Coach Football department changes going forward

Remove this Banner Ad

dogwatch said:
Not having a go at you Woof but I think we need to dispense with the line that he is "the most successful coach in our history". While there's a decent case to be made (but could certainly be debated due to the list quality available to each coach) it makes it sound like he is better than anybody we've had going back 140 years and that he's untouchable. It's getting in the way of objective and constructive discussions about his current merits and shortcomings.

Apart from the fact that most arguments ignore our 9 flags in 27 years in the VFA (then a strong competition) there can simply be NO comparison between Footscray/WB after Fightback and whatever existed before.

The reasons are fairly obvious so I won't go into them in detail but they include the fact that we were run by a bunch of well-meaning amateurs for many decades (but who nevertheless managed to bankrupt the club of funds and footballing talent) and the fact that most of the current equalisation measures came into effect in the late 80s and early 90s, in particular the salary cap and the draft giving smaller clubs opportunities to succeed that they never had before. Also prior to 1972 finals was only played by the top 4. From 1972 to 1990 it was a top 5 and since 1994 it has been a top 8 so the proportion of teams making the finals and getting the double chance has increased significantly, even with the expanded competition. Combine that with the almost guaranteed promise of survival through AFL distribution of broadcast revenues and it rapidly becomes obvious that any club or coaching performance comparisons going back beyond 1990 are pretty meaningless.

So out of Wheeler, Joyce, Wallace, Rohde, Eade, McCartney and Beveridge I would probably put Beveridge just in front but he's not the messiah. Winning us a flag made him a legend but six seasons have passed since then and we have won finals in only one of those subsequent seasons.

FWIW, here's a table of coaches and their success rates since 1990. Of those I'd say Beveridge has had the best list consistently available to him, just ahead of Wallace and then Eade. (Wheeler deserves more credit than he has ever received IMO but that's a separate discussion.)

View attachment 1551997
Another observation is that Beveridge ranks ninth of current AFL coaches (minimum one season) in terms of overall winning percentage. Those ahead of him are (in order) C.Scott, McRae, Longmire, Clarkson, Hinkley, Goodwin, Simpson, Hardwick. He's definitely up there close to the better ones but overall is ranked about middle of the current pack.

So we're better off having the coach/assistant coach discussions in terms of what's been going right and wrong for the last 2 seasons (especially 2022), not the last 8.

I'm OK with re-signing him if there's been a proper and objective review that recommends it but it mustn't be unconditional. As you say, some changes need to be made.

We need to be ruthlessly focussed on a top four finish. What happened in 2016 is now in the annals of past glories. The satisfaction of it mustn't cloud our decisions about what's best for us in 2023 and beyond. Right now my biggest concern is our inability to sustain a solid competitive effort for four quarters in big matches. Not once or twice but many times since we ran out for the 2021 GF.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. Even adjusting for the AFL era, I think Bevo’s record stands up above all other Bulldogs coaches and, as you point out, half of current AFL coaches. Regardless of his standing in the Bulldogs rankings, there is simply no proven or unproven coach available that I would want ahead of him. If the discussion is: who do I want to coach the bulldogs? The answer is Bevo. Of course I want better support, an improved game plan, a more rounded list and much more.

I think Bevo’s critics make the mistake of thinking his supporters give him a free pass. I certainly don’t. I think our list is solid, and I observe that he gets a better than par result from whatever list we front up with most years. That’s coaching.

And while I understand your point that we need to dispense with the line that Bevo is the most successful coach in our history because it’s not objective or constructive, I would simply observe that any commentary about any coach relative to a list is clearly subjective. Whether you agree or not, Bevo has one premiership and one losing GF with the lists at his disposal. The other coaches in the afl era have none. I am old enough to have watched them all and I think some of those lists wanted for nothing. But now we’ve departed objectivity and that’s what makes it all so interesting, isn’t it?
 
VitalDread said:
i 1000% agree but i still would have liked to wait a little bit longer, i just feel like Bevo would fall back into his bad selection comfort with a deal already done

I kinda want him to earn it this year (Regardless of his past), we should be a top 4 side and now that we have the sweeper defender and second ruck

There is no excuse for us this year
Click to expand...

I get it but I also think this is one of the weird things about being a well run football club for the first time in most of our lives. We are better off working on the basis that he is a good coach based on the evidence we have and removing the drama of an unsigned coach, especially when someone else sacks their coach and comes for him (because they will). Holding an extension to ransom for a few wins is not how a well run football club operates. We have all the insight we need to decide whether he is a good coach. That shouldn’t change at 7-1 or 3-3 next year.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

The Inbetweener said:
Pretty poor to not have the respect to return calls for people who have been there a long time though.

