Coaching Staff Former Coach Ben "Truck" Rutten - Sacked for real this time - 21/8

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Was beginning to think it was like, pre contemplation stage stuff after the Swans. As in, before we even begin to build anything we’ve got to teach this group how to be coachable and take direction so we can then teach them a structure.

For me that game was just more evidence that he has the group by the balls, they’re listening, and what he’s implementing is holding up to the extent that we can holt swings of momentum within games and get things on our terms.

That’s something young sides take a long time to work through and it’s something very good, mature sides always do well, problem solved on the fly.

I’d struggle to be more impressed by him at this stage, you have to reconcile the results against him not inheriting anything that works, at all.
 
Zach Package said:
As in, before we even begin to build anything we’ve got to teach this group how to be coachable and take direction so we can then teach them a structure.

For me that game was just more evidence that he has the group by the balls, they’re listening, and what he’s implementing is holding up to the extent that we can holt swings of momentum within games and get things on our terms.

I’d struggle to be more impressed by him at this stage
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Zach Package said:
Was beginning to think it was like, pre contemplation stage stuff after the Swans. As in, before we even begin to build anything we’ve got to teach this group how to be coachable and take direction so we can then teach them a structure.

For me that game was just more evidence that he has the group by the balls, they’re listening, and what he’s implementing is holding up to the extent that we can holt swings of momentum within games and get things on our terms.

That’s something young sides take a long time to work through and it’s something very good, mature sides always do well, problem solved on the fly.

I’d struggle to be more impressed by him at this stage, you have to reconcile the results against him not inheriting anything that works, at all.
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I have to ask, what are you seeing at the moment?

I'm not seeing it. I don't know if it's Rutten but all I'm seeing is we have gone backwards in every area on last year.
We had some good growth across the list last year. Players who you did not expect to take a step, did so.
This year many of those gains have regressed, which is ok, there was some overp erfomance last year in a few.

But I've seen no growth this year.

I'd be keen to hear what you are seeing and how that is attributable to the coach?
 
Nuts4Bolts said:
He'll be sacked by 40 years of age (rightly or wrongly). Can he get another crack at a Senior job down the track? It was a massive gamble for him to take the job. Good on him but it was always going to be a long shot.
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There is no way he gets another gig if he loses his job this year

The issue he has now is this group really has no motivation to do anything this year. Its gonna be a pretty ordinary last 10 weeks id imagine... will be aome horrible loses

Not sure he will last. I hope we give him another 10-12 months though
 
I think if we go further backwards next year there'll be serious questions asked, but whether that is reasonable is up for debate since it's pretty tough to imagine our list clicking any time soon... Keep in mind, there's been people calling for him to be sacked since the first game of his head coaching career.
At the moment it's not fair or possible to judge him on wins and losses and there should only be considerations for his ousting if something is seriously wrong behind the scenes with the way he goes about it - which doesn't seem to be the case. That being said I can't say I really trust the club to make any wise decisions or act with any due process so he'll probably be sacked in the 3rd year of a rebuild after working with a shambles of a list.
 
Mercurial89 said:
I have to ask, what are you seeing at the moment?

I'm not seeing it. I don't know if it's Rutten but all I'm seeing is we have gone backwards in every area on last year.
We had some good growth across the list last year. Players who you did not expect to take a step, did so.
This year many of those gains have regressed, which is ok, there was some overp erfomance last year in a few.

But I've seen no growth this year.

I'd be keen to hear what you are seeing and how that is attributable to the coach?
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So I preface this by saying this is exactly what I said would happen this year, so in no way has he ‘underperformed’ or ‘underwhelmed’ in any aspect.

It was always going to be a slog because he’s trying to fundamentally change the way the side approaches the game from back half to front half, create some rigidity in defence and develop a method for stopping 16 goals a piece shoot outs and oppositions piling on 6,7,8 goals on us at a time with us having literally no recourse. He also doesn’t have a great deal of resources to throw around in case you haven’t noticed.

It’s coming in fits and starts, which is to be expected of what is essentially an expansion side’s list without the benefit of being kissed on the proverbial with a squillion draft picks.

