First 23 in 2024

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martinson said:
Doedee will be an automatic in when he's fit . He does everything Froggy or Gardiner can do with the addition of hurting the opposition the other way.

Payne was into AA calculations when he was fit ,but once he cops an injury it really affects his mindset and he loses his confidence and aggression . He really does have it all to be a top class player ,I'm sure we're working on the mental side of his game.

We're really jacked for hybrid type defenders now. I'm not overkeen on moving anyone with size around. Payne and Andrews are the 2 pillars and you build the rest around that.
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Feel like whatever niggle Payne got really affected his mobility which at this stage is his biggest advantage. He hasn't had the playing experience yet to quite have the best positioning or smarts, so when his play speed/agility is affected he's going to be worse off. That stuff will come with more experience of course.
 
On the quiet said:
Agree. That is why I see possibly Lester (who has played forward) and or Gardiner (defensive forward) having a run up forward during some match sims/trials, as Fages does like the 3 tall forward option. Third tall spot is up for grabs. I have stated many times I think Cam is dangerous in the role as the third tall, but seems the coaches think otherwise.

Also mentioned in early 2022, when I thought Payne was ready, about having a core back of 8 or so and depending on opposition matchups there could be some selection rotations, but IMO players (whilst they state they will do what is right for the team, don't like it), and suspect coaches are not too keen.

When Doedee is fit for the second half of the season he is a lock, so my back 7;
Andrews, Payne, Doedee, Wilmot, Starc, Kiddy, Mckenna
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I don't mind Froggy when he goes forward , he's a smart player who often bobs up with a goal. With the extra confidence he gained in 2023 he's the sort of player very handy to have on your list.

I don't really know what the plan is with Cam but despite his talent please never throw him into the back half as the spare again. In fact nearly every time we did it with anybody last year it seemed to backfire.

Cam could play the third tall role ,I just wonder if he's more use in bursts in a Dusty type role. If he's as jacked as everyone says maybe more midfield minutes . This is the year we need him to step up as a gun weapon. He's done enough hard yards by now including a significant injury setback which looking on the positive side he seemed to come back from a bit stronger and fitter.
 
Tom14 said:
Feel like whatever niggle Payne got really affected his mobility which at this stage is his biggest advantage. He hasn't had the playing experience yet to quite have the best positioning or smarts, so when his play speed/agility is affected he's going to be worse off. That stuff will come with more experience of course.
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Yes . Good point . To me he seemed to drop his bundle and looked disappointed in himself when his mobility dropped off.

Some players need to learn to cope with that. Some you can't stop them throwing themselves in on one leg. The way the season is framed now everyone is going to be carrying something at some point.
 

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Will be interesting to watch who they play/trial (midfield) in the match sims/intraclub games and preseason games.

I think one spot being Robertson is up for grabs. He would be aware of this but good on him for signing an extension.

In season 2023 we had Neale, Dunkley & Ashcroft (until his round 19 injury) as our three main CBA midfield guys.

McCluggage increased his numbers in the 2nd half of the year after Wills injury. He still played mainly midfield and forward.
Zorko's numbers could stay similar or drop off some more in 2024. He should play mostly forward again.
Robertson's numbers are intriguing.
The last 3 seasons he is attending less CBA even though his game numbers were similar in 2023 to 2021.
He is most likely moving into the midfield at stages during the game. Coming from the bench or when forward.

Going on past numbers we can expect McCluggage to move into that 3rd CBA spot.
Bailey to increase his numbers going into his 7th season.
Should Rayner play that 3rd tall it will only be a few appearances from him.
If he is not the 3rd tall his CBA's will increase.

Player2023 Total CBA 20222021
Ashcroft221 (19 games)N/AN/A
McCluggage297 (25)388 (24)158 (24)
Bailey159 (24)150 (24)183 (24)
Zorko119 (20)134 (22)320 (23)
Rayner (defense early then 3rd tall late)56 (26)176 (24)ACL Injury
Robertson41 (16)77 (8)156 (16)
 
martinson said:
Doedee will be an automatic in when he's fit . He does everything Froggy or Gardiner can do with the addition of hurting the opposition the other way.

