Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[JustOneTime]

Could you point out who has taken someone's point of view personally?

As for being limited in explaining a point of view, perhaps your content of playing the poster highlights a lack of depth and or limited in debating the subject topic

I didn't mention you. Similar to how you didn't mention me earlier. Without a name quoted/mentioned then i don't think it is playing the man.

 

[JustOneTime]

People bemoaning TDK and Pitto, one who hasn't reached maturity, the other being injured for most of his time at the club, yet we still finished top 3 this year

Amusing

Back on topic.

Every side is looking to improve year on year. Some of our competitors improved at the trade table etc. Other clubs will improve in transition and other areas.

The ruck area is an area we can look to improve markedly either by maturity/development or by innovation/structure/selection. Every part of our sides structure is a good topic of conversation in light of trying to find improvement to win a flag.

 

[Earls Smother]

People bemoaning TDK and Pitto, one who hasn't reached maturity, the other being injured for most of his time at the club, yet we still finished top 3 this year

Amusing

What is the point having a thread to discuss ruckmen, if people do so and are then accused of "bemoaning", and their comments denigrated as "amusing"? Debate in any thread is about getting better moving forward.

The ruck issue for us is worthy of discussion. We are the strongest clearance team and therefore rely heavily on our rucks not being badly beaten. We can't be in a situation where we; lose the ruck = lose the clearances = lose the game. All those things happened against Brisbane, but agree with you that they were important versus Gawn the week before. Having alternate suggestions is no different to people leaving Cottrell out of their best side, when he was our best in the first final against Sydney.

I will state the following as to why I think the issue is not clear cut:

In our resurgence from round 14, Pitto and TDK didn't play together in the first 5 wins. They were reunited in round 20 after JSOS did his knee. I accept that Pitto had his own knee issue, but none of us know what would have happened if Jack had stayed fit.

The other top sides were all using an accomplished forward as their number 2 ruck by the end of the season - Finlayson, Van Rooyen/McDonald, Daniher, McLean, Keefe, Caminiti/Owens, Cox/Cameron. Melbourne theoretically had the 2 best ruckmen in the league and couldn't make it work with both of them in the side. They sat Schache on the bench the whole game in the semi (preferring run), and we were fortunate that Gawn didn't kick straight.

We are a strong contested, clearance team. Given that, I accept we want to at least halve the ruck contests. Jack is slightly shorter than most of his opponents and therefore not ideal. Harry and/or the club, seem reluctant to play him in that role. Others are not ready.

What we don't know is, will we double down on our clearance strength or potentially adjust our balance? Voss inherited this list, he didn't build it. He values the contest, but our drafting and trading the last 2 years have been about adding run, speed and forward nous (Hewett and Cerra would have been locked in prior to Voss's appointment). We have actually reduced our inside mids, trading Dow and Ed retiring.

We have a number of quicker running types that we can add. Williams, EH, Fantasia and Binns could all change the dynamics of the team. That might make winning the clearances less of a necessity, thus influencing who we pick in the ruck.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Pitt is at best, our number 1 ruck.
TDK is hit & miss in there.
JSOS gets beaten but gets an extra handful of possessions.
The trade off is whether the ascendancy at the stoppage is worth that extra handful of possessions - I don't see it as a clear benefit either way & feel all need to put in work to be considered locks in the side.

From my perspective, TDK has a much larger influence out there than Pitto and I think he was enormous in our biggest wins this year.

No brainer for me.

 

[BlueJet]

From my perspective, TDK has a much larger influence out there than Pitto and I think he was enormous in our biggest wins this year.

No brainer for me.

