First 22 in 2023

[twhowler]

Yeah I was thinking the same after reading the above comments, but I guess what happens if someone's having a real stinker and the plan changes. Surely at half time you can make the call and plan something like this for the last 10 or so minutes of the 3rd, but maybe it's too rigid?

I probably should have clarified

I think we are terrible with the sub when trailing. When you’re winning or winning well wait until 3qt or even later in case of injury.

When trailing you should have 5-6 ideas in mind from pre game you can activate.

In the hawks game we were up at half time but trailing in every key stat - it was a false lead like the port game was. It was obvious 10 minutes in to the third quarter hawthorn were rolling us. A good coaching group at that point would say okay here were our 5-6 plans, which one? And told the sub to warm up.

 

[briztoon]

I probably should have clarified

I think we are terrible with the sub when trailing. When you’re winning or winning well wait until 3qt or even later in case of injury.

When trailing you should have 5-6 ideas in mind from pre game you can activate.

In the hawks game we were up at half time but trailing in every key stat - it was a false lead like the port game was. It was obvious 10 minutes in to the third quarter hawthorn were rolling us. A good coaching group at that point would say okay here were our 5-6 plans, which one? And told the sub to warm up.

Isn’t there only 1 sub?

So you are limited by who you choose as a sub.

 

[KissKiss]

Isn’t there only 1 sub?

So you are limited by who you choose as a sub.

Which comes back to us picking poor choices as sub in my opinion. Madden, Coleman, Fort are all strange choices that limit your options.

 

[briztoon]

Which comes back to us picking poor choices as sub in my opinion. Madden, Coleman, Fort are all strange choices that limit your options.

My guess is often our subs are selected on the basis of who might be carrying an injury or might need subbing out.

 

[KissKiss]

My guess is often our subs are selected on the basis of who might be carrying an injury or might need subbing out.

Probably true but when we have had such a small injury list why are we risking that? Why not rest a player and try someone else for a week?

 

[briztoon]

Probably true but when we have had such a small injury list why are we risking that? Why not rest a player and try someone else for a week?

I have no idea. I’ve been one of the more vocal posters for resting and rotating the best 22, for load management, etc.

 

[a mayes ing]

W

Probably true but when we have had such a small injury list why are we risking that? Why not rest a player and try someone else for a week?

We are probably the worst in the business re the sub and when to use it. Plenty of times we use it with a few minutes in the game or at 3 QT. Should be used before the the 3QT when everyone is tiring - and why wait so long to use it last night when we could have clearly used it earlier.

 

[On the quiet]

Probably true but when we have had such a small injury list why are we risking that? Why not rest a player and try someone else for a week?

Professional contact sport, so I am confident there are some players that are that valuable to the team that they will be declared fit even though they are carrying an injury. Joe, Dizzy and Harris are just a few who over the last couple of years very likely played injured.

On Friday night, I think we may have erred in not subbing out Payne earlier, and putting Cam back for the final Q.

 

[KissKiss]

Professional contact sport, so I am confident there are some players that are that valuable to the team that they will be declared fit even though they are carrying an injury. Joe, Dizzy and Harris are just a few who over the last couple of years very likely played injured.

On Friday night, I think we may have erred in not subbing out Payne earlier, and putting Cam back for the final Q.

100% we know this is true. And for some teams there is no choice but to select players who are at least a little sore. But when you have a tiny injury list, and guys in the twos who are screaming out for game/development time, then its crazy not to rotate your list more.

Generally I've been saying for a few years that the AFL is very immature as a sport on how to use an entire list. And the current Lions are one of the worst in that regard. There is almost zero reason to try and play your best 22 every game. It hurts you in the medium and long term and not sure there are many short term benefits either

 

[MSB ROYS]

100% we know this is true. And for some teams there is no choice but to select players who are at least a little sore. But when you have a tiny injury list, and guys in the twos who are screaming out for game/development time, then its crazy not to rotate your list more.

