Yeah, nah. Maybe OK?
Pitto's biggest drawback is his athleticism. He can't kill contests. He doesn't really get deep back or forward.
I mean 4 years. It's royal comission worthy.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK
- Thread starter Justnetime
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Pitto's biggest drawback is his athleticism. He can't kill contests. He doesn't really get deep back or forward.
I mean 4 years. It's royal comission worthy.
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- #452
Jack is probably everyone's understudy, behind Curnow/McKay, Martin and TDK/Pitt.
Hope he stays but if everyone is fit and firing I'd only maybe start him above Pitt. Wouldn't blame him if he leaves for a more certain starting spot.
Hope he stays but if everyone is fit and firing I'd only maybe start him above Pitt. Wouldn't blame him if he leaves for a more certain starting spot.
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- #453
I don't mind the length of time with TDK for two more, O'Keefe is minimum two years off senior football.
Marc is there as a mature pro to play first, second or VFL ruck.
His recent injuries are more concerning to me.
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Points well made JustOneTime and The Old Dark Navy's.
Goals are probably not a fair measure for JSOS given how poorly we played in his early years, and the fact that he plays alongside two Coleman Medallists so he barely gets kicked to.
I'm interested to get thoughts on what JSOS role would even be in 2024 if we had a fit list. Club seems super commited to the TDK/Pitto combo which I'm not sold on, but I think that combo pushes JSOS out given TDK likely rests forward.
Personally I want to see McKay as a backup so we don't have to play two tap ruckman. Does not seem to be in the clubs plans at all.
Goals are probably not a fair measure for JSOS given how poorly we played in his early years, and the fact that he plays alongside two Coleman Medallists so he barely gets kicked to.
I'm interested to get thoughts on what JSOS role would even be in 2024 if we had a fit list. Club seems super commited to the TDK/Pitto combo which I'm not sold on, but I think that combo pushes JSOS out given TDK likely rests forward.
Personally I want to see McKay as a backup so we don't have to play two tap ruckman. Does not seem to be in the clubs plans at all.
JustOneTime
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I like the Mckay idea as well. And i agree that the club seems to favour the TDK/Pitto combo leaving JSoS in the lurch to some degree.
When I look back to those first games in our 7 game winning streak JSoS was one putting everything on the line and playing his absolute best to help our group turn the ship around. There are players that profit from the team playing well and there are players that can help drive the team in challengin times. I think JSoS is one of these players who helps drive 'on effort'. I just dont want to lose that. Other players dont do that. In that first half when Pitto was pretty much horrific, the only thing I'd like him to do is show anger and bulldoze a path...something that TDK did better. Find a way to impact. I think JSoS does this and others don't.
I get that the coach may prefer Pitto in the centre and develop TDK as a potential goal kicker forward in pref to JSoS. I'm just on the other side of that fence as a simple supporter with no power. And nothing wrong with having different views as that was the case with Plowman. I thought he was woeful and wanted him replapced with ANY of Kemp, McGovern or Marchbank. Eventually Voss saw the light lol.
He couldn't run or bend over the other night.
TDK and JSos for me.
BlueGum
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Eventually Kemp, McGovern and Marchbank became available and showed enough form.
I want SOS to stay and keep fighting for a spot. His efforts and heart will keep the standards up.
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- #459
This was not true the first time you said it a few weeks ago. It is still not true now. Saying it over and over and over again doesn't make it any more accurate.
Pittonet and TDK have now played 21 senior games together, and have lifted the success rate over 50%.
That would indicate...it does work, wouldn't it?
Bizarre to judge a ruck on disposal numbers alone. Completely disingenuous too.
Sooooo....
I'd start him above just about everyone.
It's not a coincidence that everyone has started playing like Jack and we are winning.
No. Wholly situational and dependant on a great many factors.
That's like saying we win more often when Hansen sits to the left of Voss.
JustOneTime
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Not sure that does. You have to work out a lot more detail than just that. Or I could say two north ruckman could never ever work together because of their current win/loss ratio.
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Do you have the stats on that?
It certainly indicates that "it doesn't work" is a massive stretch and not one based on reality.
JustOneTime
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The TDK/Pitto combo is such a tough one and I dont really have enough of a view on it personally.
If I think of a 'best 23' on gameday plus Pitto and TDK being in that 23 for ruck and relief ruck duties, then i think they are our two worst players in the squad given the rest of our talent.
If I think of it in terms of roles, then maybe you have to give ground on those two individual battles to win the overall gameday match battle. I'd potentially accept that as a decent argument.
I'd prefer in order for us to start trying Mckay. Then JSoS and then Pitto last and only for special matchups. If JSoS drops his intensity in the ruck, i'd drop him and use Pitto with TDK.
If I think of a 'best 23' on gameday plus Pitto and TDK being in that 23 for ruck and relief ruck duties, then i think they are our two worst players in the squad given the rest of our talent.