That's a fair perspective.
IMO whilst TDK & JSOS do more around the ground, I feel their impact around the ground does get overstated a tad and they could probably do more too. (Using this season's stats we're talking a few possessions and a mark the difference)
I do seemingly rate the importance of tapwork higher than most though and Pitt is comfortably ahead in that aspect of the game and when fit he gives us an advantage at the stoppage that we don't get from the other two.
It wouldn't surprise me to see each of them rotated in and out of the side throughout the year - hopefully, competition for places in the side see each of them take steps forward.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

That's a fair perspective.
IMO whilst TDK & JSOS do more around the ground, I feel their impact around the ground does get overstated a tad and they could probably do more too. (Using this season's stats we're talking a few possessions and a mark the difference)
I do seemingly rate the importance of tapwork higher than most though and Pitt is comfortably ahead in that aspect of the game and when fit he gives us an advantage at the stoppage that we don't get from the other two.
It wouldn't surprise me to see each of them rotated in and out of the side throughout the year - hopefully, competition for places in the side see each of them take steps forward.

It's not so much the number of stats but moreso he tends to make big plays in the big moments and what he produces oozes leadership. But obviously Pitto has his strengths as well as you pointed out.

Will be interesting to see what happens next year but competition for spots can only be a positive!

 

[Arr0w]

Back on topic.

Every side is looking to improve year on year. Some of our competitors improved at the trade table etc. Other clubs will improve in transition and other areas.

The ruck area is an area we can look to improve markedly either by maturity/development or by innovation/structure/selection. Every part of our sides structure is a good topic of conversation in light of trying to find improvement to win a flag.

I read each thread and I still find this one amusing and contradicting, but I enjoy all opinions even if I don't agree

A number of items to consider when taking in the content in here

The thread title is based on TDK v Pitto, but perhaps given the content it would be more appropriate if it was "What is our best structure". That would cater for 1 ruckman or a number of different combinations

You mentioned stats and how TDK/Pitto rate compared to other ruckmen in the league. What particular measures would they be, HTA, SI, disposals, etc?

How do those stats measure effectiveness to the whole, the team, especially when you consider elite ruckmen in English, in a side that didn't make finals. There are many other so called statistically better ruckmen in sides that either didn't make finals and or finished below us this year

Perhaps, that might suggest, that either ruckmen are overrated or that their true effectiveness is difficult to determine by stats alone

You also mentioned that we are gifting games to TDK and Pitto, but surely that would mean we have better options on the list, that are either injured, or the MC aren't selecting them, but neither is the case.

Perhaps you mean a different combination of ruckmen?

The other factor is salary cap, where we have decided to spend our money in different areas/players and perhaps believe role players in the ruck is a better strategy. Reasonable I think considering only 1 elite ruckman has won a flag in the last 15 years

I have been consistently very clear as to my thoughts on our ruckmen, especially Pitto. I don't think he is a modern day ruckman, but I also think that guys like HOK, just isn't ready yet to take his spot

What is the point having a thread to discuss ruckmen, if people do so and are then accused of "bemoaning", and their comments denigrated as "amusing"? Debate in any thread is about getting better moving forward.

The ruck issue for us is worthy of discussion. We are the strongest clearance team and therefore rely heavily on our rucks not being badly beaten. We can't be in a situation where we; lose the ruck = lose the clearances = lose the game. All those things happened against Brisbane, but agree with you that they were important versus Gawn the week before. Having alternate suggestions is no different to people leaving Cottrell out of their best side, when he was our best in the first final against Sydney.

I will state the following as to why I think the issue is not clear cut:

In our resurgence from round 14, Pitto and TDK didn't play together in the first 5 wins. They were reunited in round 20 after JSOS did his knee. I accept that Pitto had his own knee issue, but none of us know what would have happened if Jack had stayed fit.

The other top sides were all using an accomplished forward as their number 2 ruck by the end of the season - Finlayson, Van Rooyen/McDonald, Daniher, McLean, Keefe, Caminiti/Owens, Cox/Cameron. Melbourne theoretically had the 2 best ruckmen in the league and couldn't make it work with both of them in the side. They sat Schache on the bench the whole game in the semi (preferring run), and we were fortunate that Gawn didn't kick straight.