Generally I've been saying for a few years that the AFL is very immature as a sport on how to use an entire list. And the current Lions are one of the worst in that regard. There is almost zero reason to try and play your best 22 every game. It hurts you in the medium and long term and not sure there are many short term benefits either

Agree 100%.
Another thing to consider is that rarely some players will be much better at the AFL level than the VFL level. If they never play in the AFL, you will never know.

 

[martinson]

100% we know this is true. And for some teams there is no choice but to select players who are at least a little sore. But when you have a tiny injury list, and guys in the twos who are screaming out for game/development time, then its crazy not to rotate your list more.

Generally I've been saying for a few years that the AFL is very immature as a sport on how to use an entire list. And the current Lions are one of the worst in that regard. There is almost zero reason to try and play your best 22 every game. It hurts you in the medium and long term and not sure there are many short term benefits either

Many of the coaches and the psyche that surrounds footy clubs is still rooted in old school truisms.

You play your best team every week , you're loyal to the chosen squad ,they repay you in blood , no one ever got anywhere by messing with your system.

It's interesting how AFL hasn't progressed in line with other sports around the world with regard to athlete management.

There's still a stigma to getting replaced in the team and the BS Fages and the club put out re Gunners and Rich shows that inside the 4 walls they really do feel it when the time's up or when they need a rest.

 

[p4p1]

Many of the coaches and the psyche that surrounds footy clubs is still rooted in old school truisms.

You play your best team every week , you're loyal to the chosen squad ,they repay you in blood , no one ever got anywhere by messing with your system.

It's interesting how AFL hasn't progressed in line with other sports around the world with regard to athlete management.

There's still a stigma to getting replaced in the team and the BS Fages and the club put out re Gunners and Rich shows that inside the 4 walls they really do feel it when the time's up or when they need a rest.

I think part of the problem for the AFL is that teams don't play each other twice. The 23 games for an 18 team competition probably requires teams needing to play their best 22 every week. If every team played each other twice could afford to risk dropping a few more games against some lower level teams or not putting on monstrous score lines. IE. We are playing the eagles in 2 weeks. We will rest some of the older guys in our team or the guys who are pulling up a bit sore so we decide to rest Daniher, Oscar, Andrews, Charlie, Zorko etc. Lets be honest, we could field our reserves and still beat the Eagles. But not playing everyone twice which probably is a cause of percentage so often being a deciding factor for finals, the risk of not smashing a bottom team to bits when some other teams are getting two bites of the cherry makes it untenable.
My dream scenario is every team playing each other twice and a full reserves comp who play each other once and rotate fixtures each season. But me thinks a 38 game H&A season just wouldn't work for everyone outside of us fans. It will never happen, I am under no delusion of that but it is good to dream sometimes.

 

[p4p1]

What I find interesting is that Fletcher came in and I think most people would agree, given his effort and output in his first two games he is most likely to be in nearly everyone's 22 as the first wing rotation. Fletcher was lucky enough that his (I am assuming this) preferred position was one in which is probably our weakest. On the current trajectory I would expect Fletcher to do what Payne has done and cement his spot in the first 18 towards the end of the season and into the next. I was calling for Payne to be playing ahead of Gardiner who was clearly not the player he once was. Payne could have potentially reached the level he is at now earlier in his career. If Dev is given more opportunity does he become a lock in our first 18-22? When given the chance, I think his defensive game and hunger speaks for itself in a team that sometimes lacks it. Does playing Dev in that role give Dunks more opportunity to hunt the ball? I don't know but it's definitely a question.

But what I wonder is, are we missing some chances like Fletch (who I admit has more to prove) and Payne because we don't like to rotate the team? As said above me, there is some players who will play better at the elite level than in the ressies, there is also players who's output won't change between ressies and AFL. IE same disposals etc in both leagues. We have probably lost a couple of players that could maybe add more than just depth over the years. That doesn't mean the calls we made at the time were wrong, I just would hate to let the next Ashcroft, Clugg or Payne go because we can't get them game time to evaluate them properly.

