Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Grasshopper17]

I think losing Dale Tapping as our midfield coach could be a major factor in the drop off in our midfield pressure and performance this year. I seem to recall that Neale,Lyons etc had a lot of respect for him and I wonder if there is a bit of disenchantment with the new midfield coach. Just a gut feeling looking at the body language of guys like Lyons who seem a bit disgruntled.
Could be completely wrong but things just haven’t looked quite right this year. What I don’t understand is why we can’t seem to adjust when we suffer the same issues in the centre square almost every week.

You could be right. But our midfield were pretty poor defensively for much of last season also.

Particularly when Lachie Neale played - the numbers that back this up are beyond emphatic.

 

[mpal6]

Ok, I'm going to be annoyingly glass half full, but how much better do we need to defend by?

The presenters on Fox Footy need data shovelled to them so they can have things to talk about.

We're 18th without the ball yadda yadda yadda, put a line through us we're done.

I'll admit we shat the bed against Melbourne (horrible game, no appetite for the contest), outside of that we've lost to Freo 14pts, Geelong 10pts, Essendon (without a backline) 10pts, Richmond 7pts, Hawthorn 5pts.

People writing us off are pulling the trigger a bit early IMO. We're not that far off it that we can't adjust. But yeah, might need one or two of our staple players from the last three seasons being replaced.

Regarding the bolded bit - The appetite to adjust regularly wasn't there which is the most frustrating part about this season. What if we adjusted, what if we played some in the 2s from start, what if we pushed staple players out when they are not in form to get them going in reserves - there are just so many what ifs about us this season. Like many of them mentioned, in spite of all these missing tweaks we were running top 4 until last week. That is pretty amazing. It just shows when we're on, we can take anyone on (minus Melbourne based on available evidence in 2022).

All the losses you mentioned bar one, there was a way to win but we couldn't close it out. This is why it looks like an almost season for us where we may end up underachieving. It'll be fascinating to see if we'll adjust from now through finals or just roll with plan A everywhere.

 

[BigCat2]

I think we have shown historically to adjust, in season. I recall clearly in 2019, after the mid season break, we went from a predominantly corridor team to a more down the line, territory sort of team. This was done as we were getting scored heavily against on turnovers in the middle of the ground. With this tweak we immediately conceded lower scores and went on our 9 game winning streak. I remember this well, as it was brought up in a podcast discussing AFL game play, involving Daniel Hoyne from Championdata.

I think it is harder to do this sort of thing now during season. Teams have seen a good amount of us over the last few years and worked out counters to our strategies. There is more predictability. Given it is hard to "surprise" opposition, the main thing you can do is to consistently execute your game plan, and play better than your opposition - which is difficult to do all the time.

I am not particularly hopeful about this year, although if a few things go our way and our opponents have off days we might still get somewhere. I have half an eye to next year for a mini-reset, with more focus on pace and defensive pressure across the team, especially a lot of hard 2 way running. The last few years have shown us that to win the flag, you need a consistent, hard-working, 2 way running team that limits opposition scoring and hurt them on the turnover. Our point of difference might be scoring from stoppages and a dynamic forward line, but we are not consistently superior to our opposition that we can make up for defensive lapses.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I think we have shown historically to adjust, in season. I recall clearly in 2019, after the mid season break, we went from a predominantly corridor team to a more down the line, territory sort of team. This was done as we were getting scored heavily against on turnovers in the middle of the ground. With this tweak we immediately conceded lower scores and went on our 9 game winning streak. I remember this well, as it was brought up in a podcast discussing AFL game play, involving Daniel Hoyne from Championdata.

I think it is harder to do this sort of thing now during season. Teams have seen a good amount of us over the last few years and worked out counters to our strategies. There is more predictability. Given it is hard to "surprise" opposition, the main thing you can do is to consistently execute your game plan, and play better than your opposition - which is difficult to do all the time.

