Rumour Future of the club (Bevo, board, assistant coaches, football department)

[yebach]

When you name a player that wasn't in the preliminary final team, as evidence, it appears that you even you don't have a lot of faith in your own argument.

As you are probably now aware, as I expect you looked it up, our 2008 preliminary final team was full of top-class talent and had only 2 players that ended up with less than 150 career games.

If we picked a best team out of the 2008 and 2024 team players, there would certainly be more 2024 players missing out.

My argument is not that Bevo, is perfect, nor that he doesn't make mistakes. He makes plenty that infuriate me.

My argument is that simply that the AFL is not a level playing field and that coaching the Bulldogs to the promised land is a harder job than many people seem to appreciate.

A lot of very good coaches, with very talented players, and teams, have tried and failed.

So, when we have someone who has shown he can actually get us there and continues to keep us competitive and giving us chances of getting there again, then we should be in absolutely no hurry to see them depart.

I wanted him gone when we lost/ were completely out coached by GWS/ Leon Cameron in 2019.

I think I've been pretty patient.

Don't believe? me watch it again and tell me what moves Bevo made to stop their game/tactics?

Then fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and apart from taking the games best player out of the action for the better part of the game, what moves did he make to nullify Sicily who was running around like it was an under 12's game? Or arrest their midfield domination after quarter time?

 

[ossie_21]

Can anyone please assist me in reminding me of an incident where former port players organised flights, accom and tickets to Perth for the GF prior to the 2021 Prelim where the dogs had done laps of Australia and Port were slightly cocky and believed they were already in the Granny?

Just asking here because you are rattled by Ginnivan being rattled by Hinkley, who rattled Sicily, who rattled the entire Hawks fan base because they should only be allowed to give and never take?

 

[Dale4captain]

Matty Boyd back at the pies.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Thanks. Thought so but just can’t find anything anywhere.
Thanks for confirming

I remember hearing that Kane had organised the whole thing, selling GF weekend packages to Port supporters, on the grounds that Power only needed to turn up to win.

Not much came to light about it after the Dogs smashed them...

I wonder now if that's the reason Cornes keeps trying to hammer Bevo

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I wanted him gone when we lost/ were completely out coached by GWS/ Leon Cameron in 2019.

I think I've been pretty patient.

Don't believe? me watch it again and tell me what moves Bevo made to stop their game/tactics?

Then fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and apart from taking the games best player out of the action for the better part of the game, what moves did he make to nullify Sicily who was running around like it was an under 12's game? Or arrest their midfield domination after quarter time?

I think isolating out the fact that there have been individual times when other coaches (who are entitled to also be good coaches and try to win games and sometimes better coaches than Bevo) have outcoached Bevo is strange, as given that nobody is claimed that Bevo is an infallible genius and clearly the best coach in the league, and that would naturally inevitably lead to occasions where he would be outcoached. Measuring if it happens more often than it should is a different matter.

The other (and what i believe) to be the fair measurement is that Bevo has consistently proven to be a winning coach over an extended period of time. This is also proven by the fact that he's won more finals (7) as a coach than he's lost (6). Furthermore, close games can go either way, and we've only won one close final (semi vs. Brisbane), while being unfortunate to lose three close finals (2015, 2020 and 2022 elimination finals).

As I've pointed out many times, if Bevo's team proves that he's lost more games than he's won while conceding more points that we score over a big enough sample size (ie more than just a season's worth of games on a rolling basis), I more than happy to stop calling Bevo a good coach and consider that we may need a different one.

In any case, after Bevo swallowed some humble pie, made tough tactical and selection changes, and we changed the support staff around him, he coached better football in 2024 and especially after R8 of this year.

Is Bevo the perfect coach? No. Should we expect that an alternate coach should have done a better job? I can't agree with people that suggest that.