For me it’s just more mounting evidence that Grant is by no means qualified or experienced enough to be in the role he’s in.
Click to expand...

Good grief. Someone said someone didn’t return calls so a highly experienced football director is not qualified or experienced.
 
Woof said:
Excellent post. Even adjusting for the AFL era, I think Bevo’s record stands up above all other Bulldogs coaches and, as you point out, half of current AFL coaches. Regardless of his standing in the Bulldogs rankings, there is simply no proven or unproven coach available that I would want ahead of him. If the discussion is: who do I want to coach the bulldogs? The answer is Bevo. Of course I want better support, an improved game plan, a more rounded list and much more.

I think Bevo’s critics make the mistake of thinking his supporters give him a free pass. I certainly don’t. I think our list is solid, and I observe that he gets a better than par result from whatever list we front up with most years. That’s coaching.

And while I understand your point that we need to dispense with the line that Bevo is the most successful coach in our history because it’s not objective or constructive, I would simply observe that any commentary about any coach relative to a list is clearly subjective. Whether you agree or not, Bevo has one premiership and one losing GF with the lists at his disposal. The other coaches in the afl era have none. I am old enough to have watched them all and I think some of those lists wanted for nothing. But now we’ve departed objectivity and that’s what makes it all so interesting, isn’t it?
Click to expand...
Good comments.

This next ramble is a bit off the Bevo topic but your post brought to mind a conundrum that I've observed (or at least imagined). It is the difficulty in assessing how good players or lists or clubs or coaches are, independent of anything else.

For example you can have a very ordinary looking list when a club is in the middle or lower regions of the ladder. Then, without too many changes to the playing list they are suddenly top-4 and everybody is saying (with impressive hindsight) how powerful their list is and how such and such a player (who was regarded as a B-grader the year before) is now an elite player.

Maybe some recent examples would be Collingwood going from second last in 2021 to top in 2022. Or Melbourne going from wannabes in 2019-2020 to unbeatables in 2021. Or Richmond going from 13th in 2016 to three flags in the next four years. Or even our own side going from plodders to premiers at the start of the Bevo era.

It also works in reverse. Our premiership-winning side was expected to be camped in the top four for years, but what happened? 10th in 2017 and 13th in 2018 and suddenly nobody rated our players apart from 2 or 3 elite ones like Bontempelli and Macrae. What was it that burst the WB bubble?

You can point to the influence of a new coach (McRae and Bevo were new to their clubs) but how do you explain Hardwick and Goodwin who until their premiership breakthrough had not been getting results and were a bee's donger away from getting the flick? Perhaps it is just organic improvement from a young list? Perhaps there is some other catalyst that has changed the culture, mindset and team spirit, like getting some new assistant coaches, or the offloading of some toxic elements within the club. Or an off-season re-think of game strategy and team ethos that everybody bought into, as supposedly happened at Richmond (and at Geelong a decade before that).

My point is that these are so tightly intertwined that it becomes almost impossible to separate the various strands to get an objective measure of any one of them. A good coach can make an ordinary list look very good. Likewise a strong playing roster can make an ordinary coach look like a wizard. Pointing to AAs, Brownlows etc is not much help as we know that those awards are heavily influenced by the team performance (you don't get many votes in a losing team).

In the end, as you say, it all becomes very subjective. Some will point to certain evidence to say the club culture was decisive or that the coach is a world-beater while others will point to the same evidence and say the club culture or coach looks good because the playing list was so strong and it masked shortcomings elsewhere.

A sort of halo effect ... but which one is the cause and which is the downstream effect?
 
doggies ftw said:
That’s not exactly the level I’d be looking to hire from haha but it’s something I guess
Click to expand...

You’ve gotta to come from somewhere. You don’t just become an Assistant Football Operations Manager after graduating from school or Uni.

10 years GM of FO’s at one of the big metro leagues in the state. Moved in to development role at AFL level and is now promoted to a position where he can use his past experiences.

He’s probably got more relevant experience than the others in similar roles that get these types of jobs because they played and have been involved in football for a while. There’s lots of ex players that walk in to football department roles straight from their playing career with nothing but a degree it took 12 years to finish.

We’ve got some pretty clued on people at the top, if they’ve backed this guy in, we’d have to be pretty confident he can do a decent job.
 
Charlie Bucket said:
You’ve gotta to come from somewhere. You don’t just become an Assistant Football Operations Manager after graduating from school or Uni.

10 years GM of FO’s at one of the big metro leagues in the state. Moved in to development role at AFL level and is now promoted to a position where he can use his past experiences.

He’s probably got more relevant experience than the others in similar roles that get these types of jobs because they played and have been involved in football for a while. There’s lots of ex players that walk in to football department roles straight from their playing career with nothing but a degree it took 12 years to finish.

