Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[AlecDuncan]

Reasonable I think considering only 1 elite ruckman has won a flag in the last 15 years

Maybe not generational, but I think you're underselling Nankervis and Ottens IMO.

 

[agro]

It does seem our rucks are either down on height or down on weight or down on both. Soon O'Keefe will face the same height issue at least.

It's important our smaller rucks are good around the ground or the problem is compounded.

O’Keefe is listed at 202cm and McIerneny is listed at 204cm, whilst height plays a role in ruck work - its use of the body that is more important.

Just ask John Nicholls (at 188cm) versus Len Thompson (at 199cm) - and the famous day Len Thompson fainted at Princes Park.

 

[Accidental genius]

This is a good question…

This is how I see it…..

Tdk can jump and is useful as a forward and in defence when needed to take grabs. Needs to continue working/improving his timing at centre bounces.

Pitto knows how to use his weight in rucks but elsewhere he is almost a liability. he struggles with all 3 key elements of footy…kicking marking and handballing.


….but somehow we seem to win more when pitto rucks..(I think this is right?)

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe not generational, but I think you're underselling Nankervis and Ottens IMO.

Nankervis is underrated but wouldn't say he has been an elite ruckman

Ottens I guess just falls into that 15 year period

 

[Soapy V]

TDK could easily be the No.1 sole ruck for us this year. He is physically and mentally ready to step up.

He is a Star

 

[JustaBattler]

McInerney is too big for our rucks. We aren't always going to nullify the opposition rucks with the stocks we have, but we can structure our side to nullify those big punches forward.

The Lions have fleet of foot half forwards coming up to the meet the ball, and smaller, quicker on ballers who can get moving quicker than our guys. This is where our focus on more pace in strategic positions comes in. We need a better blend of strength and pace at centre clearances and coming off the defensive and attacking lines to meet or nullify the contest.

This isn't or shouldn't be as much of an issue at around the ground stoppages.

One observation I want to make though, is how quick Cerra sums things up and gets to the fall of the ball in these ruck contests. He's a gem.

Dont know about 'too big' but yep I think that the midfield setups should/could have reorganized to counter the forward smash caper they employed - it wasn't as if they were the first team to use the strategy against us either..still, it was probably a semi miracle Voss could actually get some of the players on deck for that game. I think that more midfield rotation options would provide for greater matchup flexibility in game - so looking forward to seeing how the playing mix develops in 24

 

[TerryWallet]

I am still very much of the opinion that the TEAM of Pitto/TDK is OUR best ruck answer for OUR TEAM.

Each team has different personnel and different makeups and different styles. Some have stars in the ruck, some don't. Some have lone rucks, some have duos.

OUR stars are elsewhere, and imo, and i think Voss', the combo of Pitto/TDK services OUR team and makeup best. Everything evolves for sure, but our still current, and gradually evolving, makeup and style demands 2 rucks imo. They are a combo that greatly suit each other, and suit what is under, ahead, and behind them. And they suit who is coaching us. We have great contested mids at stoppages all over the ground. They only need a consistent 50/50 chance at getting the aggot first for us to be a potent team.

Nullifying, as well as winning ruck contests and marking contests, is part of OUR best ruck strategy imo.

 

[Earls Smother]

HTA is just a fraction of what is required by a ruckman

Nullifying the opposition ruckman's HTA, around the ground and forward presence are probably more vital

You specifically said' "This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout".

6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces - nothing to do with around the ground and forward presence. The fact is, none of the other top sides apart from Collingwood have a second ruckman that is any good at actually rucking. You don't need to negate someone who can't ruck in the first place.

JSOS can match or better most sides number 2 in every aspect other than height. We only want him rucking 20-odd percent of the time though.

 

[bigblueboy]

You specifically said' "This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout".

6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces - nothing to do with around the ground and forward presence. The fact is, none of the other top sides apart from Collingwood have a second ruckman that is any good at actually rucking. You don't need to negate someone who can't ruck in the first place.

JSOS can match or better most sides number 2 in every aspect other than height. We only want him rucking 20-odd percent of the time though.

I reckon TDK is a better option for that 20 per cent.
Would make us different to “the other top sides”. Potentially a significant advantage.

 

[Earls Smother]

I reckon TDK is a better option for that 20 per cent.
Would make us different to “the other top sides”. Potentially a significant advantage.

We all see it differently, which is fine.

That scenario will no doubt be used at times, pending match-ups.

Our best footy last year was at the start of our unbeaten run. The ruckmen then were TDK and Jack, which only changed when Jack did his knee.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Well, we won’t be seeing JSOS rucking anytime soon.