This is not new information but turnover is probably the reason we have lost every game this year, we have and are showing that when we get what he wants out of the middle of the ground and some front half game and don’t burn the footy the defence holds up, is difficult to crack and can win the footy back in the air.

Like I’ve said several times here, he’s not doing gimmick shit to try and pinch wins and paper over cracks, he’s not throwing plus ones behind the footy to stem bleeding and he’s not pushing extra numbers to the ball. This is his process, he’s sticking to it and backing it in despite not seeing reward for effort. We all bemoan shortcuts here, he’s not taking them.

5 goal losses when we play large chunks the game on our terms are stuff all, that’s one skill error a quarter from us that probably results in a scoring opportunity should we retain the footy to an immediate turnover goal the other way.

My question to you is what were you expecting him to do that we are not doing? What types of anticipated improvement have you not seen?
 
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I think the issue is we havnt seen any improvement this year from round 1 to now really

I mean when was the last time we were less than 3 goals down at half time? Probably Anzac day... pretty damning

He gets another 12 months... no doubt. But if things havnt changed then hes gone whether its the right call or not.

Hes probably not going to get as easy as a 10 wk run as he got end 2021 and not a 10 wk patch of form from Stringer or someone else of similar magnitude

Be in more contest at half time next year would be my asking over the first 8-10 weeks

One issue im starting to see is that we cant win contest in front of the footy or halve them for long enough. Not having Stringer, HJ, Snelling, Tippa, Langford for most of the year. Dev falling off a cliff and Fantasia, Mosquito moving on hasnt really left much for us and its hurting. Think our midfield and defense is being made to look far worse than it is.

Wonder what stoppage count and repeat stoppage is like inside our f50. Was one of the biggest criteria for the hawks success in there opinion
 
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Zach Package said:
Was beginning to think it was like, pre contemplation stage stuff after the Swans. As in, before we even begin to build anything we’ve got to teach this group how to be coachable and take direction so we can then teach them a structure.

For me that game was just more evidence that he has the group by the balls, they’re listening, and what he’s implementing is holding up to the extent that we can holt swings of momentum within games and get things on our terms.

That’s something young sides take a long time to work through and it’s something very good, mature sides always do well, problem solved on the fly.

I’d struggle to be more impressed by him at this stage, you have to reconcile the results against him not inheriting anything that works, at all.
Click to expand...
I am sorry I cannot disagree more
if they are listening to Ben then he needs to be frog marched out of the club today
we have no systems in place- we win the footy in the corridor and go to the wings/ boundary line
our two way running is mediocre at best
our Forward line has no discernible structures which is evidenced by our centre clearance domination in the first half which wasn’t able to be translated into goals.
He picked an unbalanced side which couldn’t defend from the forward half.
michael Voss showed what organised structures and a clear game plan can do.
rutten was big Fella on the bench with a half smile with no concept of what to do.
 
Keystone agony said:
There is no way he gets another gig if he loses his job this year

The issue he has now is this group really has no motivation to do anything this year. Its gonna be a pretty ordinary last 10 weeks id imagine... will be aome horrible loses

Not sure he will last. I hope we give him another 10-12 months though
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I know Voss and Ratten got a second crack at it, but you'd think it will be a few years away if Rutten was to.

I to hope they give him time, but I also hope Rutten uses this "review" and does a massive table thump and demands the things he thinks he needs. What's he got to lose by putting the heat back on the club/board? At the very least he's got something to whack us with on his way out if he does get the chop - ' I asked for X and they would only give me Y'.
Or preferably they listen to him and help him out.
 
Zach Package said:
So I preface this by saying this is exactly what I said would happen this year, so in no way has he ‘underperformed’ or ‘underwhelmed’ in any aspect.

It was always going to be a slog because he’s trying to fundamentally change the way the side approaches the game from back half to front half, create some rigidity in defence and develop a method for stopping 16 goals a piece shoot outs and oppositions piling on 6,7,8 goals on us at a time with us having literally no recourse. He also doesn’t have a great deal of resources to throw around in case you haven’t noticed.

It’s coming in fits and starts, which is to be expected of what is essentially an expansion side’s list without the benefit of being kissed on the proverbial with a squillion draft picks.