I am not particularly hopeful about this year, although if a few things go our way and our opponents have off days we might still get somewhere. I have half an eye to next year for a mini-reset, with more focus on pace and defensive pressure across the team, especially a lot of hard 2 way running. The last few years have shown us that to win the flag, you need a consistent, hard-working, 2 way running team that limits opposition scoring and hurt them on the turnover. Our point of difference might be scoring from stoppages and a dynamic forward line, but we are not consistently superior to our opposition that we can make up for defensive lapses.

Yeah this is great. More or less agree with everything, but laid out far better than I could.

One thing I'd comment about is teams working out counters to our strategies. A lot of coaches (ours included) are now very open saying at press conferences, "we have our reasons for x, y and z but I'm not going to tell you what they are." To me this simply generates a false economy; eventually, everyone gets found out, and you find out how the emperor looks with no clothes on, so to speak.

I remember Leigh Matthews once said (paraphrasing) "we want to be in a position where the opposition could have our entire game plan slid under their hotel door, but still be able to go out and execute it effectively." That's an incredibly powerful position to be in - when your opponent knows exactly what you're going to do, but you do it anyway, successfully.

So pulling back from that, it seems counter intuitive but to me it is actually best to "get found out" as quickly as possible. That way you actually get forced to develop and adapt your game plan more quickly, instead of having that happen to you in September. You may even get found out a few times in a season, which might mean your game plan is bullet proof by September.

Even if it's not though, you know exactly where you stand, you don't achieve an over-inflated final ladder position, like perhaps we did in 2019 and even 2020. Sure, you trade off a bit of short term success, but if you're not winning the flag, apart from getting finals experience there's no benefit to finishing higher on the ladder anyway. And finishing lower gives you better draft picks up boot.

So I'd really love to see Fages and the team become more open about our playing style and what we're trying to do. Of course teams will cotton on more quickly - that's the whole point. To me it's much preferable than getting all the way to September and "choking".

 

[Squizz89]

I actually think the way we played in the first quarter on the weekend was an outlier rather than the norm. We seemed to want to run and carry and go through the corridor at every opportunity. Now whether that was by design or Richmond’s lack of pressure and catching them off guard, who knows but probably a bit of both.

I think the dump kick down the line, contest and try and either take a contested mark or create a stoppage and go again has been our plan A for the last 4 years. It obviously hasn’t worked come finals time anyway, but why I think it’s struggling even more in the H&A this year is obviously 2 of the prime movers in Lyons and Zorko who have been part of that set up are now either past it or certainly down on what they’ve given previously. I’m also not sure whether Oscar and to a lesser extent McStay have been taking as many of those contested marks down the line which at least presented us the opportunity to try some overlap run.

I don’t think we have the cattle both fitness and speed wise to play like we did in the first quarter on the weekend for the whole match, as pretty to watch as it was.

 

[Dalions]

I actually think the way we played in the first quarter on the weekend was an outlier rather than the norm. We seemed to want to run and carry and go through the corridor at every opportunity. Now whether that was by design or Richmond’s lack of pressure and catching them off guard, who knows but probably a bit of both.

I think the dump kick down the line, contest and try and either take a contested mark or create a stoppage and go again has been our plan A for the last 4 years. It obviously hasn’t worked come finals time anyway, but why I think it’s struggling even more in the H&A this year is obviously 2 of the prime movers in Lyons and Zorko who have been part of that set up are now either past it or certainly down on what they’ve given previously. I’m also not sure whether Oscar and to a lesser extent McStay have been taking as many of those contested marks down the line which at least presented us the opportunity to try some overlap run.

I don’t think we have the cattle both fitness and speed wise to play like we did in the first quarter on the weekend for the whole match, as pretty to watch as it was.

To an extent though, we only played to what Richmond gave us.
In the bulk of the first half they gave us the corridor and we took it.
In the second half they closed up the corridor and forced us down the line.
Which didn’t work for us in this game because our forwards and Ruckman were unable to compete and Richmond always seemed to have more bodies at the fall of the ball.
Eric hinted at this by saying that the forwards played too deep in the second half and were unable to compete as a result.
So no matter how much it hurt on the weekend there were learnings to take from the game.

