Roast Ross Lyon: Man on the plank.

[StFly]

It would be nice to not have to accept a slightly better pile of crap and have the best of everything for a change. 2004 to 2010 was the only period we've had that was a sustained period of excellence in my life time. All of it while we played out of a dilapidated training facility.

Butts+GT = prelim finals = "let's hold a press conference so we can throw each other under moving traffic, where's a desk so I can crash as I am so blitzed it's not funny".
West+Nettles = Grand finals = "phone? What's that do? Where's my carrier pig- oo reflection, let me fix my hair"

Much better years apparently as footy was good.

Serious question, do you want a professionally run club to support or do you just care about on field results? I mean, I get it, it was nice having the envy of people, but I want more of it, not less and the persistent lack of things that was infuriating but had heart.

That heart is still there, it's just got slightly more backbone now.

 

[Drop Kick]

SOS is gone.

Gone where ?

He's probably just on his lunch break.

 

[pebblesofsand]

No I don't I just tell it how it is. I warned you guys before when the club does dumb things. The club is at an absolute cross road. Lose Battle and continue to lose mid career guys a cliff will hit.

We seem to be on a see saw. Keep Battle, chase Stengle and keep building our mid age group. Or lose Battle and we trade out Marshall, leave Stengle and start to go full on draft. That's how you lose competitiveness and hit wall in 4 years and start a full on drop down for a few years straight. Probably don't hit a real finals winning band until the bulk of the list quality is in the 25 to 28 age bracket. 5 to 8 years if we get it right but good couple of years of uncompetitive footy.

Next few years we won't drop right away we'll struggle along just off the pace, maybe even get into the 8 again but then we will have an absolute fall off as those old guys drop off unless we pack out that middle group of players and the kids come on like we hope. Lyon or any coach won't get much out of it until then.

Hopefully the SOS rumours aren't true because this is the most important trade and draft period in years.

How do you "hit the draft" if you don't trade out players with enough currency to get you extra quality picks in the draft?

If we finish around bottom 4 and Battle magically gets us 1st Round compo (pick 5) we'd be stupid to match it.

We'll chuck the kitchen sink at LDU but guess what - we aren't a top rating Melb club so we start behind the eight ball yet again.

But I'll tell you something for free - if we did get LDU and Pick 4&5 we won't be bottoming out and we won't be waiting 5 years for our "window" to open.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

We weren't stuck anywhere. We went into debt to pay off Moorabin. All other clubs were given money by the AFL to build pro facilities too. I think we are looking back fondly at something that was probably happening anyway. On field success brings all the things we were trying to fix.

If I'm doing the whole thing over I'm hiring the best recruiter and list manager from a pro system and skimping on everything else.

That’s all good in theory until you realise that the pro recruiting team you’re putting together laugh in your face when you tell them they’re gonna be based in North Frankston.

And we were arse out of our pants skint & in debt when we were at Seaford.


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[gringo2011]

Butts+GT = prelim finals = "let's hold a press conference so we can throw each other under moving traffic, where's a desk so I can crash as I am so blitzed it's not funny".
West+Nettles = Grand finals = "phone? What's that do? Where's my carrier pig- oo reflection, let me fix my hair"

Much better years apparently as footy was good.

Serious question, do you want a professionally run club to support or do you just care about on field results? I mean, I get it, it was nice having the envy of people, but I want more of it, not less and the persistent lack of things that was infuriating but had heart.

That heart is still there, it's just got slightly more backbone now.

I absolutely hate losing. I hate the lack of hope, the embarrassment, the mediocrity and even the acceptance of mediocrity. I hate other clubs fans not even knowing where we are on the ladder because we have become so irrelevant. I hate being reminded of being the wooden spoon kings.... all of it. I hate the patronising way other fans treat us like we have an illness. All of it.

To me the footy club is the team on the field and the aim of that team is to win as many games as possible and ultimately win flags. Footy is a basic game and building a list is also pretty basic but with an element of randomness thrown in.

I'm at the point where the club just shits me like some deadbeat dad that goes on gambling benders then comes home promising the world before going off on another bender. Sometimes you have to give up on the sunk cost.

 

[gringo2011]

That’s all good in theory until you realise that the pro recruiting team you’re putting together laugh in your face when you tell them they’re gonna be based in North Frankston.

And we were arse out of our pants skint & in debt when we were at Seaford.


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Essendon train under the Avgas and the runaways out at EA. Hawks are moving to the Dingley tip and currently use the old Waverley Park. Brisbane and GC have primitive facilities still. Seaford was more Carrum Downs and an extremely underwhelming building but it wouldn't have stopped many coming if the pay was right. Being a poorly run club puts people off more than location.