This is not new information but turnover is probably the reason we have lost every game this year, we have and are showing that when we get what he wants out of the middle of the ground and some front half game and don’t burn the footy the defence holds up, is difficult to crack and can win the footy back in the air.

Like I’ve said several times here, he’s not doing gimmick shit to try and pinch wins and paper over cracks, he’s not throwing plus ones behind the footy to stem bleeding and he’s not pushing extra numbers to the ball. This is his process, he’s sticking to it and backing it in despite not seeing reward for effort. We all bemoan shortcuts here, he’s not taking them.

5 goal losses when we play large chunks the game on our terms are stuff all, that’s one skill error a quarter from us that probably results in a scoring opportunity should we retain the footy to an immediate turnover goal the other way.

My question to you is what were you expecting him to do that we are not doing? What types of anticipated improvement have you not seen?
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Thanks for expanding,
My concern is probably the step back in pressure (fitness issues I don't pin that on him), and like you I didn't expect greatness this year, I expected a step back, can't lose the forward line pieces we did and expect the scoring. But I thought I'd see more from a defending in transition point of view.
I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just not seeing it, it might be smaller growth areas and I'm just not recognising them.

Maybe it's the development side that is bothering me, lack of skill development with the turnovers and some players going backwards.
These aren't necessarily on him, however unfortuantely he may be the one that cops it in the neck if we continue this patch to say mid next year.
 

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There's just no improvement here, no 'gameplan', for want of a better term. When we are in games, it always seems to be effort based - players winning contests etc, not because our 'system' is working.
Re-watched the Haw game recently and it appeared to me that Haw just stopped dead. We were able to do what we wanted, so ran over the top of them. Don't think there was anything system/gameplan based that changed and got us back in it.
How long does Rutten have? I know most think that he needs the right players for his way of playing, but how long does that take? You can't just empty and replenish a list in two years. Five years? Will the players that we have now and we want to be a part of the club long term, stick around for that long if we have a couple more seasons like this? (Most seem to be signing for two years).
At the moment, I sit somewhere between David King and those that think Rutten is the man.
 
foj1 said:
I am sorry I cannot disagree more
if they are listening to Ben then he needs to be frog marched out of the club today
we have no systems in place- we win the footy in the corridor and go to the wings/ boundary line
our two way running is mediocre at best
our Forward line has no discernible structures which is evidenced by our centre clearance domination in the first half which wasn’t able to be translated into goals.
He picked an unbalanced side which couldn’t defend from the forward half.
michael Voss showed what organised structures and a clear game plan can do.
rutten was big Fella on the bench with a half smile with no concept of what to do.
Click to expand...

I reckon it's telling that Essendon performed well in all the 'effort' metrics like tackles, clearances and contested possessions last night...can't fault the players effort. They cracked in and there were moments of individual brilliance like Draper and Jones goals.

But clearly have issues defending transition and transitioning the ball yourselves...a lot of that is game plan based...commentators kept noting the ball movement was very stagnant. I don't think the players know what to do. That's on the coach.

Also, the hierarchy clearly want to be like Richmond, bring Rutten and Caracella in, drafting players from their VFL team etc. But it looks bad for Rutten that Macrae has Collingwood playing a Richmond brand straight away...they have fast ball movement and apply a heap of defensive pressure. Yes their senior players are better than what Rutten has to work with, but the contrast in game styles is stark.
 
foj1 said:
I am sorry I cannot disagree more
if they are listening to Ben then he needs to be frog marched out of the club today
we have no systems in place- we win the footy in the corridor and go to the wings/ boundary line
our two way running is mediocre at best
our Forward line has no discernible structures which is evidenced by our centre clearance domination in the first half which wasn’t able to be translated into goals.
He picked an unbalanced side which couldn’t defend from the forward half.
michael Voss showed what organised structures and a clear game plan can do.
rutten was big Fella on the bench with a half smile with no concept of what to do.
Click to expand...

Like I said and have said, early parts of this year were diabolical, it looked like they were at pre kindergarten levels and it literally needed to be stripped back to ‘this is what an instruction looks like’ and ‘this is how you follow it’ because there simply hasn’t been any kind of foundation built.

Not only is that an indicator of how much rope he needs, but it also reflects really poorly on Worsfold as well as an absolutely terrible decision as a developmental teaching coach.