We’ve got some pretty clued on people at the top, if they’ve backed this guy in, we’d have to be pretty confident he can do a decent job.
Click to expand...
I understand you have to start somewhere but just think we need experience - his only role at AFL level isn’t even at AFL level, it’s in a professional environment but his focus was our NGA program and 11-15 year olds, on top of local footy operations roles. It seems a far cry from Maple on paper.

Would just be nice to add some genuine experience that have been around successful organisations- seems every appointment we make (Lade aside) lately is just getting theror start. Sphanger the main example with literally zero AFL level coaching experience.

We’re up in numbers with an extra assistant coach than last year in Lade which is a positive start but I hope there’s more changes to come
 
Remember when we brought in Matthew Scarlett? I want someone like that looking after our lines. Their experience provides gravitas and respect from our up and coming players. It’s much more likely someone with that proven experience will retain the players ears when things are going to hell in the 3rd quarter and they need to focus on or amend the game plan quickly.
 
Deadly Darcy said:
Remember when we brought in Matthew Scarlett? I want someone like that looking after our lines. Their experience provides gravitas and respect from our up and coming players. It’s much more likely someone with that proven experience will retain the players ears when things are going to hell in the 3rd quarter and they need to focus on or amend the game plan quickly.
Click to expand...
Lake has got into coaching. I'm amazed we don't have people like him in, even on a part time basis, helping teach the kids defensive craft. Granted he was a loose player but him and Scarlett were often compared.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
BLACAE said:
Lake has got into coaching. I'm amazed we don't have people like him in, even on a part time basis, helping teach the kids defensive craft. Granted he was a loose player but him and Scarlett were often compared.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...

Does Lake even like the Dogs? Or like Cooney has slowly reconnected?
 
BallaratBulldog said:
Does Lake even like the Dogs? Or like Cooney has slowly reconnected?
Click to expand...
He has a son in our F/S program, and I did see him in the Victory room with other past players at games this year.
 
dogwatch said:
Good comments.

This next ramble is a bit off the Bevo topic but your post brought to mind a conundrum that I've observed (or at least imagined). It is the difficulty in assessing how good players or lists or clubs or coaches are, independent of anything else.

For example you can have a very ordinary looking list when a club is in the middle or lower regions of the ladder. Then, without too many changes to the playing list they are suddenly top-4 and everybody is saying (with impressive hindsight) how powerful their list is and how such and such a player (who was regarded as a B-grader the year before) is now an elite player.

Maybe some recent examples would be Collingwood going from second last in 2021 to top in 2022. Or Melbourne going from wannabes in 2019-2020 to unbeatables in 2021. Or Richmond going from 13th in 2016 to three flags in the next four years. Or even our own side going from plodders to premiers at the start of the Bevo era.

It also works in reverse. Our premiership-winning side was expected to be camped in the top four for years, but what happened? 10th in 2017 and 13th in 2018 and suddenly nobody rated our players apart from 2 or 3 elite ones like Bontempelli and Macrae. What was it that burst the WB bubble?

You can point to the influence of a new coach (McRae and Bevo were new to their clubs) but how do you explain Hardwick and Goodwin who until their premiership breakthrough had not been getting results and were a bee's donger away from getting the flick? Perhaps it is just organic improvement from a young list? Perhaps there is some other catalyst that has changed the culture, mindset and team spirit, like getting some new assistant coaches, or the offloading of some toxic elements within the club. Or an off-season re-think of game strategy and team ethos that everybody bought into, as supposedly happened at Richmond (and at Geelong a decade before that).

My point is that these are so tightly intertwined that it becomes almost impossible to separate the various strands to get an objective measure of any one of them. A good coach can make an ordinary list look very good. Likewise a strong playing roster can make an ordinary coach look like a wizard. Pointing to AAs, Brownlows etc is not much help as we know that those awards are heavily influenced by the team performance (you don't get many votes in a losing team).

In the end, as you say, it all becomes very subjective. Some will point to certain evidence to say the club culture was decisive or that the coach is a world-beater while others will point to the same evidence and say the club culture or coach looks good because the playing list was so strong and it masked shortcomings elsewhere.

A sort of halo effect ... but which one is the cause and which is the downstream effect?
Click to expand...

Exactly right. As much as I enjoy the discussion on list, coaching, even administration… at the end of the day it comes down to results over a reasonable sample size. After 8 years I think we have more than enough evidence that Bevo is among the better professional coaches in the country, but I acknowledge many don’t.

I think his next few years will be telling in terms of his legacy and I fully expect (hope) them to be highly successful. We clearly need to make some considerable adjustments to our game plan and if he fails to do this then I’ll be first in line to say I’m wrong. I really think lacking a quality ruck brigade and key defenders has hamstrung him more than most appreciate. I also think he over corrected with our game plan to compensate. Really looking forward to seeing how he adjusts in the coming years given our list is dramatically different.
 
