Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[Stamos]

Genuine question to those in favour of a Pitto / TDK combo: if Melbourne can't make Gawn & Grundy work, both of whom are more accomplished rucks than ours, why do we think we can make Pitto & TDK work?

Is there something different about our list or game style that changes the equation compared to Melbourne?

Is it just that TDK is still quite poor for hit-outs to advantage so we need Pitto for that for now, but if & when TDK ups that aspect of his game then the need for Pitto will be reduced?

Something else?

Good question.
I would say that the Melbourne comparison is not quite analogous because Gawn (and Grundy for that matter) is such a good full time ruckman, and neither, but Grundy in particular, are great forwards.

For us, the reason to play both would be that maybe neither are currently quite up to being that dominant full game ruckman. Pitto can do the grunt work and soften up the opposition, which allows TDK to then have his real impact.

That said, at the moment I'd lean more to playing TDK with JSOS to back up (when he's fit again).

 

[My Hat]

I think TerryWallet is making the case.

I think it is more based on the fact that week to week, we can lose a game directly based on a poor performing TDK or Pitto as a sole ruck with JSoS backup.

Playing both negates that to a degree that if one is bad, the other goes ok keeping us competitive in the middle.

Basically give up an individual area but be competitive, and win the game overall with assets elsewhere.

Both are putrid so we need 2 to cover that area of the game.

Good question.
I would say that the Melbourne comparison is not quite analogous because Gawn (and Grundy for that matter) is such a good full time ruckman, and neither, but Grundy in particular, are great forwards.

For us, the reason to play both would be that maybe neither are currently quite up to being that dominant full game ruckman. Pitto can do the grunt work and soften up the opposition, which allows TDK to then have his real impact.

That said, at the moment I'd lean more to playing TDK with JSOS to back up (when he's fit again).

I can see the logic in this, although it's kind of ironic that the answer might boil down to it being more workable for us precisely because neither of our rucks are that good.

But I suppose that under this line of thinking, 'making it work' is the wrong way to phrase it, it's more about covering an area of relative weakness. And I guess the logical extension is that we'd be hoping TDK develops his game enough to remove that weakness and free us up to look at the second ruck position differently. In which case it then becomes a question over time of when is TDK good enough for us to do that.

 

[JustOneTime]

This topic is still rearing its ugly head a couple of seasons on.

TDK and JSoS combo for mine. Pitto needing to kill it as a ruck if he wants to push out TDK who can play fwd while Pitto cant.

More run and more fwd pressure with JSoS.

Mckay to help outside 50.

 

[TerryWallet]

Pitto and TDK for mine.

While we've got a slow midfield we have to give them at least an even chance at getting the ball first. If we have to chase more often than not, we're pretty much forked. With 2 proper rucks giving our mids an even chance at getting it, they will win it the majority of time. Which gives us the chance to set up our territory game.

Don't even mess with Harry. He is a weapon KPF. Next year for him is about returning his confidence to be that imo.

SOS gets beat in the Ruck much more often than not. He's just nowhere near being a ruckman.

Our gameplan and team composition needs 2 genuine rucks imo. And so far Vossy's too. He's a stubborn bugger.......and knows a thing or two about midfields.

 

[JustOneTime]

Pitto and TDK for mine.

While we've got a slow midfield we have to give them at least an even chance at getting the ball first. If we have to chase more often than not, we're pretty much forked. With 2 proper rucks giving our mids an even chance at getting it, they will win it the majority of time. Which gives us the chance to set up our territory game.

Don't even mess with Harry. He is a weapon KPF. Next year for him is about returning his confidence to be that imo.

SOS gets beat in the Ruck much more often than not. He's just nowhere near being a ruckman.

Our gameplan and team composition needs 2 genuine rucks imo. And so far Vossy's too. He's a stubborn bugger.......and knows a thing or two about midfields.

Good points Terry. I get it. If Pitto plays to his best I'm on board with it. If Pitto plays badly then I def prefer JSoS / TDK.

