Roast Ross Lyon: Man on the plank.

[gringo2011]

When you’re not talking about bottom outs Gringo you talk some fervid gold. IMO, this is on the money. I’m still not 100% Lyon is the man, think we’ll find out in next 12-18 months of footy, but is he what we need to get this club one step closer to where it needs to be when we look at the wider picture (I think it’s hard to say no).

No I don't I just tell it how it is. I warned you guys before when the club does dumb things. The club is at an absolute cross road. Lose Battle and continue to lose mid career guys a cliff will hit.

We seem to be on a see saw. Keep Battle, chase Stengle and keep building our mid age group. Or lose Battle and we trade out Marshall, leave Stengle and start to go full on draft. That's how you lose competitiveness and hit wall in 4 years and start a full on drop down for a few years straight. Probably don't hit a real finals winning band until the bulk of the list quality is in the 25 to 28 age bracket. 5 to 8 years if we get it right but good couple of years of uncompetitive footy.

Next few years we won't drop right away we'll struggle along just off the pace, maybe even get into the 8 again but then we will have an absolute fall off as those old guys drop off unless we pack out that middle group of players and the kids come on like we hope. Lyon or any coach won't get much out of it until then.

Hopefully the SOS rumours aren't true because this is the most important trade and draft period in years.

 

[gringo2011]

Lyon was brought in because we didn’t know if the problem was the coach or the list and the only way to know for sure was bring in a proven coach, and even though we’ve been playing a boring brand it’s looking like the problem is the list. Despite there being a few good young pieces to work with I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think we can rebuild without top 5 picks to use on midfielders. History shows you can’t buy them.

I like everything he’s set up off field but we desperately need someone from the Hardwick/Richmond tree to change things up offensively.

I don't think that it's possible to say until we get a good injury run. To me we need a premium mid to upgrade Crouch and a small high scoring forward and we are a step closer. I think we could easily make the 8 next season with that.

The midfield depth has been tested for years so we need a few players which Dow and Henry cover some of and hopefully Windhager keeps developing. Draft one and chase an old guy as a bridging player and we look much closer again or chase LDU etc.

 

[Verdun66]

You can't build a list through the national draft alone any more. We have very little to show for all the drafts from about when we were playing finals up until 2021.

From 2005 until Nas in 2021 we have got Ross and Webster 2011, Battle 2016, Clark and Paton 2017, King 2018, Byrnes 2019.
Collingwood have multiple players drafted from 2005, 2008, 2011, 2014 etc. And built every year after that.

We are getting the draft more right than wrong now but need to continue to pick off FAs and fringe players in to patch up holes and fill out the age profiles.

Letting players walk for compensation is a danger because it's a gamble with players in exactly the age we can't afford to lose and need to replace.

Losing guys like Marshall who are closer to the end would actually be a better model even if it is also a dangerous gamble.

You’re right. It’s a combination. We weren’t too good at any of the options until recently. Rookie draft pretty good really. We just haven’t got that gun midfielder that changes games. Two would be better.

 

[gringo2011]

Gutsy sort of.
People who create billion dollar empires tend to have all tend to have extreme levels of pragmatism and don't fall into the emotional traps that the rest of us do.
Ratts' stocks bottomed out almost overnight in footy terms and they simply didn't go chasing after the sunk cost.
Upon realisation of the mistake a review was held using an executioner whose opinion was beyond reproach.
Lyon being available and Ratts' termination payout set gave them a known outcome to the whole affair that was agreed in the backrooms beforehand.
It was a very standard corporate execution that bought upgrades everywhere and another grace period with supporters.

Lyon said from the start the focus will be on drafting and football education. Perhaps he didn't realise the extent of the required education, or perhaps he did. The list, apart from a handful of trade-ins had only ever known Richo and Ratts so really it was starting again from almost scratch.
Lyon also said the next coach would be developed internally and was all praising of Geelong's system. He's also credited Enright with developing the game plan, whatever the eff it's supposed to be. Boris is obviously the next in line so far a planning goes, but you'd assume the handover date is still TBD unless they've already set one.
One thing that's changed in the circa 2 years since appointed is that Lyon is no longer backing our senior players and has switched to "building around Windy and co" so the timeline has blown out in kind.

