Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Could TDK be AA if he played like this for the rest of the year?

Max Gawn won’t be replaced if he keeps playing the way he has for the rest of the year, but he’d definitely would have to be a chance on the interchange bench, Grundy would be right up there atm…
Then again i have very little faith in some of the overall decisions that the selectors make yearly…

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Max Gawn won’t be replaced if he keeps playing the way he has for the rest of the year, but he’d definitely would have to be a chance on the interchange bench, Grundy would be right up there atm…
Then again i have very little faith in some of the overall decisions that the selectors make yearly…

Yes indeed …TDK’s tough to ignore though isn’t he

 

[Juddernaut08]

Surely debate is over

TDK is a beast as the no.1 ruck and we are so much more balanced with the extra run

Pitto is decent backup, but even against gun rucks I dont want to see two rucks wasting our star

 

[JustOneTime]

Really interested to see what Voss does now. Looks like most of the games coming up could be one ruck games.

At some point TDK will need a chopout.

Think Voss has changed his view now which is a sign of a good coach when presented with evidence. So long as TDK performs to that type of level (last 3 or 4 weeks), we are better placed with the TDK/Mckay model.

This has nothing to do with the ruck, but Elijah Hollands, looking a beauty!!

 

[Cripps2Walsh]

You can see the Kreuzer influence with TDK.

Difference is he has physical tools Kreuzer didn't have, or maybe more accurately was robbed of with injuries. Hope TDK can stay fit.

It's interesting that all our rucks, whether TDK or Pitto or even Harry a couple times, often go the push off, grab ball from ruck and go the clearance. Its clearly a trained thing.

Huge bump to T2B's comment here - TDK plays like the Kruezer we all wanted, albeit with more athleticism.

As much plaudits as TDK has received and deserved this year, big Matty Kruezer and his tutelage is equally stamped all over him.

You love to see it.

 

[onesilop]

I think last year when we were without pitto and TDK and young and sos rucking instead it showed that you need to provide more than taps to be a contributing ruckman.

It seems that TDK has learnt the lesson and then some.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

The problems with playing both at the same time, is that when Pitto plays, he has to be 1st ruck, because he doesn't offer anything else. When he's 1st ruck, we lose a bit around the ground. He's fine at the ruck contests, but once the ball is moving, he becomes a liability. Not even useful as a marking target in packs at kick ins.
And when TDK is forced to play most of his time as a fwd, we lose something in the forward line. TDK tends to fly for the same balls as Harry and Charlie.
My preference is TDK/Harry combo, with Cripps taking the odd stoppage and even Weiters in D50. If Tom needs a rest, then give him the game off and go with Pitto/Harry, which I don't believe we've really seen.
Play Tom 5-7 games, then rest. 5-7 games, then bye. 5-7 games, then rest. 5-7 games, then pre-finals rest.
The problem with that is that Pitto isn't going to hang around for 3-4 games a year.

 

[Arr0w]

Future prediction, I think TDK and Pitto will both play in finals

 

[ESKIE]

Future prediction, I think TDK and Pitto will both play in finals

2 rucks on game day

 

[JustOneTime]

The problems with playing both at the same time, is that when Pitto plays, he has to be 1st ruck, because he doesn't offer anything else. When he's 1st ruck, we lose a bit around the ground. He's fine at the ruck contests, but once the ball is moving, he becomes a liability. Not even useful as a marking target in packs at kick ins.
And when TDK is forced to play most of his time as a fwd, we lose something in the forward line. TDK tends to fly for the same balls as Harry and Charlie.
My preference is TDK/Harry combo, with Cripps taking the odd stoppage and even Weiters in D50. If Tom needs a rest, then give him the game off and go with Pitto/Harry, which I don't believe we've really seen.
Play Tom 5-7 games, then rest. 5-7 games, then bye. 5-7 games, then rest. 5-7 games, then pre-finals rest.
The problem with that is that Pitto isn't going to hang around for 3-4 games a year.

Spot on.

I think it has taken a while for the club to realise this (they are typically slow to change as they dont want to feel pushed into things when it might not be that mechanic specifically that is wrong). It has helped by TDK going on a surge and it has helped by improved gains in our turnover game. The extra runner helps us run out games too.

What to do with Pitto. God knows as his hitouts to adv can be sublime, albeit for a qtr or half a game. After that, they typically negate him quite well.

 

[Sector 7G]

Really interested to see what Voss does now. Looks like most of the games coming up could be one ruck games.

At some point TDK will need a chopout.

Think Voss has changed his view now which is a sign of a good coach when presented with evidence. So long as TDK performs to that type of level (last 3 or 4 weeks), we are better placed with the TDK/Mckay model.

This has nothing to do with the ruck, but Elijah Hollands, looking a beauty!!

I think round 1-4 TDK and Pitt was the best option.

Round 11-15 TDK by himself is next level and clearly the best option. The heights TDK has risen to in the last 4 games is a shock and takes the Blues to top 2 position in the comp

 

[DangerousD]

Seeing Pitto named for this game is a concern, Toms game has been going from strength to strength the past weeks, with his dominance seeming to come as the game goes on.