Can be horses for courses a little bit.

PS I'm hoping for another 5-10% improvement from TDK which also swings it for me.

 

[TerryWallet]

Good points Terry. I get it. If Pitto plays to his best I'm on board with it. If Pitto plays badly then I def prefer JSoS / TDK.

Can be horses for courses a little bit.

PS I'm hoping for another 5-10% improvement from TDK which also swings it for me.

Pitto's been carrying a banged up knee since that PCL and necessitated early return, for 18 months i reckon. I trust he'll be fitter and sharper(for him) next year. He's a good ruck imo, and coming into his prime years. He'll never be a star. He's pretty much Soldo, just there to give his mids a crack. Even going way back to our own Wow Jones, same sorta deal.

Like you, i also expect TDK to improve next year. He'll be a weapon kept reasonably fresh imo. I see them as a perfect pair and along with our mids, a nightmare group for most midfields.

 

[Coona Blues]

Pitto's been carrying a banged up knee since that PCL and necessitated early return, for 18 months i reckon. I trust he'll be fitter and sharper(for him) next year. He's a good ruck imo, and coming into his prime years. He'll never be a star. He's pretty much Soldo, just there to give his mids a crack. Even going way back to our own Wow Jones, same sorta deal.

Like you, i also expect TDK to improve next year. He'll be a weapon kept reasonably fresh imo. I see them as a perfect pair and along with our mids, a nightmare group for most midfields.

This will remain “fluid” through 2024.

There are legitimate arguments for the two ruck model, particularly if Pitto can shake off the deficits from his knee. Both of the big boys have experienced some injuries over the past couple of seasons. Pitto has been the go to. The bloke who played sore if it was necessary, while TDK has been handled like the young immature colt he is/was.

A more mobile model with one of the boys and JSOS is often more beneficial, so will get multiple runs during the year. It is the perfect time for some rotational selections. Keep the big boys fresh for the back end of the season. Pitto is very worthy and a great team man. It will be a sad day when he hands over the mantle of the club’s no. 1 ruck. We are a year from that day, or at least 3/4 of a season. There is some chance that in the back end of the season we will settle on TDK as the man, with back up from Jack, or even a mixture of players.

2026 will see a fully developed De Koning. His trajectory suggests to me, he will be a year short of carrying the no. 1 ruck role week in week out in the coming season. The two ruck model may be workable beyond that, but there is a chance the personnel begins to change.

Lemmey has hope as a forward ruck following some more grounding and physical development. It is however, Hudson O’Keeffe who excites me as a developing ruck who is a dead eye around the big sticks. While not oozing pure forward craft, he is dangerous in the front half and singularly combative when on the ball. Commonsense says he enters the mix some where during the 2025 season, if not getting a small taste earlier. Pitto will be 29/30 by the time we are ready for this and hopefully a premiership is on his CV. He would either join the ruck merry go round or hopefully hang around as the elder statesman mentoring the youngsters and providing superb back up.

Mirkov remains the dark horse. His tap work is next level, so could potentially provide first use to a very dominant midfield. It remains to be seen how much upside there is to his game should he put the heart issues behind him. If he can up his work rate substantially, and contribute more around the ground, it will make things very interesting.

Strong preseasons for our ruck division will leave us in spectacular shape going forward.

Build TDK’s tank and core.

Stabilise Pitto’s knee and allow a full preseason of conditioning.

Alleviate Mirkov’s heart condition and have him finish 2024 strongly to facilitate a re rookie scenario.

Natural physical development for December “foal” O’Keeffe to continue the journey for the promising, highly combative and mobile young ruck.

Similar physical development and exposure for Harry Lemmey who may firmly enter the mix as a forward who can provide a decent chop out in the ruck. (I still believe he can be a potentially better KPD, being led to the ball more - Ala Jones)

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

JSOS as 2nd ruck just ruins him, renders him pretty much worthless to do any other role....

Sure, he had a couple of good games in that role, then injured....., it's unsustainable.