 

[a mayes ing]

I actually think the way we played in the first quarter on the weekend was an outlier rather than the norm. We seemed to want to run and carry and go through the corridor at every opportunity. Now whether that was by design or Richmond’s lack of pressure and catching them off guard, who knows but probably a bit of both.

I think the dump kick down the line, contest and try and either take a contested mark or create a stoppage and go again has been our plan A for the last 4 years. It obviously hasn’t worked come finals time anyway, but why I think it’s struggling even more in the H&A this year is obviously 2 of the prime movers in Lyons and Zorko who have been part of that set up are now either past it or certainly down on what they’ve given previously. I’m also not sure whether Oscar and to a lesser extent McStay have been taking as many of those contested marks down the line which at least presented us the opportunity to try some overlap run.

I don’t think we have the cattle both fitness and speed wise to play like we did in the first quarter on the weekend for the whole match, as pretty to watch as it was.

It seemed like it was Coleman who was taking most of those kicks in the corridor. He definitly has a license to go for those difficult kicks and why not, he was getting them every time. If we had Rich doing it instead of the long down the line like any kicker can do, then we would be much more dangerous.

 

[Thomasno]

I actually think the way we played in the first quarter on the weekend was an outlier rather than the norm. We seemed to want to run and carry and go through the corridor at every opportunity. Now whether that was by design or Richmond’s lack of pressure and catching them off guard, who knows but probably a bit of both.

I think the dump kick down the line, contest and try and either take a contested mark or create a stoppage and go again has been our plan A for the last 4 years. It obviously hasn’t worked come finals time anyway, but why I think it’s struggling even more in the H&A this year is obviously 2 of the prime movers in Lyons and Zorko who have been part of that set up are now either past it or certainly down on what they’ve given previously. I’m also not sure whether Oscar and to a lesser extent McStay have been taking as many of those contested marks down the line which at least presented us the opportunity to try some overlap run.

I don’t think we have the cattle both fitness and speed wise to play like we did in the first quarter on the weekend for the whole match, as pretty to watch as it was.

There was some talk a few weeks ago about the club being tight lipped on strategies come finals. One can only hope that the stuff we saw in the first half last weekend was part of that, because we looked lethal hunting in the corridor with kiddy calling the shots.

And I know part of it is Richmond tightening up in the second half, but it really looked like we were not considering even looking for corridor options in the second half for some reason.

 

[Dalions]

There was some talk a few weeks ago about the club being tight lipped on strategies come finals. One can only hope that the stuff we saw in the first half last weekend was part of that, because we looked lethal hunting in the corridor with kiddy calling the shots.

And I know part of it is Richmond tightening up in the second half, but it really looked like we were not considering even looking for corridor options in the second half for some reason.

Or, is it that we went into our shell thinking we had the game in the bag and went into game preservation mode far too early?

Or, because we tightened up and we’re no longer game enough to take the game on?

Or, was it fitness based because we had to run so hard defensively and had nothing left once we got the ball?

Or, was it that the forwards and mids ahead of the ball stopped trying to run and create some space to kick into?

Or, was it the mental fragitity of a team who can’t win on the big stage and when under pressure, just melt like butter?

Or, the MCG Hoodoo?

Or, just holding back and not wanting to give anything away in finals?

Or, All or none of the above?

 

[p4p1]

There was some talk a few weeks ago about the club being tight lipped on strategies come finals. One can only hope that the stuff we saw in the first half last weekend was part of that, because we looked lethal hunting in the corridor with kiddy calling the shots.

And I know part of it is Richmond tightening up in the second half, but it really looked like we were not considering even looking for corridor options in the second half for some reason.

The issue with that argument is that a loss in that game was always going to kick us out of the top 4. I would love for us to have a hidden strategy/secret weapon for the finals but it wouldn't make sense not to use it towards the end of the season when the top 4 is up for grabs.