 

[Drop Kick]

Essendon train under the Avgas and the runaways out at EA. Hawks are moving to the Dingley tip and currently use the old Waverley Park. Brisbane and GC have primitive facilities still. Seaford was more Carrum Downs and an extremely underwhelming building but it wouldn't have stopped many coming if the pay was right. Being a poorly run club puts people off more than location.

Seaford was still a state of the art facility when they moved there compared to the dump that they left in Moorabbin.

 

[gringo2011]

How do you "hit the draft" if you don't trade out players with enough currency to get you extra quality picks in the draft?

If we finish around bottom 4 and Battle magically gets us 1st Round compo (pick 5) we'd be stupid to match it.

We'll chuck the kitchen sink at LDU but guess what - we aren't a top rating Melb club so we start behind the eight ball yet again.

But I'll tell you something for free - if we did get LDU and Pick 4&5 we won't be bottoming out and we won't be waiting 5 years for our "window" to open.

If we don't match we have to replace him, (possibly with someone on the list already). That's the dumb part of FA compo. It makes lower clubs give up talent to better sides to go gambling. It's tempting to roll the dice but if it goes badly you are two steps further away while the better side moves forward with a pick and a player.

We have already got a lot of youth in and now need to start refining rather than bulk building. Keep first and second round picks to draft and try to pick off players on the fringes or state leagues.

Of course you aren't bottoming out and that gives us a one in one out of the mid career players but it won't alone make us instantly competitive. If neither of the picks comes on you are royally ****ed though.

The bottoming out I'm talking about will hit when the Sinclair, Wilkie, Steele, Marshall, Wood, Hill, Webster, Howard, Butler. Even Ross, Campbell and Membrey are more from the depth pile.

We need to start to try to buy up picks and see if we can manipulate sides with academy players while they are still there too. Look at different options to find talent.

People laugh at Dildo but he's good at finding cheap talent. Nick Martin was from the SSP, Draper rookie list, Durham off the rookie list, Peter Wright future 4th round pick etc.

 

[UnfinishedBusiness]

He is ensuring we set up for the future. Get plenty of top resource behind the scenes. Better drafting and development. What we have complained about for as long as I can remember.

No more quick fixes….or bandaids. Draft and develop. Doesn’t happen overnight. Those that think he can (or should) coach us to quick success with a thin list are not realistic. He alludes to our shortfalls often enough. The playing style isn’t attractive but I see it as trying to develop a basic structure for the future. And not get flogged most weeks.

We’ve been skating on thin ice for years. Trading out picks for half decent players. Not attracting free agents. Perpetually coming 9-12. No Man’s land. We have been patient for a long time. But it bore no fruit. Can’t really see another way frankly.

I have followed us for over 60 years. Think I am fairly hardened by now. I haven’t seen light since about 2011. All my opinion but I think we are getting a core of the team to get success in the future. But much more to get layered in.

Interesting that we are doing that as Geelong and Melbourne start to slide. Adelaide? Port? Most of the teams on the rise went through recent (and not such recent) pain. Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn. Maybe we have to go through a bit more pain.

This!!


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[tony74]

It started at the top....with Prez.

Hallelujah brother

 

[SG34]

We lost out in 2014 when the Junction Oval didn’t materialise IMHO.

St Kilda with a base in St Kilda would have drawn people and money and attention and community.

And it would have drawn players.

Living in Port Melbourne etc.

it hursts me to say ‘nevermind’ and it is dishonest of me…

But Moorabbin is still better, I suppose, than Seaford which was ghastly.

We are unique as a club, and St Kilda is a unique and iconic place.

Nevermind.

But if we do disappear into the bowels of the ladder, I think we might not ‘bounce back’…

It will be difficult getting players and the existing good players will not get the sustenance they need.

King will never kick his 70 goals, because we will be sh#t, disorganised and inconsistent. Small forwards will be starved.

Maybe, we could become a cult club. Like we were to my peers in the ‘80s. We laughed together, we celebrated wins like grand finals, and place in the finals was never considered or contemplated by us. It was like we lived on the wrong side of the Berlin Wall. And all our lives had been so.

Although I was taken by a neighbor to a couple of losing finals in the early ‘70s, I didn’t know what was what. 1978 was the first taste of success when I was old enough to know what’s what. And it was a bipolar psychotic season for us.. From then it was graveyard and poverty …punctuated with colourful interludes and changes, and characters..and a decent dose of irony was needed to laugh and stay cheerful.

The Ken Sheldon break into the finals years were almost surreal.

I think we all knew that 2010, we were on the slide.