Payne was into AA calculations when he was fit ,but once he cops an injury it really affects his mindset and he loses his confidence and aggression . He really does have it all to be a top class player ,I'm sure we're working on the mental side of his game.

We're really jacked for hybrid type defenders now. I'm not overkeen on moving anyone with size around. Payne and Andrews are the 2 pillars and you build the rest around that.
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I don't think it's a mindset issue that hinders Paynes game when he gets an injury. Surely it's the injury itself that restricts his ability to perform. A foot, ankle, calf injury is going to affect his speed, his jumping. It's going to affect decision making and positioning. The mind as willing as it may be, still needs the body to to perform. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 
Berrygood said:
I don't think it's a mindset issue that hinders Paynes game when he gets an injury. Surely it's the injury itself that restricts his ability to perform. A foot, ankle, calf injury is going to affect his speed, his jumping. It's going to affect decision making and positioning. The mind as willing as it may be, still needs the body to to perform. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Yeah that's a fair perspective. It's just my impression that he doesn't really want to be out there when he's carrying something , whereas some others are able to cope better and indeed try to cover up whatever their issues are.

We kept playing him week after week when his performances had dropped right away and I can't think we would keep playing him if it's something the conditioning staff didn't think he should be able to perform at a reasonable level with.

Anyway when fit his performances were getting to the exceptional level so let's hope he can cement that type of form this year. He's had a bit of a rough trot with injury the last couple of years , we could've done with him at his best in the GF.
 
martinson said:
I don't mind Froggy when he goes forward , he's a smart player who often bobs up with a goal. With the extra confidence he gained in 2023 he's the sort of player very handy to have on your list.

I don't really know what the plan is with Cam but despite his talent please never throw him into the back half as the spare again. In fact nearly every time we did it with anybody last year it seemed to backfire.

Cam could play the third tall role ,I just wonder if he's more use in bursts in a Dusty type role. If he's as jacked as everyone says maybe more midfield minutes . This is the year we need him to step up as a gun weapon. He's done enough hard yards by now including a significant injury setback which looking on the positive side he seemed to come back from a bit stronger and fitter.
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One of the highlights of Lester’s great form last year was his rebounding out of defence. He really took the game on and starred in some standout passages.
 
It looked like Payne had significant injury pain in both legs which is a real pain when trying to play like Payne can. I think effectively calling him a bit mentally soft which is effectively what’s happening is not really fair.
 
Sproj said:
It looked like Payne had significant injury pain in both legs which is a real pain when trying to play like Payne can. I think effectively calling him a bit mentally soft which is effectively what’s happening is not really fair.
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We do develop mental toughness and the ability to push through pain as we grow and mature as people. It isn't linear. Calling Payne soft is not really respectful of him, but don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out that being able to play through pain and discomfort is an area of improvement for him. If it weren't, he'd have played in the prelim and GF.
 
Nunez said:
We do develop mental toughness and the ability to push through pain as we grow and mature as people. It isn't linear. Calling Payne soft is not really respectful of him, but don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out that being able to play through pain and discomfort is an area of improvement for him. If it weren't, he'd have played in the prelim and GF.
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I could be wrong but didn’t he have injuries in both feet / legs and played through that pain for a couple of months? He also tried really hard to get right for the GF but the coach didn’t pick him. This hardly screams a bit soft is all I’m saying.
 
Sproj said:
I could be wrong but didn’t he have injuries in both feet / legs and played through that pain for a couple of months? He also tried really hard to get right for the GF but the coach didn’t pick him. This hardly screams a bit soft is all I’m saying.
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“Brisbane keep saying Jack Payne is a chance,” he said on Fox Footy’s On the Couch. “Here’s the issue: He battled an ankle issue with the other foot, has done so since Round 16. He’s been in OK form, but only OK since (that ankle issue). He’s taken 14 intercept marks, five contested marks in 10 weeks. He’s going to need surgery on that ankle."
Ralph reporting leading up to the GF.

think 'mightly lion's posted an image of him in a moon boot in the off season and another poster mentioned at training last week, Payne only doing light duties. So it is likely had off season surgery, but could not find anything to confirm. Reckon he was hampered in a few games and then what ever he did in the semi against Port, finished him off. According to a training post, he appears to be on restricted training and with around 6 weeks until round 1, I don't think he will be playing.

looking forward to this year, despite the tough draw and missing Will, we are a better side than last year. Dev, Fletcher, Wilmot, Payne all less than 50 games, all of them will improve. Kiddy gets better, pictures of Cam have him primed for a big year and reports have Gardiner looking fit.
 