So with all that said, there's either a plan or I'm desperate, delusional and making shit up again. But IMHO it makes Ratts' sacking both obvious and easy, whilst justifiable under good business practices.

Ratts was the right call because the whole place was on the wrong path. It needed broom through it and a different direction. Rath and Lethers just as important to move on from. I still think Finnis was a good bloke but not focussed on footy. His austerity drive cost us years and probably takes 10 years to fully get past.

 

[Saintbloke]

Nothing against Lyon the man, just think it was a big mistake, but what's done is done. I'm surprised Bassat as a successful business man, chose to look back rather than go forward, but clearly some with influence got in his ear, and to get rid of Ratten and save face after breaking his contract, he would need to appoint a well regarded person as coach rather than have egg all over his face if a younger lower profile person was appointed and we went from finals to 14th the following year, playing an ordinary brand of football.
Football department personnel come and go in any club, and we're no different- don't kid yourselves, Bassat and Lyon never saw us in this situation this season, and now the old rebuild routine is rolled out yet again for the umpteenth time at this club to cover everyone's backsides.

 

[gringo2011]

You’re right. It’s a combination. We weren’t too good at any of the options until recently. Rookie draft pretty good really. We just haven’t got that gun midfielder that changes games. Two would be better.

Being competitive helps attract players. Henry came because we had a well regarded coach and looked on an upward trajectory. He left a club that had a down season like we are having. I think this year we need to tank and draft well. Next year go hell for leather and try to stay on an upwards path.

 

[Diehard Saint]

But IMHO it makes Ratts' sacking both obvious and easy, whilst justifiable under good business practices.

Yep. Don’t throw good money after bad.
Ratts and co weren’t taking us anywhere.

 

[St Neil]

I wouldn’t be surprised if, by the end of next season, they aren’t beginning to transition him into the top job (internally at least).

It’s not out of the question.

By the end of next season Lyon and Enright will BOTH have one year remaining in their current contract.

Not a bad time to organise a transition.

Whether Lyon agrees is another question. But it makes sense, Enright seems to have blossomed and grown in confidence with the extra responsibility. Lyon seems to have encouraged and promoted that.

 

[St Neil]

It really depends on team success. If we go nowhere under Lyon, Boris gets stained by association.

I’m not sure about that. If things have been straightened up internally, talent is flowing through, and culturally the club has become very strong, then I think Enright won’t be tainted.

The club will be able to assess Enright internally based on the quality of his work, communication skills, internal relationships, and capacity to function under pressure.

Whether Enright wants to stay, believes the club is on the right path, and has a realistic prospect of ultimate success, will all influence his ambition. So will the prospect of another club (such as Geelong) trying to entice him in the short term.

Most organised transitions have been from successful clubs. John Nicholls at Carlton in 1972, David Parkin at Hawthorn in 1977, Wayne Brittain at Carlton in 2002, Nathan Buckley at Collingwood and John Longmire at the Swans in 2012.

The only organised transition from a struggling club that worked was Robert Walls at Fitzroy in 1981. The only other organised transition from a struggling club that I can recall was Wayne Schimmelbush at North in 1990 and that was a flop.

History suggests that if we were to do it the club would need to be on an upward trajectory. And then the question would be rightfully asked, “why do it?”

I’m not sure Ross Lyon is the type to agree to an organised transition. But maybe I’m wrong.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It’s not out of the question.

By the end of next season Lyon and Enright will BOTH have one year remaining in their current contract.

Not a bad time to organise a transition.

Whether Lyon agrees is another question. But it makes sense, Enright seems to have blossomed and grown in confidence with the extra responsibility. Lyon seems to have encouraged and promoted that.

So you're guessing that Enright is a better coach?

 

[Drop Kick]

I’m not sure about that. If things have been straightened up internally, talent is flowing through, and culturally the club has become very strong, then I think Enright won’t be tainted.