I also disagree with the expectation that we should always have a winning record or be challenging for flags (we are a small team with fewer fixture and scheduling advantages that other teams have), or that we have a "talented list", or even if we do, that can be completely isolated out from the influence of Bevo's coaching (as understanding and presenting such talent on the field is ultimately the job of a senior coach). In other words, I think the measuring stick to Bevo is a little unfair.

As others have posted on this thread, we should strive, we should battle for success, but treating it as an expectation is not only unrealistic, but unhelpful, and has led to the downfall of many traditionally "big" Melbourne clubs (e.g. Essendon). Accepting and being respectful of the fact that it's an equalised league with 17 other teams with talented coaches and players also trying to win, and operating in that framework, and judging and making decisions on that framework, I believe leads to far better decision-making for increasing the chance of future success rather than treating a 14-win season (for instance) as the same as a 10-win or whatever season.

 

[geoffjennings79]

When you name a player that wasn't in the preliminary final team, as evidence, it appears that even you don't have a lot of faith in your own argument.

As you are probably now aware, as I expect you looked it up, our 2008 preliminary final team was full of top-class talent and had only 2 players that ended up with less than 150 career games.

If we picked a best team out of the 2008 and 2024 team players, there would certainly be more 2024 players missing out.

My argument is not that Bevo is perfect, nor that he doesn't make mistakes. He makes plenty that infuriate me.

My argument is simply that the AFL is not a level playing field and that coaching the Bulldogs to the promised land is a harder job than many people seem to appreciate.

A lot of very good coaches, with very talented players, and teams, have tried and failed.

So, when we have someone who has shown he can actually get us there and continues to keep us competitive and giving us chances of getting there again, then we should be in absolutely no hurry to see them depart.

Our 2008 finals team had 3(!) genuine talls - Hudson, Lake, Minson. 2 ruckmen and 1 KPD. Morris played taller, but then you had Tiller, Welsh and Hargrave at either end who were not genuine KPP size, but often asked to be.

Hawks in the qual and Cats in the prelim had quality talls, and our talented, but undersized, forward line were found out. Unsurprisingly they both made the GF. And we didn't.

We beat Swans in the semi as Richards, Barry and Bolton struggled with our mobile mids. And apart from Hall, their other KPFs Roberts-Thompson and their resting rucks provided less challenge than Franklin/Roughead or Mooney/Ottens/Lonergan.

Comparing the sides, Callan Hill and Tiller are not getting a game in the 2024 team. And Welsh, while handy in h&a, struggled so much in finals for us Eade moved him to half back in one. And he wouldn't get a game ahead of Naughton or JUH anyway.

Minson and Hudson would both struggle to get a game under Bevo - although I'd love one of them paired with Darcy instead of English.

The rest of 2008 had superbly talented hb, hf and mids. But none of them are better than Bont. Tough call on pure mids between Cooney, Griffen, Boyd and Cross vs Bont, Treloar, Liber and Richards.

As much as people have selective memories about Higgins, he was a skilled hf early in his career, who would match Weightman. Then under McCartney, became disillusioned and started pointing all over the place.

Tough job picking a composite side. No Duryea equivalent (we used to get burned by small forwards at times under Eade), but Gilbee, Harbrow and then-hb Bob Murphy hard to leave out.

The 2008 team lacked forward structure in height, but Eade coached them brilliantly to spread and isolated their defenders. Johnson, Hahn, Aker, Gia, Higgins and Welsh all suited that style. But finals games were tighter, space was closed down and there was no big forward to take a mark, split a pack or make Scarlett, Taylor and Croad accountable.

Maybe our new forward coach should be Rocket Eade?! Would be worth it to here him "Minson-rant" about Tim English!

 

[Sizzlesilk]

I remember hearing that Kane had organised the whole thing, selling GF weekend packages to Port supporters, on the grounds that Power only needed to turn up to win.

Not much came to light about it after the Dogs smashed them...