Just my observations, Toms game suffered with Pitto in the team as he was relegated to part time ruck.

Harry and Charlie’s game both suffered, as when Tom is resting forward, he takes up space left for the other two if he’s in the ruck.

With a team that is built on contested footy and stoppages, playing one ruck allows us to pick another mid, small forward or nimble player, that helps with team balance, two rucks takes that away and is dangerous.

After the hit outs Pitto struggles to mark the ball, provide an outlet or influence the game.

Pitto is great back up, but I hope he stays that way.

 

[macky99]

Future prediction, I think TDK and Pitto will both play in finals

Would that not be step backwards, TDK has had so much growth playing the number one role, he also virtually plays as another mid fielder.

No problem playing a support ruck to TDK, but Pitto lacks flexibility to play more than one role.
l can see Pitto playing a few games to give TDK a spell, but highly questionable whether going back to two rucks is the best solution going forward.

 

[Arr0w]

Would that not be step backwards, TDK has had so much growth playing the number one role, he also virtually plays as another mid fielder.

No problem playing a support ruck to TDK, but Pitto lacks flexibility to play more than one role.
l can see Pitto playing a few games to give TDK a spell, but highly questionable whether going back to two rucks is the best solution going forward.

IMHO, people might be just looking at a couple of aspects, TDK and the side playing well

Pitto hasn't played with TDK, while having a settled lineup, as Wiilams, Cincotta weren't in their new roles and missing Saad, Gov for that period when Pitto was in the side

I still hold the view that we could be more dangerous/effective with both in the side come finals

 

[macky99]

IMHO, people might be just looking at a couple of aspects, TDK and the side playing well

Pitto hasn't played with TDK, while having a settled lineup, as Wiilams, Cincotta weren't in their new roles and missing Saad, Gov for that period when Pitto was in the side

I still hold the view that we could be more dangerous/effective with both in the side come finals

Possibly but if we can keep TDK fresh for finals, it will be a better option.
TDK can be a genuine A grade player by continuing in this role, not sure it helps him or the side.
Alot still to play out in the season, Pitto will get some games, alot may depend on the opposition & form at the time.

 

[JustOneTime]

Possibly but if we can keep TDK fresh for finals, it will be a better option.
TDK can be a genuine A grade player by continuing in this role, not sure it helps him or the side.
Alot still to play out in the season, Pitto will get some games, alot may depend on the opposition & form at the time.

There is def enough information so far that TDK is much less effective in the side with Pitto. Who in their right mind wants to see this recur.

There is debatable information supporting better defensive transition and more run late in games not carrying Pitto. Debatable information that we score more goals from turnover/transition.

There is definitely debatable information that Pitto has faded as the game goes on. Indicates a good sub option if that continued. Over 18 months there is debatable information that Pitto is weak in the defensive 50 against opponent ruckman. Outmarked and infringing.

The chance of Pitto returning as a two ruck combo is a horse for course event like Freo type match or in the situation where TDK drops away (which is quite possible). In that later case, we would all welcome Pitto into the side. TDK is not guaranteed to keep up this level plus TDK has rucked vs Sam De Koning, an aging Goldstien, Soldo and and underdone Witts. I do like two of those ruckman but they have not been flying.

Nankervis is a good test and would be setting himself for TDK. I'm looking forward to TDK's performance.

 

[gbatman]

TDK isn't just winning the ball and getting clearances. He's having massive influence on the game. His possessions hurt. AFL sides hate seeing the ball come out the front of stoppages like that, he does it a lot. Grabs it out of the ruck for clean clearances. Takes marks around the ground. Kicks goals. Has leg speed and gets involved in general play and tackling. Lets see if he can keep things going. I haven't seen a ruck this good at our club since Matthew Allen's 2000 season.

 

[goreds]

TDK isn't just winning the ball and getting clearances. He's having massive influence on the game. His possessions hurt. AFL sides hate seeing the ball come out the front of stoppages like that, he does it a lot. Grabs it out of the ruck for clean clearances. Takes marks around the ground. Kicks goals. Has leg speed and gets involved in general play and tackling. Lets see if he can keep things going. I haven't seen a ruck this good at our club since Matthew Allen's 2000 season.

Geez, our current ruck coach showed a bit!

 

[gbatman]

Geez, our current ruck coach showed a bit!

He was decent but he wasn't ever at the level DeKoning is currently and never had a season as good as Matthew Allen's 1999 season where he finished third in the brownlow. Allen's 2000 season was also very good but was overlooked in AA selection.

I felt we overrated Kreuzer a little because he was ours and was a former number 1 pick. To me he was an above average ruck but not often in the top echelon like DeKoning currently is or Matthew Allen was (1999 AA and 3rd Brownlow). He probably had one or two seasons where he was pretty close to the top rucks but not quite. I think his 2017 season he was pretty well up there as a top line ruck. I can't recall if he was considered for AA but I thought at the time he should have been in the ballpark.