JSOS is a 3rd/4th tall or he's not in the 22 imo.

 

[Coona Blues]

JSOS as 2nd ruck just ruins him, renders him pretty much worthless to do any other role....

Sure, he had a couple of good games in that role, then injured....., it's unsustainable.

JSOS is a 3rd/4th tall or he's not in the 22 imo.

Hope the coaches don’t share your views. If they do, they may not have extended his contract. Give Jack the choice between playing double figure numbers if games or maybe a handful as injury cover. What do you think his answer will be?

With Martin, Hollands, to a lesser extent Cuningham and some possibility of Kemp playing in the forward half, there is just no way Jack co-habituates with a two ruck model and we don’t currently have the developed players for other options.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Hope the coaches don’t share your views. If they do, they may not have extended his contract. Give Jack the choice between playing double figure numbers if games or maybe a handful as injury cover. What do you think his answer will be?

With Martin, Hollands, to a lesser extent Cuningham and some possibility of Kemp playing in the forward half, there is just no way Jack co-habituates with a two ruck model and we don’t currently have the developed players for other options.

Time will tell.

If they're prepared to sacrifice him....

 

[Bletch]

If the mooted move to a 5-man bench happens, it should allow us greater freedom to play two rucks. The time on ball for each will still be an issue.

 

[BluStreak]

Prior to Jack's injury he was playing some very good football as a Forward Ruck.
He was in the game more than when he was just playing forward. Also there were enough moments in game when he did win the ruck against pure ruck men. But it was always his follow up at the centre bounce that help us.
Jack has versatility that a lot of other players do not have.

 

[JustaBattler]

It has taken Vos two years to teach the team how to tackle. Development doesn't stop there the team has had only one year with a semi-functional wing position(s) covered. The HFF and small forward issues are yet to be bedded down and should form the core of the greatest level of improvement in execution of game plan in '24.

Whether the team plays one or two ( TDK + Pittonet) or one and half rucks ( TDK = Silvagni) is a relatively issue to fix compared to the above - irrespective, matchups depending on opposition will have a greater say on teh matter on a week to week basis. I suspect either Pittonet knee gets fixed/improved or alternative ruck combos are developed out of necessity. As for Pittonet cant forward - we will see if he can actually use both legs or not.

 

[blueboy25]

If TDK gets another full preseason under his belt he will be able to up his % on ground which means JSOS only helps out in the ruck less and less and gives him more time to get dangerous up forward.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Harden up Harry a little bit, with JSOS as a FWD/Ruck...problem solved.

 

[JustOneTime]

JSOS as 2nd ruck just ruins him, renders him pretty much worthless to do any other role....

Sure, he had a couple of good games in that role, then injured....., it's unsustainable.

JSOS is a 3rd/4th tall or he's not in the 22 imo.

I'm worried about this too. That physicality breaks him. I also have this fear with us being brutal stoppage side and injury carnage when others side have it easier with non-contact transition goals.

But it is easy to say no to JSoS but then when you go to the next point of considering a woeful Pitto (2023 version) it forces you back to consider JSoS. Pitto if limited by knee issues is poor in the ruck and around the ground and is a dire liability as a fwd.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Prior to Jack's injury he was playing some very good football as a Forward Ruck.
He was in the game more than when he was just playing forward. Also there were enough moments in game when he did win the ruck against pure ruck men. But it was always his follow up at the centre bounce that help us.
Jack has versatility that a lot of other players do not have.

This…
Jack, was just elevating his game up to another level altogether, actually thought his output before this he was actually providing a really solid chop out, particularly once the ball was on the ground his footy smarts & competiveness provided us with an advantage within/amongst the midfield setups…
About to peak as a B22

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Pitt and TDK. TDK/ 2nd fwd, Charlie 3rd fwd. No room for Jack in the 22.

 

[Wickzki]

TDK and Jack.

Sorry but the game has moved away from one dimensional rucks who offer absolutely nothing else.