 

[vic_LION]

I think part of the problem for the AFL is that teams don't play each other twice. The 23 games for an 18 team competition probably requires teams needing to play their best 22 every week. If every team played each other twice could afford to risk dropping a few more games against some lower level teams or not putting on monstrous score lines. IE. We are playing the eagles in 2 weeks. We will rest some of the older guys in our team or the guys who are pulling up a bit sore so we decide to rest Daniher, Oscar, Andrews, Charlie, Zorko etc. Lets be honest, we could field our reserves and still beat the Eagles. But not playing everyone twice which probably is a cause of percentage so often being a deciding factor for finals, the risk of not smashing a bottom team to bits when some other teams are getting two bites of the cherry makes it untenable.
My dream scenario is every team playing each other twice and a full reserves comp who play each other once and rotate fixtures each season. But me thinks a 38 game H&A season just wouldn't work for everyone outside of us fans. It will never happen, I am under no delusion of that but it is good to dream sometimes.

I think if they add in a few extra teams in the decades to come, a two division model would work real well. Go back to 12 teams playing 22 games, one at home and one away each season. Top two teams at div 2 go up and bottom two go down. Would at least give the struggling clubs a bit of breathing space for rebuilds

 

[briztoon]

What I find interesting is that Fletcher came in and I think most people would agree, given his effort and output in his first two games he is most likely to be in nearly everyone's 22 as the first wing rotation. Fletcher was lucky enough that his (I am assuming this) preferred position was one in which is probably our weakest. On the current trajectory I would expect Fletcher to do what Payne has done and cement his spot in the first 18 towards the end of the season and into the next. I was calling for Payne to be playing ahead of Gardiner who was clearly not the player he once was. Payne could have potentially reached the level he is at now earlier in his career. If Dev is given more opportunity does he become a lock in our first 18-22? When given the chance, I think his defensive game and hunger speaks for itself in a team that sometimes lacks it. Does playing Dev in that role give Dunks more opportunity to hunt the ball? I don't know but it's definitely a question.

But what I wonder is, are we missing some chances like Fletch (who I admit has more to prove) and Payne because we don't like to rotate the team? As said above me, there is some players who will play better at the elite level than in the ressies, there is also players who's output won't change between ressies and AFL. IE same disposals etc in both leagues. We have probably lost a couple of players that could maybe add more than just depth over the years. That doesn't mean the calls we made at the time were wrong, I just would hate to let the next Ashcroft, Clugg or Payne go because we can't get them game time to evaluate them properly.

Berry & McCluggage would be my starting wings, with Fletcher the bench wing rotation.

It’s a double edged sword. Inexperienced players make more mistakes, but you need to play them at the highest level for them to gain the appropriate level of experience.

I’ve been one of Dev’s biggest supporters on here, but what let’s him down, is his kicking, particularly when he plays inside midfield, where he tends to throw the ball on his boot exactly the same as Matho.

 

[Viceregal]

I think if they add in a few extra teams in the decades to come, a two division model would work real well. Go back to 12 teams playing 22 games, one at home and one away each season. Top two teams at div 2 go up and bottom two go down. Would at least give the struggling clubs a bit of breathing space for rebuilds

Divisions wouldn't work in our environment - the similar concept option that would work would be some kind of rotating conference system with the top teams in each merged for the final series.

Has been done to death on many a thread on the main board.

 

[martinson]

Berry & McCluggage would be my starting wings, with Fletcher the bench wing rotation.

It’s a double edged sword. Inexperienced players make more mistakes, but you need to play them at the highest level for them to gain the appropriate level of experience.

I’ve been one of Dev’s biggest supporters on here, but what let’s him down, is his kicking, particularly when he plays inside midfield, where he tends to throw the ball on his boot exactly the same as Matho.

I noticed that particularly with Dev the last 2 weeks. He's very quick with his hands and has good awareness but it takes him too long to get his boot to the ball when he wants to kick and then when he does it lacks penetration.

He seems a smart hard at it player with talent and good skills inside the contest but just doesn't have the polish ,run or piercing kicking skills to really hurt the opposition.