Woof said:
Exactly right. As much as I enjoy the discussion on list, coaching, even administration… at the end of the day it comes down to results over a reasonable sample size. After 8 years I think we have more than enough evidence that Bevo is among the better professional coaches in the country, but I acknowledge many don’t.

I think his next few years will be telling in terms of his legacy and I fully expect (hope) them to be highly successful. We clearly need to make some considerable adjustments to our game plan and if he fails to do this then I’ll be first in line to say I’m wrong. I really think lacking a quality ruck brigade and key defenders has hamstrung him more than most appreciate. I also think he over corrected with our game plan to compensate. Really looking forward to seeing how he adjusts in the coming years given our list is dramatically different.
Click to expand...
We actually have a better ruckman than the premiership team. But the Cats were coached much better and utilised who they had perfectly. No premiership team is going to have a perfect list, but it’s how they use and get the most out of who they do have. Our list is as good as any now. You used the word ‘legacy’ and that sums up well these next few years under Bevo, and how he will be remembered and how he leaves the club, in hopefully a strong position?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Woof said:
Exactly right. As much as I enjoy the discussion on list, coaching, even administration… at the end of the day it comes down to results over a reasonable sample size. After 8 years I think we have more than enough evidence that Bevo is among the better professional coaches in the country, but I acknowledge many don’t.

I think his next few years will be telling in terms of his legacy and I fully expect (hope) them to be highly successful. We clearly need to make some considerable adjustments to our game plan and if he fails to do this then I’ll be first in line to say I’m wrong. I really think lacking a quality ruck brigade and key defenders has hamstrung him more than most appreciate. I also think he over corrected with our game plan to compensate. Really looking forward to seeing how he adjusts in the coming years given our list is dramatically different.
Click to expand...
I broadly agree with your post, but the lack of additional rucks and key defenders has been an issue for a number of years. A number of years where Beveridge and Sam Power have had opportunities to strengthen those areas. I know we had a dip at Soldo (and others?), and allegedly this year at Barrass as a KPD, but there are other options who we overlooked in that period as well. Beveridge has been there now for 8 seasons - so any hamstringing is largely self-inflicted.
 
Woof said:
Exactly right. As much as I enjoy the discussion on list, coaching, even administration… at the end of the day it comes down to results over a reasonable sample size. After 8 years I think we have more than enough evidence that Bevo is among the better professional coaches in the country, but I acknowledge many don’t.

I think his next few years will be telling in terms of his legacy and I fully expect (hope) them to be highly successful. We clearly need to make some considerable adjustments to our game plan and if he fails to do this then I’ll be first in line to say I’m wrong. I really think lacking a quality ruck brigade and key defenders has hamstrung him more than most appreciate. I also think he over corrected with our game plan to compensate. Really looking forward to seeing how he adjusts in the coming years given our list is dramatically different.
Click to expand...
2 excellent posts. Hopefully Bevo proves me and others wrong and we win the next three flags.
 
BallaratBulldog said:
Does Lake even like the Dogs? Or like Cooney has slowly reconnected?
Click to expand...
Slowly reconnected
His son is in the Academy team

Dogs have done a great job reconnecting with a lot of past players since bevo took over
 

 
dergert said:
This shits me.

It's not about pleasing the "heavyweights". It's about being accountable to us regular members. We are the ones that make up the numbers.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it’s about seeking support for some ambitious plans from those with the greatest means and then moving forward on the basis of receiving that support?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
True Dog said:
We need Bigfooty representation at this Pow Wow... Who we sending??
Click to expand...
I'm happy to go but likely spend my entire time talking about the NGA
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Coach Football department changes going forward

Similar threads

L
Changes Required
2 3 4 5
Replies
101
Views
5K
Hobdog
Hobdog
Optimistic Dog
Opinion Our forward line
Replies
16
Views
959
Optimistic Dog
Optimistic Dog
D
Preview Changes Vs Golden Toast
23 24 25 26 27
Replies
659
Views
26K
Dogs Rule
Dogs Rule
A
How well is our forward line functioning?
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
stefoid
stefoid
Wocka
Game Day To Go, or Not to Go, There Is No Question.
Replies
1
Views
307
Werewolf
Werewolf
Wocka
  • Locked
Game Day To Go, or Not to Go, That Is the Question
20 21 22 23 24
Replies
591
Views
12K
_STREET_
_STREET_
Mojorisin
Preview Changes V North Round 23
10 11 12 13 14
Replies
337
Views
17K
Foxman98
Foxman98

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top