery but I'd argue that Sticks was tougher for longer, and played in a more physical era of footy.

Brown only led the goalkicking for his side 5 times. Sticks did it 11 times at Carlton + 2 for Glenelg.

Sticks kicked 100+ more goals in the AFL in far fewer games, and an additional 266 in the SANFL.

Brown didn't captain any premierships. Sticks captained two. Sticks the 2nd longest serving captain in AFL history behind Selwood.

Sticks a 5x All Australian, Brown just twice.

Stick 66 goals in State of Origin. Brown just 2.

Jono Brown has 1 Coleman. That's all he has over Sticks.


mods - time to add Sticks to the poll. I will make my case for Brendan Fevola shortly.

Stop embarrassing yourself and all other level-headed Blues fans at the same time.

 

[faible]

Brown being in this discussion is perplexing, and as an Essendon fan I'd rate Lloyd very highly but he's clearly not at the same level as the others either.

Franklin was further ahead of his peers than any other on the list, he's criminally underrated if you're just basing it on his goals kicked.

 

[Sphynx]

Brown being in this discussion is perplexing, and as an Essendon fan I'd rate Lloyd very highly but he's clearly not at the same level as the others either.

Franklin was further ahead of his peers than any other on the list, he's criminally underrated if you're just basing it on his goals kicked.

Lloyd was just about unplayable for a number of years.

People saying he doesn't belong on this list, either weren't alive or have dementia.

He's well ahead of Brown imo.


TBH, all of the above (apart from Brown for the first half of his career) were bonafide FF's.

You can say what you like about Franklin roaming up the ground, but he was as close to a stay at home FF as there was (besides Fevola) in the modern era.

Carey doesn't really belong in these comparisons as he was a genuine CHF, not a FF that just gets out of the 50 a few times a game, because there was a Coleman medal FF sitting in the goal square of Carey's side.

People invariably just go to goals kicked, when he had so much more to his all round game than every single one of the above, the only real comparable one is Ablett, because of his background as a mid and his mobility for his size and strength.

Despite all their successes and massive individual seasons, I still don't think any of the above were better than the 93-95' version of Carey (before he blew out his shoulders and stacked on the muscle to compensate) at all of their individual peaks, even Ablett.

 

[IAMDASH]

View attachment 1883244

Thought this should be put here for some context.

Also should point out Buddy kicked more than 70 goals after this chart was made.

Interesting chart. Source...?

Great to see Bernie Quinlan listed here. Started his career as more an on-baller before moving to FF where he kicked 100 goals multiple years. Very much in the style of Franklin, N Riewoldt, Ablett. Definitely a better kick than Franklin and Riewoldt.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Put it this way. If I had to pick one bloke kicking at goal to win me a Grand Final. I know who I'm picking.


J.D