Pittonet is a very solid home and away foot soldier but should not be anywhere near the 22 come finals.

He offers nothing forward, nothing defensively and he isn't a strong enough marker to be a consistent link man or target from D50 like modern rucks are expected to be which adds to the responsibilities of Charlie and Harry.

Not convinced Jack is everything we'd like him to be but he's a competitor and works his heart out. Would love to see some 4 quarter efforts from Jack as he has a tendency to have a great quarter or so and then has nothing left. That's the biggest problem that I see in his game.

 

[Earls Smother]

Classic "pre-season will determine" situation.

The fitter TDK gets, the harder it is to see how Pitto fits in. Pitto needs to be the main ruck if he plays, but ideally we don't want him to be, because TDK will be the much better around-the-ground player. We know what we will get from Jack and the less he has to ruck the more effective he can be elsewhere.

If I was Jack I would have been asking questions prior to re-signing. The fact that he did stay suggests to me that the answers were reasonably positive for him. The Grundy/Gawn situation will have convinced most sides that you don't want 2 blokes who are ruckmen-first in the team.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

TDK and Jack.

Sorry but the game has moved away from one dimensional rucks who offer absolutely nothing else.

Pittonet is a very solid home and away foot soldier but should not be anywhere near the 22 come finals.

He offers nothing forward, nothing defensively and he isn't a strong enough marker to be a consistent link man or target from D50 like modern rucks are expected to be which adds to the responsibilities of Charlie and Harry.

Not convinced Jack is everything we'd like him to be but he's a competitor and works his heart out. Would love to see some 4 quarter efforts from Jack as he has a tendency to have a great quarter or so and then has nothing left. That's the biggest problem that I see in his game.

As a forward Wick we know his marking has been inconsistent, he has had a tendency still to drop the easiest of marks either on the lead or particularly when floating up into the contest having first grab but unfortunately not hanging on to them…
Also when he does get his chance of kicking for goal, whether it’s a set shot or on the run in play he also has the tendency to miss the easy ones that mostly should be drilled, improve these two area’s ontop of his all round competitiveness & will to win wherever he plays he’ll become such a better more rounded player…
His ground ball hands and decision making within contests are as clean as can be…

 

[Arr0w]

Think it will be Pitto and TDK, but I'd say the club would be hoping O'Keffee puts on some size and strength quickly to take over from Pitto

Don't want to see Jsos in the ruck, think it hurts our clearance work

 

[My Hat]

I had Pitto as #1 ruck at the start of the year but reckon TDK is there now. Still not the finished product, but very much trending in the right direction.

Prefer to see JSOS over Pitto as the second ruck. Whatever we lose in a few ruck contests we more than make up for in the rest of play.

 

[JustOneTime]

Views are really split.

I think it indicates two things: nothing is really optimal here so it might be a balance of the options and based on form at the time.

Does it mean we wait for O'Keefe who i think is 2-3 years away from being a better option than at the very least Pitto. I'm loving O'keefe's development but our flag window is now.

Austin needs to make a choice on:

• Hoping one of the two scenarios discussed in this thread succeeds (TDK/JSos vs Pitto/TDK)
• Waiting and 'hoping' on O'keefe because you can't have elite players everywhere because it doesnt fit in salary cap
• Getting creative in 2024 trade period and joining the ruck merry go round to find someone who is a 10% upgrade on TDK as a ruck or Pitto as a ruck/fwd. It would be brutal and it looks like his hands are tied due to contract. But Grundy is a brutal play twice and Sydney profit. Ginnivan being forced out for Schulz is brutal.

 

[Soapy V]

I can't support the two ruck line up. Always looks like it limits our run

I hope McKay does a lot of Ruckwork over summer. He could really be our Joe Daniher. That role has really improved his game

IMO TDK will become a star in 2024 as a lone ruck.

With our forwards we can easily have TDK as Ruck (Pittonet is a good back up) and Jack, McKay both having a few minutes in the ruck at different times. With O'Keefe & Lemmey coming through there are lots of options for us