 

[Soapy V]

Lewis Young

33

Lewis Young

Age

26

Ht

202cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

197.9

3star

D

4.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

3.0

3star

T

0.0

1star

MG

26.0

1star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.2

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

6.4

5star

T

2.0

4star

MG

181.6

3star

needs to keep working on his ruck work
McKay needs to work on his

 

[Aphrodite]

You specifically said' "This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout".

6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces - nothing to do with around the ground and forward presence. The fact is, none of the other top sides apart from Collingwood have a second ruckman that is any good at actually rucking. You don't need to negate someone who can't ruck in the first place.

JSOS can match or better most sides number 2 in every aspect other than height. We only want him rucking 20-odd percent of the time though.

Well, we won’t be seeing JSOS rucking anytime soon.

Out for the season - ACL

Carlton forward Jack Silvagni will miss the upcoming 2024 AFL season after rupturing his anterior cruciate ligament (ACL).

The injury occurred during training today, with Silvagni immediately sent for scans, that subsequently confirmed the ACL injury.
The 26-year-old will have surgery before commencing his rehabilitation.

 

[JustaBattler]

Well that is bad news

 

[skadoosh]

Please give me a suspension for my question...

 

[JustOneTime]

Well sadly, there goes one of our levers. It's going to be Pitto+TDK or carry a weak ruck dept throughout the season IMO.

 

[Arr0w]

You specifically said' "This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout".

I know exactly what I said

6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces - nothing to do with around the ground and forward presence.

6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces, but Jsos gets slaughtered in that area and it shifts momentum against us in a big way. He just isn't tall enough and or have a leap to win or negative opposition ruckman

The fact is, none of the other top sides apart from Collingwood have a second ruckman that is any good at actually rucking. You don't need to negate someone who can't ruck in the first place.

This is purely opinion. Guys like Daniher are better centre bounce ruckmen than Jack, so are the likes of McLean, Dixon/Finlayson

JSOS can match or better most sides number 2 in every aspect other than height. We only want him rucking 20-odd percent of the time though.

Rubbish, he shouldn't be rucking unless we have injuries and if TDK and Pitto are fit he won't ruck at all

Jsos is like Bambi around these parts.

He is a competitive forward, great work ethic, smart, but is a poor kick for goal and a break glass ruckman when we have injuries

Let's call it for what it is

 

[Coona Blues]

I know exactly what I said


6 6 6 is only relevant at centre bounces, but Jsos gets slaughtered in that area and it shifts momentum against us in a big way. He just isn't tall enough and or have a leap to win or negative opposition ruckman


This is purely opinion. Guys like Daniher are better centre bounce ruckmen than Jack, so are the likes of McLean, Dixon/Finlayson

Rubbish, he shouldn't be rucking unless we have injuries and if TDK and Pitto are fit he won't ruck at all

Jsos is like Bambi around these parts.

He is a competitive forward, great work ethic, smart, but is a poor kick for goal and a break glass ruckman when we have injuries

Let's call it for what it is

I know you didn’t mean this to sound as harsh as it comes across. The day one of our favourite sons suffered an ACL.

I actually believe as a chop out ruckman, he has plenty of positives. The problem is that in the past, he was forced to do around 30% of ruck work, which is too much for a pinch hitter. Utilising Harry at forward contests as well as the physical development of TDK, who should be able to spend more time on the ball, would have made it an attractive proposition in 2024.

As posted earlier, Pitto and TDK remains our likely go to combo with good reason. The increased readiness of De Koning, however makes this somewhat wasteful when another “runner” can be played. 50/50 for Pitto and TDK is a poor balance for game time. Pitto doesn’t really have a second position. AHow many of us believe having TDK forward to 50 or 70% game time will complement Harry and Charlie when we are likely to have marking targets such as Martin and Elijah playing big minutes forward and Crippa working forward as well?

I believe we will have enhanced forward structures in 2024, but three tall, genuine marking targets as well as the other names is going to create some congestion.

Silvagni’s combative nature and his ability at ground level make him the perfect 10-20% ruck foil. What we lose in HTA’s we gain with an extra large ish body around the contest who tackles, blocks and creates.

The argument is moot due to Jack’s injury, but he was shaping as a critical player, either to give the big boys a rotation, or to enable an alternate balance around the ball as well as forward.