The club will be able to assess Enright internally based on the quality of his work, communication skills, internal relationships, and capacity to function under pressure.

Whether Enright wants to stay, believes the club is on the right path, and has a realistic prospect of ultimate success, will all influence his ambition. So will the prospect of another club (such as Geelong) trying to entice him in the short term.

Most organised transitions have been from successful clubs. John Nicholls at Carlton in 1972, David Parkin at Hawthorn in 1977, Wayne Brittain at Carlton in 2002, Nathan Buckley at Collingwood and John Longmire at the Swans in 2012.

The only organised transition from a struggling club that worked was Robert Walls at Fitzroy in 1981. The only other organised transition from a struggling club that I can recall was Wayne Schimmelbush at North in 1990 and that was a flop.

History suggests that if we were to do it the club would need to be on an upward trajectory. And then the question would be rightfully asked, “why do it?”

I’m not sure Ross Lyon is the type to agree to an organised transition. But maybe I’m wrong.

Melbourne transitioned from Paul Roos to Simon Goodwin in 2017 after Goodwin signed a 5 year contract in late 2014.
2 years as Roos' assistant then 3 years as his replacement.

 

[St Neil]

So you're guessing that Enright is a better coach?

Not at all. Just making the point that if the club decides it wants to go down that route then the circumstances will align.

 

[St Neil]

Melbourne transitioned from Paul Roos to Simon Goodwin in 2017 after Goodwin signed a 5 year contract in late 2014.
2 years as Roos' assistant then 3 years as his replacement.

Correct. That was another one.

Even though Melbourne were not a successful side at the time their trajectory was heading North.

Similar to when Barassi left the Swans at the end of 1995.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Ratts was the right call because the whole place was on the wrong path. It needed broom through it and a different direction. Rath and Lethers just as important to move on from. I still think Finnis was a good bloke but not focussed on footy. His austerity drive cost us years and probably takes 10 years to fully get past.

Finnis ‘austerity drive’ got us a $50m facility in our homeland.

Without that I’d be gravely concerned about the future of the club.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Nothing against Lyon the man, just think it was a big mistake, but what's done is done. I'm surprised Bassat as a successful business man, chose to look back rather than go forward, but clearly some with influence got in his ear, and to get rid of Ratten and save face after breaking his contract, he would need to appoint a well regarded person as coach rather than have egg all over his face if a younger lower profile person was appointed and we went from finals to 14th the following year, playing an ordinary brand of football.
Football department personnel come and go in any club, and we're no different- don't kid yourselves, Bassat and Lyon never saw us in this situation this season, and now the old rebuild routine is rolled out yet again for the umpteenth time at this club to cover everyone's backsides.

Haven’t heard one peep from the club about a rebuild.

I have however heard them say we may have to take steps backward to get to where we want to be. They said that when Lyon was appointed & it has been referred to a number of times since.

Don’t kid yourself that your personal gripe with Lyon is effecting what you hear & don’t hear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Saint Watto]

How did the mob have the balls to sack Ratts in the first place and engineer the heist?

It started at the top....with Prez.

 

[gringo2011]

Finnis ‘austerity drive’ got us a $50m facility in our homeland.

Without that I’d be gravely concerned about the future of the club.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But potentially cost us 15 years of below average performance. Play good footy, earn money from a good product and spend accordingly. No need to go austere.

 

[StFly]

But potentially cost us 15 years of below average performance. Play good footy, earn money from a good product and spend accordingly. No need to go austere.

We were floundering in Seaford at the time and drawing absolutely nothing towards there but further grumblings about how Melbourne had better coffee and things to do and Frankston was shit by comparison.

We had to rebuild our club to "have" things instead of relying on people to bail us out consistently from poor decision making/inaction. I'll take Finnis not giving one iota of damn to funding that footy department that was working out of a shoebox previously governed by one Greg "when's he going to wake up" Westaway and Scott "this window is interesting and I look good" Nettleford.

 

[gringo2011]

We were floundering in Seaford at the time and drawing absolutely nothing towards there but further grumblings about how Melbourne had better coffee and things to do and Frankston was shit by comparison.