If I think of it in terms of roles, then maybe you have to give ground on those two individual battles to win the overall gameday match battle. I'd potentially accept that as a decent argument.
I'd prefer in order for us to start trying Mckay. Then JSoS and then Pitto last and only for special matchups. If JSoS drops his intensity in the ruck, i'd drop him and use Pitto with TDK.
What this says to me is Pitto is being asked to play underdone...people don't mention he came back from injury the week after JSOS' injury. I reckon we rushed him back.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's playing at well under 80% fitness. We've nursed him through games where he was only playing about 50% game time.
Voss praised the ruck combo in his presser and confirmed it is our preferred duo. Bad news for JSOS. Voss clearly thinks Pitto's bash and crash compliments TDK's athleticism. Gives us 2 different type of rucks and Pitto helps to tire out the opposing rucks which helps TDK do his thing.
JSOS is such a handy backup ruck or forward though and our history suggests we always have a tall injured.
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Now: Pitt/TDK
Long term: TDK/HOK
Long term: TDK/HOK
It's hard, generally it's a no to having two rucks if neither can play forward. Having an undersized ruck probably isn't as bad if they are really competitive and SOS is, he does win or get close in the hitouts. It's a hard one. Benefits in keeping strong in the ruck but also benefits having a second ruck who can play other positions as well.
I'm slightly leaning towards DeKoning and Silvagni at the moment. I think the second ruck needs to be able to impact in another position. DeKoning and Pittonet are only rucks at this stage.
Another way of looking at things is that Silvagni is probably a better second ruckman than premiership second ruck Shaun Grigg so this sort of thing can work.
When your midfield is more about pressure than win it or lose it, winning the hitouts is not as important so the way we are playing at the moment, we may be better off with Silvagni.
Thing about Silvagni is he impacts up forward, around the ground as a ruck and can drop back in defence or play as a defender and impact as well. Both rucks lack defensive abilities as we have seen from so many missed spoils and getting out marked too often when they go back. Very rarely impact up forward.
I'm slightly leaning towards DeKoning and Silvagni at the moment. I think the second ruck needs to be able to impact in another position. DeKoning and Pittonet are only rucks at this stage.
Another way of looking at things is that Silvagni is probably a better second ruckman than premiership second ruck Shaun Grigg so this sort of thing can work.
When your midfield is more about pressure than win it or lose it, winning the hitouts is not as important so the way we are playing at the moment, we may be better off with Silvagni.
Thing about Silvagni is he impacts up forward, around the ground as a ruck and can drop back in defence or play as a defender and impact as well. Both rucks lack defensive abilities as we have seen from so many missed spoils and getting out marked too often when they go back. Very rarely impact up forward.
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4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Clearly, Voss disagrees.
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Or this...
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There is far more to being a ruck than hit outs.. Its the impact you have around the ground, and disposals is a fair indicator, marks, goals, tackles are the other.
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I think TDK development since taking on the #1 role is a massive green shoot for our team and a catalyst for our turn around in form this year, he looks damaging at times and gives the opposition something to worry about... I am not sure an oppo ruck has ever been concerned about Pittonet.
JSOS is interesting, he clearly plays his best footy when he is playing that relief ruck role getting up around the ground and involved in the game.. When he has played as a solo forward, I am not sure why but he always struggles to get into the game. The team plays better when Jack is the 2nd ruck, and its not just about the hit outs, its the pressure and impact he has around the contest, basically giving us another midfielder at the stoppage. If you can look through his height, JSOS would be close to the best 2nd ruck in the comp, prob only behind Jackson.
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- #473
Never said otherwise, I'm not the one taking one stat and using it to judge a player's worth or performance.
Going back to your own ruck rankings, it's interesting you use disposal numbers as the primary metric, yet rank Darcy as the 3rd best ruck in the league in front of some who you don't even have in your top 25, yet they average more disposals.
An oversight, or are you simply making things up as you go?
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Easy answer. JSoS plays the 3rd forward role. He plays the decoy, creates space for H or Charlie and also applies pressure. Sometimes you need to do the team things.
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I also mentioned, marks, tackles, goals.
FWIW - Darcy avg 13th most disposals, 2nd most hitouts, 10th most marks and is around the top 10 in every stat listed on footwire.. the only other rucks listed in the top on all of them are English, Gawn & Witts.. and rightfully they are all better rucks than Darcy.. Probably the most accurate way of comparing a rucks overall impact is supercoach & Dreamteam points.. of course its not without its flaws but does enable all aspects of the game to be ranked. On This Darcy is ranked 5th in DT & 6th in SC, with English, Gawn, Witts, Marshall and surprisingly Briggs ranked higher, but i think most good judges would rank English, Gawn, Darcy, Witts and Marshall the top 5 rucks in the game and the order up for discussion.
This is getting tedious with you, you clearly rate Pittonet highly.. I dont.. Not sure anything we say on here is going to alter either of our opinion so lets move on.
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