Gary Lyon on our midfield goalkicking

[Persevering Saint]

this from Ross's namesake in the Hun.

Saints stuck in the middle


Garry Lyon

Tuesday, May 06, 2008 at 10:40am



ROSS Lyon is going to earn his money in the next month or so.
With Nick Riewoldt sidelined, and Fraser Gehrig struggling to hit the scoreboard for the Casey Scorpions, let alone St Kilda, he needs to find some goals from somewhere - and in a hurry.
Stephen Milne frustrates at times but he has been underrated over the years.
He is a pure goalkicker who goes into a frenzy every time the ball enters his team’s attacking 50m. A magnificent crumber who reads the flight of the ball beautifully, and always puts himself in a dangerous position.
To kick seven goals and single-handedly get his team across the line against Richmond on Saturday was one of the better efforts of the year.
But it will be too much to expect a man standing 178cm to hold things together until Riewoldt’s return.
Milne has kicked 18 goals for the year from 31 shots, eight more than any other Saint.
Opposition clubs will now make him their primary focus.
Justin Koschitzke has blossomed before in the absence of Riewoldt and may have to again, but the glaring shortfall of goals from the midfield is the area of most concern.
Crisis, if that’s what the captain’s absence amounts to, can also create opportunity.
If the scoring load can be more evenly distributed in the coming weeks, not only will St Kilda benefit in the short term, but it will be far better placed to make an assault on finals action in the last 6-8 weeks of the season.
Quite simply, their quality onballers have shown little inclination during their careers to push forward and kick goals.
It’s an unusual situation. The last thing you need to encourage young footballers to do is to have a shot at goal. Everyone wants to be the goalkicker. So what is it with this group of Saints?
Nick Dal Santo and Lenny Hayes have kicked one goal each for the year. Rob Harvey has kicked two, both on Saturday night, Leigh Montagna has three and Luke Ball four. That’s 11 goals in total.
Bulldog Adam Cooney has all of them covered, with 11 goals this season.
While the Dogs’ midfielders spend more time forward than the Saints’, the numbers are still compelling. Ryan Griffen has kicked seven goals and Mitch Hahn 11.
Jason Akermanis can stroll into the middle when required but is more damaging forward, with 14 for the year; so too Daniel Giansiracusa, who has nine.
Even Daniel Cross, who kicked one goal for the ‘07 season, has four in the first seven games.
It is a fine line when it comes to players such as Hayes and Ball, in particular.
They are fearless, inside ball-hunters, much more likely to be found on the bottom of the pack than receiving it wide.
They are two of the best tacklers in the AFL, and all of those qualities have won them great respect and recognition.
But for all their efforts and possessions, Hayes kicked only four goals from 19 matches last year and Ball five from 18.
It’s time for a change of mindset for this group.
No one would question the selflessness of Hayes and Ball.
But they have to take more responsibility for their goal output, and if that means becoming more selfish, then that’s what they have to do.
Dal Santo and Montagna appear to have more attacking flair. They must be encouraged to take the game on forward of the centre, as Cooney and Griffen do for the Dogs.
Nine goals from Dal Santo last year and just one this season is not acceptable for a player of his class, poise, balance and skill. Similarly, Montagna’s 10 last season and just three this year.
Getting the ball to your most creative and talented players makes sense, but it is a two-way deal. The transaction must then be completed.
Cooney is delivering for the Dogs. He runs with the confidence of knowing that his teammates are skilled enough to get the ball to him, and he has trust that, if the ball is turned over, they are also prepared to cover for him.
When a player moves with that sort of mindset, he becomes an overwhelming attacking threat.
The Saints midfield does not have the same attitude. Historically, they haven’t needed it because of the riches they have enjoyed in their forward line.
As a result, the trust needed to attack from the middle is a little shaky.Premiership teams are always the benchmark.
Gary Ablett kicked 30 goals last year, Cameron Ling 28 and Jimmy Bartel 18. In West Coasts Premiership year Andrew Embley kicked 31, Chris Judd 29 and Ben Cousins 20.
A goal a game has to be the minimum requirement, but can this talented bunch.
reinvent themselves and become even more rounded footballers by adding “goalkicker” to their resumes?
Their team’s success may depend on it.

 

[Atomboy]

change the game style from defensive to attacking and they probably will kick more goals

 

[seanoff]

change the game style from defensive to attacking and they probably will kick more goals

They were barely better under Thomas.

they avg about .5 goals a game each over the last 4 yrs. So the 4 prime mids get 2 goals a game.


personal opinion follows.

Ball and Hayes get a free pass here, they are in and under mids and get an enormous amount of hard ball and tackles.

However Montagna and Dal Santo need to up it significantly. The criticism of Dal getting cheap and easy possies is starting to look very valid.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Just thinking, what about Charlie Gardiner - he's been playing as arunning Half-forward, but hasn't been kicking many goals either. Isn't that part of his job? We all seem to think he's doing a good job... but that's not on the scoreboard.

 

[CHBench]

I think the team's first instinct is to look for Riewoldt, Gehrig or Kosi instead of going for goal. Our mids don't have the confidence to back themselves shooting for goal like the mids of Geelong do.