I wonder now if that's the reason Cornes keeps trying to hammer Bevo

Thank you. I remember reading about it and now in hindsight find it all quite ironic…

 

[Ash1337]

Edge is a must keep. GWS blowing huge leads points to a gap in their fitness management which was not present last season.

I think you thinking of Bell not Edge.

 

[Ash1337]

Maybe Bobby comes back to the kennel as the new midfield coach or if Edge gets promoted as the new VFL coach. Did a decent job as Freos midfield coach.

 

[lachy]

I think isolating out the fact that there have been individual times when other coaches (who are entitled to also be good coaches and try to win games and sometimes better coaches than Bevo) have outcoached Bevo is strange, as given that nobody is claimed that Bevo is an infallible genius and clearly the best coach in the league, and that would naturally inevitably lead to occasions where he would be outcoached. Measuring if it happens more often than it should is a different matter.

The other (and what i believe) to be the fair measurement is that Bevo has consistently proven to be a winning coach over an extended period of time. This is also proven by the fact that he's won more finals (7) as a coach than he's lost (6). Furthermore, close games can go either way, and we've only won one close final (semi vs. Brisbane), while being unfortunate to lose three close finals (2015, 2020 and 2022 elimination finals).

As I've pointed out many times, if Bevo's team proves that he's lost more games than he's won while conceding more points that we score over a big enough sample size (ie more than just a season's worth of games on a rolling basis), I more than happy to stop calling Bevo a good coach and consider that we may need a different one.

In any case, after Bevo swallowed some humble pie, made tough tactical and selection changes, and we changed the support staff around him, he coached better football in 2024 and especially after R8 of this year.

Is Bevo the perfect coach? No. Should we expect that an alternate coach should have done a better job? I can't agree with people that suggest that.

I also disagree with the expectation that we should always have a winning record or be challenging for flags (we are a small team with fewer fixture and scheduling advantages that other teams have), or that we have a "talented list", or even if we do, that can be completely isolated out from the influence of Bevo's coaching (as understanding and presenting such talent on the field is ultimately the job of a senior coach). In other words, I think the measuring stick to Bevo is a little unfair.

As others have posted on this thread, we should strive, we should battle for success, but treating it as an expectation is not only unrealistic, but unhelpful, and has led to the downfall of many traditionally "big" Melbourne clubs (e.g. Essendon). Accepting and being respectful of the fact that it's an equalised league with 17 other teams with talented coaches and players also trying to win, and operating in that framework, and judging and making decisions on that framework, I believe leads to far better decision-making for increasing the chance of future success rather than treating a 14-win season (for instance) as the same as a 10-win or whatever season.

I am a supporter in general of Bev and have many times said he needed more support.

Though talented this list has too many still in the development phase of their careers, shown on the ground a week and a bit ago.

However, there is a simple benchmark to look at the long term success of a coach that really has only been around 20 odd years.

If your teams are consistently making preliminary finals over time you are a very good coach. It means you are consistently winning finals to get there given your team the opportunity to play off for the ultimate success.

The success of any team any year is making the preliminary final weekend. The ultimate success obviously is winning it.

Bev has achieved this twice and though both times came from finishing outside the top 4, in both of those seasons we were in the battle for top 4 till deep in the season.

The best that could be said of this season, from round 8 we genuinely improved and finished 1 game outside the top 4. We were poor in the final but really it would be madness to get rid of Bev after this year.

Provide the extra coaching and development support and unless there is a major injury development Bev should only be resigned around the mid year bye if we are pushing top 4 and if not at the end of the year if we make preliminary final weekend.

Any other reasoning or logic is nothing but making excuses.

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Whoyagot]

I think you thinking of Bell not Edge.

Correct, my bad!

 

[Doggies7]

Maybe Bobby comes back to the kennel as the new midfield coach or if Edge gets promoted as the new VFL coach. Did a decent job as Freos midfield coach.

Joel Corey is the Dockers midfield coach. Bob's official title was "Skills Specialist and Head of Leadership", had more of a development role and off-field more so than a line coach. Wasn't in the coaches box either as far as I know.