Kreuzer sits on a long list of players from that era who would have been better if he was developed properly and underachieved because of it. He played most of his career with a massive flaw in his marking technique where he would drop his head and not have his eyes on the footy when it hit his hands. This was corrected when Malthouse arrived at Carlton but Kreuzer was at the back end of his career by then. It's amazing how bad we were when you think back with player development.

To me DeKoning is a similar player but a much better version. More athletic, better developed. Better overhead, quicker, more agile and and cleaner by hand, more dangerous forward and winning more of the footy.

A ruckman who is winning hitouts, getting over 20 possessions a game, kicking goals, laying tackles, getting big clearance numbers and clearances out the front of the contest. His stats and influence on the game is mind boggling. He's probably equal most important and influential player. It's the most exciting footy I have seen from a ruck in a long time. DeKoning at the moment is matching it with Gawn and Grundy who are very special generational ruckmen.

You probably have to go back to Justin Madden's 1995 season to find the next elite Carlton ruckman. Madden being a very different type of ruck compared to TDK, Kreuzer and Allen. But he was very very good and exceptional in 1995.

It's a credit to Kreuzer, our ruck coach, with the way he is playing. You can see the influence there. He's playing like Kreuzer but at a higher level.

The question will be, can DeKoning keep it up? I think he will, he's in the zone now, going to be very hard to stop. The team we have at the moment, it's by far the best we have had since 1995. It's better than our 2000 team. That helps an individual a lot.

 

[Thrawn]

It's better than our 2000 team. That helps an individual a lot.

Don't agree at all.

In 2000 we were a chance to beat that * side were it not for injuries. We had Kouta at the height of his powers who was better than any player on our list currently, and the backline we had with Silvagni, Sexton and McKay was a lot better than our current backline. In our 13 game winning streak, we were obliterating sides to the point where it was beating *'s average... that included top 4 sides. Even against finalists like Brisbane, at the Gabba, do you see our current team belting them by 8 goals up there? I don't.

 

[gbatman]

Don't agree at all.

In 2000 we were a chance to beat that * side were it not for injuries. We had Kouta at the height of his powers who was better than any player on our list currently, and the backline we had with Silvagni, Sexton and McKay was a lot better than our current backline. In our 13 game winning streak, we were obliterating sides to the point where it was beating *'s average... that included top 4 sides. Even against finalists like Brisbane, at the Gabba, do you see our current team belting them by 8 goals up there? I don't.

It is a good argument. It was a very good side but it was also a little reliant on Kouta. Is that a bad thing? He was very good that season. Let's see what our current side can do, it's still growing. I think we might bat a bit deeper now.

 

[JustOneTime]

Nankervis was a tough matchup for Pitto. I think when i looked it was 24/9 in hitouts to half time in favour of Nank. Clearances i'm not sure as i didnt look but we'd probably find they were ahead given we finished strongly and they ended up equal.

Nank had twice as many hitouts and clearances by games end (the latter bit a strengths of TDKs). For some reason Pitto couldn't execute his hitouts to adv this time.

With the turnaround that came and marginally better performance from Pitto in the second half, i guess maybe our midfielders starting roving to Nank instead of Pitto (only a guess). The sheer effort rather than structure IMO saw the change and Carlton kick away late.

Turnover goals, goals from the back half. I can't see how Pitto/one ruck option had any hand in that. More explained by Tigers youth/poorness/tiredness late in qtrs. We tended to overrun them late in quarters.

Anyway, tough matchup as Nank was setting himself to hammer TDK but ended up with Pitto. TDK gets the chop out he needed.

For Pitto, he needs another level next time to challenge or for TDK's form to drop away.

 

[BluStreak]

I know that in the 3rd Qtr there is one of the goals that you see clearly at the centre bounce, Pitto tapping it straight into Crippa's hands for Crippa to burst out of congestion and release forward.
I know that is but one example and TDK is streets ahead but I dont see TDK tapping straight to one of our players.
His are more to his feet, to no one in particular or to where he can get it, thus he clears it himself.
That is not a slight on TDK but just some area for him to work on.

 

[JustOneTime]

I know that in the 3rd Qtr there is one of the goals that you see clearly at the centre bounce, Pitto tapping it straight into Crippa's hands for Crippa to burst out of congestion and release forward.
I know that is but one example and TDK is streets ahead but I dont see TDK tapping straight to one of our players.
His are more to his feet, to no one in particular or to where he can get it, thus he clears it himself.
That is not a slight on TDK but just some area for him to work on.

Def agree that Pitto's tools include a better hit out to adv than TDKs. TDK's adv is clearances away from stoppage, more speed around the ground and more competitiveness around the ground. I think both lose the hitouts to Nank.

It's only one game and a hard one. Pitto got the short straw compared to TDKs recent opponents. I'd of still expected more from Pitto if im honest. He has to match TDKs rise or he will miss out.

 

[BluStreak]

the other aspect is that Nank was focused on physcality against Pitto (TDK if he played).
I like the match up of Pitto against Nank/mumford type rucks.