I actually have faith that TDK could become a viable 1-2, or better goal a game forward, but his value is as a mobile, high leaping ruck contributing around the ground. Jack, as you allude and TDK have both been unreliable in front of goal, but like others were more accurate with the heightened team performance late in ‘23. I suspect the pressure felt by individuals has reduced and most, if not all, now embrace the opportunity to hit the scoreboard and are not harbouring self doubt.

With TDK developed and hopefully Pittonet fit and completing a full pre season, the prospect of each of them being fit enough to play as lone ruck for ~80% of game time with a chop out is an attractive one. The dynamic has been significantly altered with Silvagni’s injury.

 

[BlueJet]

To each their own but I thought JSOS was soundly beaten in the ruck - no shame there given the size discrepancy.
Where we need improvement is in contested marking around the ground & the ability to provide a meaningful option up forward, the added benefit is this will help prevent opposition from sagging off to double Charlie or H.
TDK has shown some flashes & you'd hope he'd have gained some confidence after looking lively forward in the Semi-final.

 

[gab213]

I'm thinking that it will be a case of as you are for this season. The preferred combination will be Pitto/TDK with Pitto as number one when both are available.

 

[BlueNath]

I'm thinking that it will be a case of as you are for this season. The preferred combination will be Pitto/TDK with Pitto as number one when both are available.

Vossy made it clear last year that if Pitto is fit, he plays! Naturally, its a new year and game plan tweaks and strategies will be assessed and changed in readiness for 2024. I think Pitto is better at wearing down the oppo's #1 ruck (do the bash and crash work) so when TDK goes in he can use his athleticism (and freshness) to gain an advantage. TDK is great around the ground too. Its just a shame that Pitto does not give us much outside of ruck battles. Im not sure of Voss' thinking for 2024, but I agree... I think Pitto remains #1 ruck so we can protect TDK a little for high-impat spurts through the middle/ruck, as opposed to a TDK grinding away and wearing down in a 80-85% ruck ratio with H.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Thinking outside the square here.
Could KEMP play the JSos role???

 

[JustOneTime]

Its just a shame that Pitto does not give us much outside of ruck battles. Im not sure of Voss' thinking for 2024, but I agree... I think Pitto remains #1 ruck so we can protect TDK a little for high-impat spurts through the middle/ruck, as opposed to a TDK grinding away and wearing down in a 80-85% ruck ratio with H.

I think this is why losing JSoS is disappointing. We lose a lever to pull against sides that go in with a hybrid solution. Brissy can use Mcinerny and Daniher to pinch hit. It means their best 22 includes an extra runner which we cant match tactically.

Everyone sees different things with Pitto. I see HTA & better clearances + physicality/bullocking. But i really see him also get exposed defensively. He cant mark the ball much so certain ruckman can drag him back and beat him. It's glaring for mine. Sometimes in the defensive 50 he takes up bad positions.

If not Pitto then we will be forced to consider Young. A player that loses his confidence and is not close to JSoS in terms of temperament on succeeding week in week out. JSoS leaves no stone unturned on the ability he has. Young simply doubts himself.

JSoS being a lever/consideration meant I didnt mind any combo of JSoS/Pitto, TDK/JSoS, and Pitto/TDK. Losing JSoS as a lever means we are now forced to definitely play 2 out of 3 of our weakest players in the best 22 every week. TDK/Pitto/Young.

Absolutely not the end of the world but then we need to look across at the luck gods at teams like Brissy, Dees, Pies, Giants. Pies have lost Mcstay when they are light on for key forwards so no gripes there. Dees having trouble with their key forwards and injuries too plus Oliver. Luck equating. If the Giants and Brissy also face the same season long issue with a key player then game on.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Thinking outside the square here.
Could KEMP play the JSos role???

I’ll answer my own question
IMO, he has all the physical attributes, probably more so, but does he have the footy smarts?
That’s the $64k question

 

[JustOneTime]

K

I’ll answer my own question
IMO, he has all the physical attributes, probably more so, but does he have the footy smarts?
That’s the $64k question

Kemp (like Arrow has indicated) has attributes that suit forward 3rd tall. Namely Kemp is less great marking body on body. But very good in the clear or with a run and jump. That alone makes you think he could make a decent third tall forward as that role requires you to get up and down the ground leading away from your direct opponent. He has more speed than JSoS surely so another tick. Don't know about repeat running.

Despite all that, we have TDK, Kennedy and E Hollands that can all slot into that more physical 3rd tall forward role. Obv with Hollands its more just about quality of player rather than being considered a third tall.

I think they play one of those 3 in JSoS's role. It's also testament to JSoS who a lot mark down on this forum. He holds out those type of players from the third tall spot because of what he offers the team.