Nunez said:
We do develop mental toughness and the ability to push through pain as we grow and mature as people. It isn't linear. Calling Payne soft is not really respectful of him, but don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out that being able to play through pain and discomfort is an area of improvement for him. If it weren't, he'd have played in the prelim and GF.
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That was more the point I was making. Confidence in his game is something the club has clearly identified and been trying to instill for the last couple of years.

Experience and maturity is a strong factor in what is loosely termed 'mental toughness' . No one is saying Jack is soft ,far from it. But his confidence drops right away when he's not 100% and it's something he'll learn to cope with as he matures.

We wouldn't have picked him for weeks on end if we didn't think he was able to perform at the level required.
 
There's been a bit of feedback that the staff didn't know how Lachie got himself up to play on occasions the last couple of years. Daniher played half a season barely able to lift one arm above his head , a big hindrance for someone like him , and performed extremely well on occasions. So the reputation he carried around in his final years at Essendon as being a bit soft is just BS

You have to respect guys like Murray ,Tuck and Bartlett back in the day and latterly Mundy ,Boak Burgoyne and the like , guys who played hundreds of games barely putting their hand up as injured. That's one thing that elevates the real champs , players who continue to perform exceptionally well whatever their circumstances.
 

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I actually have no idea how high level athletes manage to play through some of the injuries they get. Extremely tough people and built differently.
 
BRAB said:
I actually have no idea how high level athletes manage to play through some of the injuries they get. Extremely tough people and built differently.
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Elite people in any field just have a passion and a mindset that lifts them above the others don't they.

I remember as a young man watching them strap Kevin Murray up before a game when he was into his thirties. There was hardly a part of him not attended to, then he put a brace on his back. And went out and played like there was no tomorrow.

To see tennis players go for 4 or 5 hours in the heat at full pelt and then keep backing up every second day is the level of fitness and commitment you require to succeed at the top level. Sports people in the know tell me tennis players are the fittest athletes overall in any sport . Whether that's true or not I can see why. I'm staggered at the pace marathoners go at . And to do all the training required and then compete at that pace and cope with all the injuries and niggles is some sort of feat that requires extreme mental obsession with the sport.

I completely understand how difficult it is for many elite athletes to construct a meaningful life after sport , to get to that level in any sport these days it's sometimes a massive letdown when it's taken away. The adulation and criticism that comes with SM now another tier to deal with . I know the financial rewards are now extreme but you have to pay the price to get there and stay there.
 
Yo
BRAB said:
I actually have no idea how high level athletes manage to play through some of the injuries they get. Extremely tough people and built differently.
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Your last comment is spot on. For people with a mindset thats extremely competitive like AFL footballers they will always find a way to satisfy theirselves in life providing they don't get into a depressive state and find a different method to get that same feeling.
The Lions are one of a few clubs that specifically help players at the end of their careers to do just that....such a good club.
 
Round 1(Grand Final side except for Jack Payne), in brackets players putting pressure on the incumbents >

Brandon Starcevich, Jack Payne, Darcy Gardiner(Ryan Lester).
Keidean Coleman, Harris Andrews, Connor McKenna.

Oscar McInerney, Lachie Neale, Josh Dunkley.
Hugh McCluggage, Jaspa Fletcher, Jarrod Berry(Harry Sharp).

Charlie Cameron, Eric Hipwood, Lincoln McCarthy.
Cam Rayner, Joe Daniher, Zac Bailey.

Dev Robertson(James Tunstill, Noah Answerth, Kai Lohmann), Darcy Wilmot, Callum Ah Chee(Noah Answerth, James Tunstill, Kai Lohmann), Dayne Zorko.
_______________________
Besides the bracketed I also think the likes of Shadeau Brain, Bruce Reville and Jaxon Prior can push for a spot somewhere early in the season.