We are a strong contested, clearance team. Given that, I accept we want to at least halve the ruck contests. Jack is slightly shorter than most of his opponents and therefore not ideal. Harry and/or the club, seem reluctant to play him in that role. Others are not ready.

What we don't know is, will we double down on our clearance strength or potentially adjust our balance? Voss inherited this list, he didn't build it. He values the contest, but our drafting and trading the last 2 years have been about adding run, speed and forward nous (Hewett and Cerra would have been locked in prior to Voss's appointment). We have actually reduced our inside mids, trading Dow and Ed retiring.

We have a number of quicker running types that we can add. Williams, EH, Fantasia and Binns could all change the dynamics of the team. That might make winning the clearances less of a necessity, thus influencing who we pick in the ruck.

Perhaps the above also addressed the items in your post, if it didn’t, happy to detail a response

 

[JustaBattler]

Carlton rucks allowed the Brisbane ruckman to just smash the ball forward and took Carltons inside game away ( Brisbane weren't the only team to do this during the season) weren't- between him and their unmarked HBFer - they turned the game around by 50 points in quick time - yes many players were playing very sore - but our rucks were smashed- in the GF the Brisbane ruckman was hopeless.

I look forward to a fit Pittonet not allowing any ruckman the luxury of fisting teh ball over the back of our mids heads in every ruck contest for 2 whole quarters- almost as much as the midfield set ups being able to nullify this schoolboy tactic.

Both TDK and Pittonet need to harden up.

 

[Earls Smother]

Carlton rucks allowed the Brisbane ruckman to just smash the ball forward and took Carltons inside game away ( Brisbane weren't the only team to do this during the season) weren't- between him and their unmarked HBFer - they turned the game around by 50 points in quick time - yes many players were playing very sore - but our rucks were smashed- in the GF the Brisbane ruckman was hopeless.

I look forward to a fit Pittonet not allowing any ruckman the luxury of fisting teh ball over the back of our mids heads in every ruck contest for 2 whole quarters- almost as much as the midfield set ups being able to nullify this schoolboy tactic.

Both TDK and Pittonet need to harden up.

Collingwood did the same as us re the ruck approach - more or less rotating 2 against 1.

The TOG% is quite telling. Brisbane rucks 90% TOG, Collingwood 63% (Cameron only 59%). That is a lot of bench time being munched up by one position and impacts the ability to rotate and rest other players. Difference is, they won the ruck battle.

In our game, Brisbane rucks 89% TOG, Carlton 68%. With an already tired team, we are again using a lot of bench time for 1 position. If you do that, you cannot afford to lose that position or you are seriously compromised. Omac losing the ruck in the GF is not as damaging, as his counterpart in Daniher was still effective, kicking 3 goals.

For comparison, the last time we used a different combo for a full game (round 19 v Port, TDK and JSOS) our boys were 80% - exactly the same as Ports.

 

[Doro]

It's set up for TDK to keep progressing and move into the elite category. Not sure if he will or not, he doesn't win the hitouts as much as I'd like to see yet. Pitto in the times of full fitness offers a lot, just struggles to stay fully fit.

 

[JustaBattler]

Collingwood did the same as us re the ruck approach - more or less rotating 2 against 1.

The TOG% is quite telling. Brisbane rucks 90% TOG, Collingwood 63% (Cameron only 59%). That is a lot of bench time being munched up by one position and impacts the ability to rotate and rest other players. Difference is, they won the ruck battle.

In our game, Brisbane rucks 89% TOG, Carlton 68%. With an already tired team, we are again using a lot of bench time for 1 position. If you do that, you cannot afford to lose that position or you are seriously compromised. Omac losing the ruck in the GF is not as damaging, as his counterpart in Daniher was still effective, kicking 3 goals.

For comparison, the last time we used a different combo for a full game (round 19 v Port, TDK and JSOS) our boys were 80% - exactly the same as Ports.