 

[Wocka]

That's quite a take given Port was playing away to Freo after our game. Freo had to win to play finals.

True, but with Geelong smashing the Eagles, if Port lost by approx 5 goals they would have dropped to 3rd and lost a home final. All of a sudden, Port had a bit to play for as well.
The 'what ifs' got a lot more complicated for GWS. Losing was an easy option.

They just needed a Port loss. The % swing had nothing to do with it.

Also, GWS beat Port by 4 goals at Adelaide in a final last year.

What happened last year is irrelevant, unless it suits your 'logic'

Play a well documented finals choker (Hawthorn disagree), or at the home ground of clearly the best team all year who had won both meetings this year by around 5 goals?!

Sleeping in your own bed and driving to the ground or flying the night before and sleeping in a hotel.
One is not like the other.

Using your 'logic' you should have told us all the Dogs were no chance against the Hawks because we choked in our last two finals and the Hawks had beaten us the last two times we've played (once this year and once last year).

I can't believe I wasted $101 on a ticket when logically we didn't have a chance.

Sorry, but that's one of the most illogical posts I've seen since one a few days ago was (thankfully) deleted by its author.

How bout now?

 

[Proffessor]

Our 2008 finals team had 3(!) genuine talls - Hudson, Lake, Minson. 2 ruckmen and 1 KPD. Morris played taller, but then you had Tiller, Welsh and Hargrave at either end who were not genuine KPP size, but often asked to be.

Hawks in the qual and Cats in the prelim had quality talls, and our talented, but undersized, forward line were found out. Unsurprisingly they both made the GF. And we didn't.

We beat Swans in the semi as Richards, Barry and Bolton struggled with our mobile mids. And apart from Hall, their other KPFs Roberts-Thompson and their resting rucks provided less challenge than Franklin/Roughead or Mooney/Ottens/Lonergan.

Comparing the sides, Callan Hill and Tiller are not getting a game in the 2024 team. And Welsh, while handy in h&a, struggled so much in finals for us Eade moved him to half back in one. And he wouldn't get a game ahead of Naughton or JUH anyway.

Minson and Hudson would both struggle to get a game under Bevo - although I'd love one of them paired with Darcy instead of English.

The rest of 2008 had superbly talented hb, hf and mids. But none of them are better than Bont. Tough call on pure mids between Cooney, Griffen, Boyd and Cross vs Bont, Treloar, Liber and Richards.

As much as people have selective memories about Higgins, he was a skilled hf early in his career, who would match Weightman. Then under McCartney, became disillusioned and started pointing all over the place.

Tough job picking a composite side. No Duryea equivalent (we used to get burned by small forwards at times under Eade), but Gilbee, Harbrow and then-hb Bob Murphy hard to leave out.

The 2008 team lacked forward structure in height, but Eade coached them brilliantly to spread and isolated their defenders. Johnson, Hahn, Aker, Gia, Higgins and Welsh all suited that style. But finals games were tighter, space was closed down and there was no big forward to take a mark, split a pack or make Scarlett, Taylor and Croad accountable.

Maybe our new forward coach should be Rocket Eade?! Would be worth it to here him "Minson-rant" about Tim English!

Josh Hill would stroll into the 2024 team.

The only guy from 2008 who wouldn't warrant much consideration in a combined team selection meeting would be Tim Callan, but even he could mount a case for selection ahead of a few current members of the 2024 team considering he managed 23 possessions in a prelim.

 

[dergert]

Have a look at Collingwood's assistants compared to ours lol

 

[grassman75]

I wanted him gone when we lost/ were completely out coached by GWS/ Leon Cameron in 2019.

I think I've been pretty patient.

Don't believe? me watch it again and tell me what moves Bevo made to stop their game/tactics?