But something that could work to our advantage though is to get Gram to play a Lindsay Gilbee type role. Whenever there is an opportunity around the 50 mark he should push forward and unleash. I think in 2006 against Richmond, we smacked by 100 points or so. Gram had 3 goals to his name before qtr time, playing that role and that really set the tone for the day.

 

[Kildonan]

I think the problem still lies in our kicking skills.

Not many players are willing to take a crack from 50, they might kick them at training but in the heat of a match they look for a surer chance - someone closer.

Brendan Goddard can roost the ball, but I don't know how confident he is after his reco. His shot from 45m on Saturday was always going wide. That surprised me, yet his field kicking has been immaculate.

My kicking coach used to tell me to aim at a smaller object behind the goals. He used to have this theory that if you kicked for the goals, aiming for the large gap between the posts, then you can miss by a long way. He believed that your margin of error was proportional to the size of your target. If you aimed for something small and distant, your margin of error was much less.

Maybe this is what happened to BJ, he hasn't done a lot of goal kicking and possibly he is destined to due to his kicking skill, but I just thought that his lack of routine, (which allows even a real brainfade like Lloyd to be a great kick), meant that he failed to aim at a distant small target. That explains in my mind why can Goddard miss those shots and yet hit targets where he anticipates they are going to run to and still put the ball on their advantage side.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Well spoken Kildonian - what's the old saying, "aim small, miss small..."

 

[The Punter]

St Kilda, when playing poorly, don't like to back themselves to kick those long, momentum building, bring the house down, goals. That's why someone why Justin Peckett was still valuable at the end of his career - his ability to attempt long goals.

Against Essendon we got goals out of King and Ball, both mids, and from Charlie Gardiner, who doesn't kick many.

I would nominate Dal Santo, Montagna, Gram, Goddard & probably Birss as those who need to take on this responsibility, as all five are capable of long, accurate kicking.

 

[Squizz]

Gary Lyon's comments are such old news I thought I saw a tumbleweed pass by as a I read them.

When did we last have goalkicking midfielders? Nicky Winmar's day?

Monty has struggled with his shots for goal, with a number of kicks from 50 not making the distance. Lenny is an OK kick, but doesn't really run forward of the ball. Ball's comments that he would rather pass from 45m than have the shot gives him away.

Gram's output has been a little down, and we miss BJ further upfield (will get there with an improving fitness base). Gilbo was chipping in, and his injury was untimely.

Dal and X need to become failsafe in front of goal.

 

[Emmo]

I think the team's first instinct is to look for Riewoldt, Gehrig or Kosi instead of going for goal. Our mids don't have the confidence to back themselves shooting for goal like the mids of Geelong do.

But something that could work to our advantage though is to get Gram to play a Lindsay Gilbee type role. Whenever there is an opportunity around the 50 mark he should push forward and unleash. I think in 2006 against Richmond, we smacked by 100 points or so. Gram had 3 goals to his name before qtr time, playing that role and that really set the tone for the day.

hey Ch bench i think your right here, but would like to see goddard doing this more so thAn GRAMMY ( I THINK HIS CONFIDENCE IS LACKING AND SO TO IS HIS KICKING- SORRY BOUT CAPS) i think we will see shortly ross giving these sort of player a ticket to run carry and go for GOAL!~! ....bloody hope so!

 

[aussie86999]

Which opens another discussion.Why are players of this level such poor kicks for goal today (and theyre getting worse) consitently missing from 30 or less metres out directly in front is the pressure greater today? It certainly isnt the pace of the game today because im talking set shots....

 

[dan0z]

armo seems to like kicking goals which is good..

 

[sainter]

Gary Lyon's comments are such old news I thought I saw a tumbleweed pass by as a I read them.

When did we last have goalkicking midfielders? Nicky Winmar's day?

Monty has struggled with his shots for goal, with a number of kicks from 50 not making the distance. Lenny is an OK kick, but doesn't really run forward of the ball. Ball's comments that he would rather pass from 45m than have the shot gives him away.

Gram's output has been a little down, and we miss BJ further upfield (will get there with an improving fitness base). Gilbo was chipping in, and his injury was untimely.

Dal and X need to become failsafe in front of goal.

I agree that it was a terribly obvious thing to write about. Why is it that we're always the club that these ex-players write their opinion pieces on? We've already had Walls, Buckley, Voss and Lyon have their two cents worth. It seems like we're the easy targets. I guess that's what happens when you've only won 1 game for the season and sitting in 15th place. Oh, we're 5th?

Everytime Gram gets the ball he seems to try to kick the cover off it by the way. It's bad enough when we have our players with average skills missing goals and not finding targets but when you're best kicks have seemingly lost confidence with their disposal it just makes it so much worse.

Having said that, it's true that we don't get enough goals from the midfield. It's no surprise that people have been quick to blame the apparent defensive game plan but as seanoff correctly said it has always been the case.