I'm not against a two ruck set-up - especially if one of them is capable of rotating forward - but it is imperative that against a one ruck set up - you win that match up. It was awful to watch big M dominate the ball ups as he did and pretty much set up their midfield - against Collingwood he was an ineffective pussy cat maybe the game against Carlton took it out of him who knows.... allowing Cameron to see tup play with kicks from HBF was just as bad-

Not a lot of difference between most teams and this year's finishing positions dont say anything about next year in my book. But you have to have your tall big blokes assert presence on field - otherwise what is the point- good signs from TDK in finals hopefully he progresses ....if teh team is going to concede taps like it did against Brisbane - may as well play Jack Silvagni as second ruck - and focus on defensive spread when he is on..

 

[Arr0w]

What's the general consensus here between TDK + Pitto vs TDK + JSOS?

Dragged it over to this thread for obvious reasons

Personally, if fit Pitto & TDK will both play, unless the opposition is decimated with injuries to ruckmen

That would mean Jsos is picked for his forward prowess

If all 3 are selected, 1 would most likely be subbed at some stage to give us more run

 

[agro]

I wasn’t a huge fan of Pittonet however he won me over (for his ruck work) in the last 5 minutes of the final against Melbourne- he actually beat Gawn in a few telling ruck contests which were critical to our win in that game.

To win me over totally he needs to improve his marking around the ground.

But long term Tom is the man!!!

 

[Arr0w]

I wasn’t a huge fan of Pittonet however he won me over (for his ruck work) in the last 5 minutes of the final against Melbourne- he actually beat Gawn in a few telling ruck contests which were critical to our win in that game.

To win me over totally he needs to improve his marking around the ground.

But long term Tom is the man!!!

Agree completely

I thought Pitto (along with TDK) also did a great job minimising Gawn's strengths in round 22 as well

Spoke after the game and stated that Gawn has a number of strengths and the focus was to minimise some of those areas

 

[BlueJet]

Each of those in the mix has areas in their game that require improvement, each has room for improvement forward and around the ground. Hopefully, competition for spots sees each take their game to another level.
When fit, I like Pittonet as our no.1 ruck with TDK offering a change of pace against tiring/battered opposition.

It'll be interesting to monitor the progression of O'Keeffe too, whilst he is quite raw, there's some scope for he and TDK to form quite a handy tandem in time.

 

[JustOneTime]

Each of those in the mix has areas in their game that require improvement, each has room for improvement forward and around the ground. Hopefully, competition for spots sees each take their game to another level.

I think this best explains it and why this thread has had legs for seasons. Neither Pitto or TDK has owned the role with respect given to TDK being younger and improving all the time. Pitto to a lesser degree too due to few games played.

The issue is around their floor/poor games. Both are pretty bad when struggling. Both are around 'decent' vs peers when in good form. Except for the odd game neither ever dominate like a Gawn, Darcy, English, Grundy etc...

Due to each having weaknesses I'm not sure either ever dominates so the debate will rage on bringing JSoS into the conversation as a partner. It's hard to fathom carrying in 2 weaker players quality-wise every week. JSoS adds so much defensively, and from an AFL IQ perspective, is leagues ahead of the other 2.

We have A graders now on every line and like every other top 4 club are carrying some 'ok' players in some positions. I think this is one of them unless TDK breaks out crazy in the next two years. I doubt Pitto could break out.

On a positive note, stat-wise they are trending up. They have been moving from 'very' low rankings in key stats (2 seasons ago) to acceptable rankings in key stats in 2023.

 

[BlueJet]

I think this best explains it and why this thread has had legs for seasons. Neither Pitto or TDK has owned the role with respect given to TDK being younger and improving all the time. Pitto to a lesser degree too due to few games played.

The issue is around their floor/poor games. Both are pretty bad when struggling. Both are around 'decent' vs peers when in good form. Except for the odd game neither ever dominate like a Gawn, Darcy, English, Grundy etc...