If we were able to give him a season or two as an inside mid he'd be a capable fourth or fifth stringer and he's not far off being a regular senior player but where we are at the moment we're probably looking for better.

 

[buttermuffs]

Divisions wouldn't work in our environment - the similar concept option that would work would be some kind of rotating conference system with the top teams in each merged for the final series.

Has been done to death on many a thread on the main board.

Funnily enough two 12 team divisions makes 24 teams at which you could just have a 23 game season playing every team once anyway. Completely eliminates double ups which makes the fixture a lot fairer than it is now. The current model is relatively well intentioned but has its very obvious flaws.


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[M Malice]

Funnily enough two 12 team divisions makes 24 teams at which you could just have a 23 game season playing every team once anyway. Completely eliminates double ups which makes the fixture a lot fairer than it is now. The current model is relatively well intentioned but has its very obvious flaws.


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You would have to play a 24 game season to accommodate for 2 clashes in the Showdown, The Derby, Qclash, The Bridge and the big Melbourne club rivalries.

 

[Tom14]

What I find interesting is that Fletcher came in and I think most people would agree, given his effort and output in his first two games he is most likely to be in nearly everyone's 22 as the first wing rotation. Fletcher was lucky enough that his (I am assuming this) preferred position was one in which is probably our weakest. On the current trajectory I would expect Fletcher to do what Payne has done and cement his spot in the first 18 towards the end of the season and into the next. I was calling for Payne to be playing ahead of Gardiner who was clearly not the player he once was. Payne could have potentially reached the level he is at now earlier in his career. If Dev is given more opportunity does he become a lock in our first 18-22? When given the chance, I think his defensive game and hunger speaks for itself in a team that sometimes lacks it. Does playing Dev in that role give Dunks more opportunity to hunt the ball? I don't know but it's definitely a question.

But what I wonder is, are we missing some chances like Fletch (who I admit has more to prove) and Payne because we don't like to rotate the team? As said above me, there is some players who will play better at the elite level than in the ressies, there is also players who's output won't change between ressies and AFL. IE same disposals etc in both leagues. We have probably lost a couple of players that could maybe add more than just depth over the years. That doesn't mean the calls we made at the time were wrong, I just would hate to let the next Ashcroft, Clugg or Payne go because we can't get them game time to evaluate them properly.

Fletcher was the 12th overall pick though, and given his delayed start to pre-season due to the back injury he probably couldn't really have played any earlier. Early draft picks will always get opportunities, whereas later picks or academy types usually take a while. Keays and Dev were early second round picks with some deficiencies in their game which limited opportunity.

There's good arguments for more rotation across the board and using the whole squad, but I'm not too concerned on missing out on stars because they can't get game time.

Keays was let go but in my view wouldn't have had a consistent spot in the team until this year as Linc was always going to be ahead of him.

 

[buttermuffs]

You would have to play a 24 game season to accommodate for 2 clashes in the Showdown, The Derby, Qclash, The Bridge and the big Melbourne club rivalries.

Nah I think just one a season would be fine and I think doing that makes it somewhat worse than it is now. Like Freo would have a massive advantage for a couple years always having an extra game against WC to get an easy win and boost percentage. That would be a chance no other team gets compared to five teams now.

Same applies for us and GC to an extent. They are certainly much better now but if you were choosing a team to play twice in a season in the last decade I would think GC and Carlton are the only two you’d pick.


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[p4p1]

Berry & McCluggage would be my starting wings, with Fletcher the bench wing rotation.

It’s a double edged sword. Inexperienced players make more mistakes, but you need to play them at the highest level for them to gain the appropriate level of experience.

I’ve been one of Dev’s biggest supporters on here, but what let’s him down, is his kicking, particularly when he plays inside midfield, where he tends to throw the ball on his boot exactly the same as Matho.

I haven't watched any reserves games but is that something that could be fixed by more games and getting used to the level/speed of AFL or is it consistent through his VFL form as well?