 

[bluejay]

I agree that it was a terribly obvious thing to write about. Why is it that we're always the club that these ex-players write their opinion pieces on? We've already had Walls, Buckley, Voss and Lyon have their two cents worth. It seems like we're the easy targets. I guess that's what happens when you've only won 1 game for the season and sitting in 15th place. Oh, we're 5th?

I think that's exactly why: we're struggling and we're 5th!! What happens if we improve? My guess is that they write about something that they think can be improved, being it obvious or not. My guess is also that "they feel" for the Saints, like I've seen many posters in bigfooty write about, and they think if their old/own team doesn't win it all, at least they would like the Saints to. I don't think they're picking on us. Call me innocent or positive, but that's my opinion.

 

[aussie86999]

Yeh but as i said im talking about ALL footballers today lining up for goal 25 metres out directly in front absolutely Sh--ting bricks looking like they wish they never took the mark . No wonder Brian Lake played it up for someone else to take the deciding kick for goal maybe this will will be the new start of something anyone having a shot from outside the goal square with any angle other than directly in front have a sudden cramp attack and give the ball to the team mate you get along with least.

 

[Kildonan]

The guy, it seems, just wants to get his name out there.

Bla bla bla, look at me, bla bla bla

"Dal Santo and Montagna appear to have more attacking flair. They must be encouraged to take the game on forward of the centre, as Cooney and Griffen do for the Dogs".

Bla bla bla, aren't I clever? Look at me, bla bla bla.

Of course the midfielders will contribute more to scoring if our forwards are missing / gone.

If the Saints midfield suddenly does contribute more - then he is hoping that others will say "That's what Gary Lyon was telling them to do..."

Our midfield does need to contribute more towards scoring. It is a "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" thing. Our midfield has been avoiding flooding our forwardline to give our forwards as much space as possible hence they are predisposed to feeding the forwards rather than taking the shots themselves. The problem is that when that philosophy changes and we want the midfielders to take their shots, they have already been conditioned to look for the forwards and the decision making process becomes clouded, not instinctive, it is something they need to practice to make it more automatic, more fluid.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

We really seem to be an easy target.

I haven't seen any comments about the lack of goals from Hawthorns midfield (I haven't checked the stats in detail, but can't remember too many goals from Mitchell, Young, Bateman or Crawford - even Hodge should not have more than 3 or 4).

And they operate with two tall yet mobile forwards (Franklin and Roughead) with two very good 'small' forwards (Rioli and Williams) - but these forwards get a lot of the ball and score a lot of goals...

 

[Squizz]

The guy, it seems, just wants to get his name out there.

Bla bla bla, look at me, bla bla bla

"Dal Santo and Montagna appear to have more attacking flair. They must be encouraged to take the game on forward of the centre, as Cooney and Griffen do for the Dogs".

Bla bla bla, aren't I clever? Look at me, bla bla bla.

Of course the midfielders will contribute more to scoring if our forwards are missing / gone.

If the Saints midfield suddenly does contribute more - then he is hoping that others will say "That's what Gary Lyon was telling them to do..."

Our midfield does need to contribute more towards scoring. It is a "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" thing. Our midfield has been avoiding flooding our forwardline to give our forwards as much space as possible hence they are predisposed to feeding the forwards rather than taking the shots themselves. The problem is that when that philosophy changes and we want the midfielders to take their shots, they have already been conditioned to look for the forwards and the decision making process becomes clouded, not instinctive, it is something they need to practice to make it more automatic, more fluid.

Agree with you and Sainter. It's like Archer bagging the Tigers and then almost trying to take credit for their win against Freo, and Voss having a dip with the team thing.

I do think Lyon is much closer to the mark than Voss, but as I said it's old news.

There is an inclination issue - unless there is an obvious option I'd want the players to have a ping when inside 50 (whilst making sure the ball spins correctly!). It does seem as though a few of them second guess with the ball in their hands.

 

[makemytime]

Our midfield guns have kicked about 1 goal each every two matches, pretty poor stat compared to other teams. However, the less well-known midfielders (e.g. Charlie Gardiner, David Armitage) have kicked more goals, so I'm confused with Lyon's tactics

 

[bluejay]

Our midfield guns have kicked about 1 goal each every two matches, pretty poor stat compared to other teams. However, the less well-known midfielders (e.g. Charlie Gardiner, David Armitage) have kicked more goals, so I'm confused with Lyon's tactics

Since when Charlie Gardiner is a midfielder?

 

[mick13]

Using the dogs as an exaple was idiotic...

Dogs have no tall forwards at all, they don't really have a target to aim for everytime. So their midfield has to chip in with goals...otherwise they'd lose most games.

With Roo Kosi and G in the forward line, if our centres had a ping and missed they'd probs cop it with people saying they shoulda tried to get it to Roo or someone. Even though I'd rather the ball in Dal's hands rather than Roo's in front of goal.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Since when Charlie Gardiner is a midfielder?

Chuck's one of those funny type of half-forwards who runs up the ground a fair bit. That means he usually gets the pill about 70-50m from the goals, which is out of his range. Thus you could call him as much a half-midfield as a half-forward, if that makes sense.