We had to rebuild our club to "have" things instead of relying on people to bail us out consistently from poor decision making/inaction. I'll take Finnis not giving one iota of damn to funding that footy department that was working out of a shoebox previously governed by one Greg "when's he going to wake up" Westaway and Scott "this window is interesting and I look good" Nettleford.

It would be nice to not have to accept a slightly better pile of crap and have the best of everything for a change. 2004 to 2010 was the only period we've had that was a sustained period of excellence in my life time. All of it while we played out of a dilapidated training facility.

 

[pebblesofsand]

We were floundering in Seaford at the time and drawing absolutely nothing towards there but further grumblings about how Melbourne had better coffee and things to do and Frankston was shit by comparison.

We had to rebuild our club to "have" things instead of relying on people to bail us out consistently from poor decision making/inaction. I'll take Finnis not giving one iota of damn to funding that footy department that was working out of a shoebox previously governed by one Greg "when's he going to wake up" Westaway and Scott "this window is interesting and I look good" Nettleford.

Finnis saved us from relocation - needs a statue out the front of RSEA Park.

 

[gringo2011]

Finnis saved us from relocation - needs a statue out the front of RSEA Park.

When did we get pushed to relocate? Should we make a statue for someone for a fantasy event? Making us shit for 15 years will do more to send us interstate than anything that a ground could do.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

But potentially cost us 15 years of below average performance. Play good footy, earn money from a good product and spend accordingly. No need to go austere.

We were broke & stuck at Seaford.

Poison to corporate dollars.

Unable to attract any players other than those desperate to get a go.

No money to pay off field talent hence giving the keys to recruitment to an assistant coach.

What Finnis did was a flipping miracle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

When did we get pushed to relocate? Should we make a statue for someone for a fantasy event? Making us shit for 15 years will do more to send us interstate than anything that a ground could do.

Finnis didn’t make us shit.

Drafting & trading decisions when we were challenging.

Trout making conservative selections (other than Dmac over Touk).

Rebuilding during the introduction of the franchises with prelistings & mini drafts culling the talent even before they pilfered the draft.

Free agency making teams in the window extend their window at the expense of teams rebuilding.

Losing key players to career ending injuries.

Change even a few of those factors around & not only are we much better on field but Finnis is recognised as a saviour by even the likes of you.

I’m not sure how you work out that we’re more in danger now with a $50m asset and more financially stable than we’ve ever been before.

Maybe you preferred the coffee at Belvedere Rd?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Satanic Saint]

No I don't I just tell it how it is. I warned you guys before when the club does dumb things. The club is at an absolute cross road. Lose Battle and continue to lose mid career guys a cliff will hit.

We seem to be on a see saw. Keep Battle, chase Stengle and keep building our mid age group. Or lose Battle and we trade out Marshall, leave Stengle and start to go full on draft. That's how you lose competitiveness and hit wall in 4 years and start a full on drop down for a few years straight. Probably don't hit a real finals winning band until the bulk of the list quality is in the 25 to 28 age bracket. 5 to 8 years if we get it right but good couple of years of uncompetitive footy.

Next few years we won't drop right away we'll struggle along just off the pace, maybe even get into the 8 again but then we will have an absolute fall off as those old guys drop off unless we pack out that middle group of players and the kids come on like we hope. Lyon or any coach won't get much out of it until then.

Hopefully the SOS rumours aren't true because this is the most important trade and draft period in years.

SOS is gone.

 

[gringo2011]

We were broke & stuck at Seaford.

Poison to corporate dollars.

Unable to attract any players other than those desperate to get a go.

No money to pay off field talent hence giving the keys to recruitment to an assistant coach.

What Finnis did was a flipping miracle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We weren't stuck anywhere. We went into debt to pay off Moorabin. All other clubs were given money by the AFL to build pro facilities too. I think we are looking back fondly at something that was probably happening anyway. On field success brings all the things we were trying to fix.

If I'm doing the whole thing over I'm hiring the best recruiter and list manager from a pro system and skimping on everything else.