Since the swans game the evidence is there to suggest they’re actually starting to play some decent footy in spurts and some knots are beginning to be untangled with our method of exiting the contest and protecting the clean exit, so signs there definitely.

The two big concerns for me at the moment are ball retention going inside 50, seems the easiest way to score against us is to give us the footy 80 metres out, wait for an absolutely hideous turnover and then walk the footy the other way.

In addition to that there is pretty clear instruction to keep the footy ‘live’ at all costs by knocking, flicking or paddling on and not just taking the stoppage and going again. For a side that can at times be absolutely dominant at the stoppage we seemingly hate them for some reason.
 
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F_therest said:
I reckon it's telling that Essendon performed well in all the 'effort' metrics like tackles, clearances and contested possessions last night...can't fault the players effort. They cracked in and there were moments of individual brilliance like Draper and Jones goals.

But clearly have issues defending transition and transitioning the ball yourselves...a lot of that is game plan based...commentators kept noting the ball movement was very stagnant. I don't think the players know what to do. That's on the coach.

Also, the hierarchy clearly want to be like Richmond, bring Rutten and Caracella in, drafting players from their VFL team etc. But it looks bad for Rutten that Macrae has Collingwood playing a Richmond brand straight away...they have fast ball movement and apply a heap of defensive pressure. Yes their senior players are better than what Rutten has to work with, but the contrast in game styles is stark.
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Something we’ve been discussing for like a decade.

Every coach that starts teaching them to defend ends up losing a bunch of games and then switches back to front running footy to win a few of the easier ones.

Sometimes they start with the attacking footy like Worsfold did and then try to bring in the pressure and team defence system, bring in someone who knows how to do it and put it into practice elsewhere, and then a bunch of players leave because they don’t want to do the hard yards, run both ways.

And then it’s rinse and repeat. Front running footy seems to get us into finals regularly enough and that wins a reprieve but it doesn’t stack up when you get there.

Now the powers that be have put the team defence guy as the head coach and he’s refusing to save face with front running bullshit. He’s still trying to push shit up hill and teach them things that half of them don’t do consistently.

But it’s still not sticking that well and at some point the impatience of the coteries and the board may well decide to look elsewhere. At the moment they at least seem determined to see it through (the one trait of the current administration that I actually appreciate).

A team like Collingwood already has a defensive mindset so McRae hasn’t had to teach them an entire philosophy they’ve never heard of before.
 
YEMOC NAYR said:
I personally think we are in a situation where losing by 80-100 would actually be more beneficial to the club than losing by 4-5 goals every week.
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How
 
YEMOC NAYR said:
Would inspire real change instead of being complacent and thinking this is just an off year. Don't specifically mean the coach either, just threw a comment out there after reading a page or two of posts
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More likely to result in knee jerk sacking and arse covering than anything productive imo, short of a board spill.
 
Lore said:
More likely to result in knee jerk sacking and arse covering than anything productive imo, short of a board spill.
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We've a culture of promoting mediocrity. Wholesale changes to people outside of the coach (who i think has made some good moves and turned a few players careers around) could be warranted.

We are 2-10, sitting bottom 3 and our focus this offseason according to Josh Mahony is to hit the FA market. You don't hit the FA market at this point of a rebuild imo.. just reaks of a club who think they are better than they are
 
YEMOC NAYR said:
We've a culture of promoting mediocrity. Wholesale changes to people outside of the coach (who i think has made some good moves and turned a few players careers around) could be warranted.

We are 2-10, sitting bottom 3 and our focus this offseason according to Josh Mahony is to hit the FA market. You don't hit the FA market at this point of a rebuild imo.. just reaks of a club who think they are better than they are
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Free agency isn’t terrible as long as it’s like Jake Kelly and not a white elephant
 
Lore said:
More likely to result in knee jerk sacking and arse covering than anything productive imo, short of a board spill.
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Knee jerk sacking like a list manager of 20 years and a ceo who has employed 5 footy managers?
a knee jerk reaction like doing an external review that is completely independent?
Time for reality to bite
 

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Coaching Staff Former Coach Ben "Truck" Rutten - Sacked for real this time - 21/8

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