Due to each having weaknesses I'm not sure either ever dominates so the debate will rage on bringing JSoS into the conversation as a partner. It's hard to fathom carrying in 2 weaker players quality-wise every week. JSoS adds so much defensively, and from an AFL IQ perspective, is leagues ahead of the other 2.

We have A graders now on every line and like every other top 4 club are carrying some 'ok' players in some positions. I think this is one of them unless TDK breaks out crazy in the next two years. I doubt Pitto could break out.

On a positive note, stat-wise they are trending up. They have been moving from 'very' low rankings in key stats (2 seasons ago) to acceptable rankings in key stats in 2023.

Agreed.
This is where it'll continue to be a balancing act of sorts until we've got some certainty around what exactly TDK is as a finished product as he has the highest ceiling both forward & in the ruck - at least around the ground.
With the other two, you're essentially working around limitations in their games in the hope that their strengths provide us with enough benefit.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

If Mackay can't play ruck fwd with SOS chop out sometimes and we go with two genuine rucks I can't see silvagni in side if Jack Martin

19

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

Curnow Mackay all fit

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Carlton rucks allowed the Brisbane ruckman to just smash the ball forward and took Carltons inside game away ( Brisbane weren't the only team to do this during the season) weren't- between him and their unmarked HBFer - they turned the game around by 50 points in quick time - yes many players were playing very sore - but our rucks were smashed- in the GF the Brisbane ruckman was hopeless.

I look forward to a fit Pittonet not allowing any ruckman the luxury of fisting teh ball over the back of our mids heads in every ruck contest for 2 whole quarters- almost as much as the midfield set ups being able to nullify this schoolboy tactic.

Both TDK and Pittonet need to harden up.

McInerney is too big for our rucks. We aren't always going to nullify the opposition rucks with the stocks we have, but we can structure our side to nullify those big punches forward.

The Lions have fleet of foot half forwards coming up to the meet the ball, and smaller, quicker on ballers who can get moving quicker than our guys. This is where our focus on more pace in strategic positions comes in. We need a better blend of strength and pace at centre clearances and coming off the defensive and attacking lines to meet or nullify the contest.

This isn't or shouldn't be as much of an issue at around the ground stoppages.

One observation I want to make though, is how quick Cerra sums things up and gets to the fall of the ball in these ruck contests. He's a gem.

 

[JustOneTime]

McInerney is too big for our rucks. We aren't always going to nullify the opposition rucks with the stocks we have, but we can structure our side to nullify those big punches forward.

It does seem our rucks are either down on height or down on weight or down on both. Soon O'Keefe will face the same height issue at least.

It's important our smaller rucks are good around the ground or the problem is compounded.

 

[Arr0w]

Think Pitto and or TDK will be fine to play the role Voss and co want

Don't want to see Jsos in the ruck on a semi regular basis, was smashed in the ruck and shifted momentum away from a team output perspective

This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout

 

[Earls Smother]

Think Pitto and or TDK will be fine to play the role Voss and co want

Don't want to see Jsos in the ruck on a semi regular basis, was smashed in the ruck and shifted momentum away from a team output perspective

This stuff comes up every year, but with the 6 6 6, sides that play 2 genuine ruck options, fair far better than 1 ruck + a Grigg type chopout

The main job of a centre bounce ruckman is to hit the ball to a team mate (HTA). On that basis, Collingwood's 2 ruckmen are way better than any other combination. Both can ruck and both are effective when forward.

None of the other finals teams had an effective second ruckman. McLean did pretty well against us the first week of finals with 4, but the following list shows how ineffective the number 2 ruckmen were in terms of HTA.

Keefe, 7 HTA's from 3 games
Caminiti, 0 HTA from 1 game
McDonald and DVR, 0 HTA from 2 games
Finlayson and Dixon, 1 HTA from 2 games
Daniher, 2 HTA from 3 games

TDK matched Keefe with 7 HTA's across our 3 finals. None of those number 2 ruckmen (excluding ours) are actually any good. Brisbane went within a kick of winning a flag with Daniher having a total of 48 hitouts from 26 games. JSOS averaged more with 47 from 16 games.