When fit Tom Doedee in for Gardiner/Lester, and Will Ashcroft in for any of Dev Robertson, Callum Ah Chee, Jarrod Berry. Jaspa Fletcher could be the other one under pressure, hopefully no 2nd year blues for him.
 
Pride of lions said:
If James Madden is over his injury issues he could possibly be a chance to get a go on the wing this year.
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I reckon Maddens best position is as a lockdown backman similar to Starcevich . He has elite speed and does not let his opposition player to get away. His skills and decision making need improvement but over the past couple of years he has been slowly improving in these areas. If he gets into the side he can provide some X factor in the backline similar to Lohman in the forward line.
 
FF: Cameron Daniher Rayner
HF: McCarthy Hipwood Bailey
C: Fletcher Dunkley Berry
HB: Coleman Andrews Wilmott
B: Starcevich Payne Lester
Foll: McInerney McCluggage Neale
Bench: Lohmann, McKenna/Ah Chee, Gardiner, Zorko
Sub: Ah Chee/Tunstill
 
Nathan Barley said:
FF: Cameron Daniher Rayner
HF: McCarthy Hipwood Bailey
C: Fletcher Dunkley Berry
HB: Coleman Andrews Wilmott
B: Starcevich Payne Lester
Foll: McInerney McCluggage Neale
Bench: Lohmann, McKenna/Ah Chee, Gardiner, Zorko
Sub: Ah Chee/Tunstill
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Stunned if he's not in the team next week. For those playing at home (Supercoach) might well be be sub candidate (more so sub off than sub on), but he did look good out there last night. Can he keep it up?
 
Kai Lohmann probably played his way into the side last night, assuming McKenna doesn't get up for the game so my round O team >

Brandon Starcevich, Jack Payne, Ryan Lester.
Keidean Coleman, Harris Andrews, Darcy Wilmot.

Oscar McInerney, Lachie Neale, Josh Dunkley.
Hugh McCluggage, Jaspa Fletcher, Cam Rayner.

Charlie Cameron, Eric Hipwood, Lincoln McCarthy.
Darcy Gardiner, Joe Daniher, Zac Bailey.

Kai Lohmann, Callum Ah Chee, Dayne Zorko, Jarrod Berry... James Tunstill(sub).
 
Kai looked a lot better around the ground than when he has to play in a set position but he doesn't have the defensive capacities or all round versatility of Ah Chee. And in particular the team first mindset. But it may come with a few games under the belt.

Besides which Cal is my favourite player so he has to go in.

Tunstill seemed to run out of gas in the conditions last night but again he has a team first attitude and is improving. It might take him another year to be up to the tempo in a Senior M/f position but he's going to get there I believe.

Rayner is built like a sherman tank with legs and a backside like a sturdy oak and if it were possible to get his m/f minutes up to 50% you're looking at adding something extra to the stoppages that would really help Neale and Dunkley and benefit the team greatly.
 
martinson said:
Kai looked a lot better around the ground than when he has to play in a set position but he doesn't have the defensive capacities or all round versatility of Ah Chee. And in particular the team first mindset. But it may come with a few games under the belt.

Besides which Cal is my favourite player so he has to go in.

Tunstill seemed to run out of gas in the conditions last night but again he has a team first attitude and is improving. It might take him another year to be up to the tempo in a Senior M/f position but he's going to get there I believe.

Rayner is built like a sherman tank with legs and a backside like a sturdy oak and if it were possible to get his m/f minutes up to 50% you're looking at adding something extra to the stoppages that would really help Neale and Dunkley and benefit the team greatly.
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Yeah Tunstill disappointed me last night. Seemed to struggle with the speed of the game which is a worry because I didn't think it was that quick. Lohmann ahead of him for mine as well.

My one caveat on Lohmann is he had 7 touches in the first quarter, 4 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd and only 2 in the last. 4 of his 6 tackles came in the first quarter also. So he did fade out of the game in that sense.
 

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