 

[p4p1]

McCluggage is a huge runner as well.

Don't forget Starce

 

[Thomasno]

The issue with that argument is that a loss in that game was always going to kick us out of the top 4. I would love for us to have a hidden strategy/secret weapon for the finals but it wouldn't make sense not to use it towards the end of the season when the top 4 is up for grabs.

Maybe it’s as simple as they thought 7 goals up was enough, and hubris did the rest.

It’s all rampant speculation anyway, all I know is that we looked absolutely lethal when utilising the corridor, and then in the second half it was back to “old faithful” ie slow bombs to contests down the line. Even when opportunities were there in the corridor, they weren’t even considered. It was maddening to watch after a strategy that worked so well was abandoned completely.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

It really feels like the coach is David Teague

David Teague

Age

43

Ht

186cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.6

2star

K

6.2

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

5.0

1star

K

3.2

2star

HB

1.8

2star

M

2.2

3star

T

1.0

3star

2.0 except we have slightly better players than Carlton.

 

[Nathan Barley]

It really feels like the coach is David Teague 2.0 except we have slightly better players than Carlton.

In what way?

 

[Daniel_Rich]

It really feels like the coach is David Teague 2.0 except we have slightly better players than Carlton.

The Fagan bashing is getting a bit out of hand now. He takes us from the wooden spooners to a regular top 4 side and now he's David Teague? Jeeze.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

The Fagan bashing is getting a bit out of hand now. He takes us from the wooden spooners to a regular top 4 side and now he's David Teague? Jeeze.

If anything, I think David Noble’s tenure at North Melbourne was more like David Teague 2.0.

Let’s make one thing clear though, even though Fages hasn’t won a premiership yet in his tenure as coach here, he and other key personal (at the club) have turned this club around 100% from wooden spooners to consistently being premiership contenders in 5 years or so (as mentioned before)

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

In what way?

Shit defense.

 

[Nathan Barley]

s**t defense.

David Teague is the benchmark for teams with shit defences?

 

[BangyBangy]

The Fagan bashing is getting a bit out of hand now. He takes us from the wooden spooners to a regular top 4 side and now he's David Teague? Jeeze.

Nah, just a handful of negative posters who need to keep reiterating their opinions over & over again, with a handful of trolls thrown in for good measure, like that one.

My mouse has a scroll wheel, I use it often.

You'll find 99% of posters are level headed & well balanced (in big footy terms ) But if you don't have a problem with something you just don't post, so you don't see them.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

Nah, just a handful of negative posters who need to keep reiterating their opinions over & over again, with a handful of trolls thrown in for good measure, like that one.

My mouse has a scroll wheel, I use it often.

You'll find 99% of posters are level headed & well balanced (in big footy terms ) But if you don't have a problem with something you just don't post, so you don't see them.

99% seems way too high.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

99% seems way too high.

 

[Squizz89]

Fish sums it all up pretty well.

Champions' checklist: How Lions can get back in flag race

If Chris Fagan is to take his side deep in finals he needs to address some issues

t.co

 

[CarterS]

Fish sums it all up pretty well.

Champions' checklist: How Lions can get back in flag race

If Chris Fagan is to take his side deep in finals he needs to address some issues

t.co

Very astute especially the observation that Robinson, Lyons and Gardiner possibly deserve to be dropped.

 

[Sanchez365]

Bit of a big footy checklist of things in that article to be honest.

Mainly it's good to see us not flying completely under the radar, we need the blowtorch on us If anything is going to change.

 

[Thomasno]

Very astute especially the observation that Robinson, Lyons and Gardiner possibly deserve to be dropped.

100% agree on Robinson and Lyons, love them both for what they’ve done but currently just aren’t doing it; we would definitely benefit from the drive of a young gun looking to prove themselves (ie prior, dev).

Gardiner I will say has looked better the last couple weeks, last minute of the Richmond game aside. Willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of finding form post long term injury, but with Payne looking the goods I think he’s on borrowed time too.