The finals teams (apart from Collingwood and us) all had 1 dominant ruckman, who shouldered the bulk of the load. Marshall, Briggs, Gawn, Omac, Lycett and Hickey carried their team's ruck division. The latter 2 obviously have to be replaced.

We will be much better off when one of our guys can dominate the ruck minutes. The other one needs to be an effective forward.

 

[ianh]

I see Pitto as a necessary stopgap measure as I dont think TDK is ready to solo ruck with backup from anyone we have. Mirkov, O'Keefe and Lemmey aren't ready though I have hopes for all of them, whilst McKay doesn't seem keen and/0r the MC aren't keen to have him do any meaningful ruck minutes, Young is a break glass in emergency and JSOS despite giving his all is not someone you want doing more than a brief chop-out which I think TDK needs more than. No one else comes to mind. My ideal world McKay or Lemmey steps up to give meaningful relief minutes but at this stage that seems unlikely. We NEED to get value out of whoever we have as our second ruck in a secondary position but I struggle to see who that can be who also gives us anything much in the ruck. I think also Pitto is at this stage anyway the only ruckman we have to put up against a big bodied oppo ruck. Much as I'd like to move on from Pitto who I see as limited not a modern day ruckman I think at least against many opponents he will be necessary. The question then becomes can we get enough second role value out of him and TDK to run both of them or does the second role value of, say, JSOS outweigh the loss of ruck impact when he goes in there.

 

[Arr0w]

The main job of a centre bounce ruckman is to hit the ball to a team mate (HTA). On that basis, Collingwood's 2 ruckmen are way better than any other combination. Both can ruck and both are effective when forward.

None of the other finals teams had an effective second ruckman. McLean did pretty well against us the first week of finals with 4, but the following list shows how ineffective the number 2 ruckmen were in terms of HTA.

Keefe, 7 HTA's from 3 games
Caminiti, 0 HTA from 1 game
McDonald and DVR, 0 HTA from 2 games
Finlayson and Dixon, 1 HTA from 2 games
Daniher, 2 HTA from 3 games

TDK matched Keefe with 7 HTA's across our 3 finals. None of those number 2 ruckmen (excluding ours) are actually any good. Brisbane went within a kick of winning a flag with Daniher having a total of 48 hitouts from 26 games. JSOS averaged more with 47 from 16 games.

The finals teams (apart from Collingwood and us) all had 1 dominant ruckman, who shouldered the bulk of the load. Marshall, Briggs, Gawn, Omac, Lycett and Hickey carried their team's ruck division. The latter 2 obviously have to be replaced.

We will be much better off when one of our guys can dominate the ruck minutes. The other one needs to be an effective forward.

HTA is just a fraction of what is required by a ruckman

Nullifying the opposition ruckman's HTA, around the ground and forward presence are probably more vital

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

McInerney is too big for our rucks. We aren't always going to nullify the opposition rucks with the stocks we have, but we can structure our side to nullify those big punches forward.

The Lions have fleet of foot half forwards coming up to the meet the ball, and smaller, quicker on ballers who can get moving quicker than our guys. This is where our focus on more pace in strategic positions comes in. We need a better blend of strength and pace at centre clearances and coming off the defensive and attacking lines to meet or nullify the contest.

This isn't or shouldn't be as much of an issue at around the ground stoppages.

One observation I want to make though, is how quick Cerra sums things up and gets to the fall of the ball in these ruck contests. He's a gem.

We had more inside 50's and more clearances than Brisbane in that game (the opportunities existed). But the quality, speed and precision was mostly poor, which allowed their halfbacks to rebound endlessly.
I just hope we don't play an under-done Pitto again and develop Harry into a adequate forward ruck.