Then fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and apart from taking the games best player out of the action for the better part of the game, what moves did he make to nullify Sicily who was running around like it was an under 12's game? Or arrest their midfield domination after quarter time?

While I agree with the not manning up Sicily….surely you can see the whole team had a stinker….i don’t think there was more than 20% of the team switched on, and that includes the Bont.

We got sucked in to the play the experienced guys over the kids who helped us get there. Back to dinky Daniel kicks, slow ball movement and lack of speed to cover the switch. Those with speed don’t have the skill required to do the full job, so we get errors. We really aren’t far off. 1 game outside the top 4 this year, second best %, 1st and 2nd for offence and defence….we got a lot right bar picking up that one elusive win during the year. There was probably 4 games we should have won but didn’t.

I still think with the way this team goes all touchy feely, I wouldn’t be surprised if the death of John Schultz took the wind out of our sails - he was a big figure around the club

It’s not an excuse, but I can see it having an effect

 

[Dog 36]

Have a look at Collingwood's assistants compared to ours lol

Not just Collingwood’s there are so many other clubs also

Wonder if the soft cap is a myth

 

[Planet Dogs]

The only silver lining to our embarrassing elimination final is that it should elicit a response to demand more from everyone in the team and footy department. They need to be more demanding of each other. More hard arsed. More accountable.

We must get a new Footy Director to help drive this change in culture.

 

[grassman75]

Not just Collingwood’s there are so many other clubs also

Wonder if the soft cap is a myth

I’m sure coaches also want to go to big clubs, just like players….being a coach at the Pies looks good on your resume as against say Essendon….ha…isn’t it good saying that

 

[geoffjennings79]

Josh Hill would stroll into the 2024 team.

The only guy from 2008 who wouldn't warrant much consideration in a combined team selection meeting would be Tim Callan, but even he could mount a case for selection ahead of a few current members of the 2024 team considering he managed 23 possessions in a prelim.

Thanks for the considered reply....

Hill was talented, but never worked hard defensively, and inconsistent. Go back and look at this board's opinions of his efforts. Or the Eagles board after he moved.

Callan the "only one"! FMD. 23 possessions in a prelim - maybe delve deeper than stats. There's a reason he only played 3 games in 2009, and his last career game in 2010.

Tiller and Welsh are getting nowhere near the 2024 team. In 6 finals for us as the nominal full forward, Welsh kicked 2 goals in the 08 semi, and 1 goal in the 09 qual. That's it - 3 goals in 6 finals. He was great in h&a when the entire forward line was free wheeling and firing, but like the rest of Eade's undersized forward lines, finals pressure showed up its limitations. And Welsh was moved to half back in at least one of those prelims, might have even been both, as he barely touched the ball in 08, and got a few late cheap possessions in 09.

 

[Freshwater]

job picking a composite side. No Duryea equivalent (we used to get burned by small forwards at times under Eade),

Was not Dale Morris that player? Playing on all sorts of forwards from small fast to big gorillas?

 

[geoffjennings79]

Was not Dale Morris that player? Playing on all sorts of forwards from small fast to big gorillas?

Yep, in h&a. But in 08 and 09 qual finals he had to play as the second tall defender (took Roughead in 08 final) as Hargrave and Tiller were not strong enough or tall enough. Think he had Koschitzke in the 09 prelim too?

 

[F6Typhoon]

Have a look at Collingwood's assistants compared to ours lol

Still maintain that Isaac Smith should be sounded out for an assistant role with us…

 

[4Seasons]

Can anyone please assist me in reminding me of an incident where former port players organised flights, accom and tickets to Perth for the GF prior to the 2021 Prelim where the dogs had done laps of Australia and Port were slightly cocky and believed they were already in the Granny?

Port Adelaide seem to have upset you.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

Port Adelaide seem to have upset you.

Just thought there are a few examples of similar “motivation” actions and i was chatting to someone and couldnt remember the exact details.
I see you disagreed with the version of events. Did that not happen in your view?