 

[littlecreatures]

Henry made point numerous times during today’s interview that he has “good coaches” around him and he’s been allowed to play with freedom suited to his strengths. He’s not the first this year, can also think of Higgins and Pou just to name a couple.

So, if we’re to point to trade rumours regarding Battle and Ro as a statement of fact that players are unsettled and unhappy like there’s disharmony across the club, are we then going to acknowledge direct accounts from players where they are praising the coaching staff or is it just rumours/speculation we should rely upon?

 

[Atomboy]

We lost out in 2014 when the Junction Oval didn’t materialise IMHO.

St Kilda with a base in St Kilda would have drawn people and money and attention and community.

And it would have drawn players.

Living in Port Melbourne etc.

it hursts me to say ‘nevermind’ and it is dishonest of me…

But Moorabbin is still better, I suppose, than Seaford which was ghastly.

We are unique as a club, and St Kilda is a unique and iconic place.

Nevermind.

But if we do disappear into the bowels of the ladder, I think we might not ‘bounce back’…

It will be difficult getting players and the existing good players will not get the sustenance they need.

King will never kick his 70 goals, because we will be sh#t, disorganised and inconsistent. Small forwards will be starved.

Maybe, we could become a cult club. Like we were to my peers in the ‘80s. We laughed together, we celebrated wins like grand finals, and place in the finals was never considered or contemplated by us. It was like we lived on the wrong side of the Berlin Wall. And all our lives had been so.

Although I was taken by a neighbor to a couple of losing finals in the early ‘70s, I didn’t know what was what. 1978 was the first taste of success when I was old enough to know what’s what. And it was a bipolar psychotic season for us.. From then it was graveyard and poverty …punctuated with colourful interludes and changes, and characters..and a decent dose of irony was needed to laugh and stay cheerful.

The Ken Sheldon break into the finals years were almost surreal.

I think we all knew that 2010, we were on the slide.

In 2009 there was madness in every direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, or up West Gate then definitely down St Kilda Road to Windsor or Brighton.

You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning.

And that, I think, was the handle — that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that.

Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting — on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful Saints bubble wave.

So now, less than fifteen years later, you can go up on the roller coaster at Luna Park and look South, and with the right kind of eyes, you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the Lyon wave finally broke and rolled back….

 

[ScrappyDo]

In 2009 there was madness in every direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, or up West Gate then definitely down St Kilda Road to Windsor or Brighton.

You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning.

And that, I think, was the handle — that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that.

Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting — on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful Saints bubble wave.

So now, less than fifteen years later, you can go up on the roller coaster at Luna Park and look South, and with the right kind of eyes, you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the Lyon wave finally broke and rolled back….

Thanks Hunter.

 

[pebblesofsand]

If we don't match we have to replace him, (possibly with someone on the list already). That's the dumb part of FA compo. It makes lower clubs give up talent to better sides to go gambling. It's tempting to roll the dice but if it goes badly you are two steps further away while the better side moves forward with a pick and a player.

We have already got a lot of youth in and now need to start refining rather than bulk building. Keep first and second round picks to draft and try to pick off players on the fringes or state leagues.

Of course you aren't bottoming out and that gives us a one in one out of the mid career players but it won't alone make us instantly competitive. If neither of the picks comes on you are royally ****ed though.

The bottoming out I'm talking about will hit when the Sinclair, Wilkie, Steele, Marshall, Wood, Hill, Webster, Howard, Butler. Even Ross, Campbell and Membrey are more from the depth pile.

We need to start to try to buy up picks and see if we can manipulate sides with academy players while they are still there too. Look at different options to find talent.

People laugh at Dildo but he's good at finding cheap talent. Nick Martin was from the SSP, Draper rookie list, Durham off the rookie list, Peter Wright future 4th round pick etc.

Battle is the perfect example of the type of player a club like ours needs to move on if we get overs for him whether that's by compo or a trade situation.

Originally a Pick 39, replaceable position as a 3rd tall defender.

But it's got to be overs so you get enough currency to improve the areas where we are deficient and that's the midfield.

 

[SG34]

Maybe that was sensible? lol
As in, there was an opportunity, a moment, perhaps a week between games, when one could sense something had shifted or slipped.
And whatever wind was pushing into the sails had vanished, and just the inertia of the boat left?

I live in Japan so I wasn’t there. As a fan overseas, the key moments that rang my bells were,

Late 2009
Ross takes a virtual second string team to Tassie and we wallop Hawthorn. BUT!! alas..we drop the Essendon game, just ..and then the North one
GF
Heater’s poster.
That post was ‘the’ iceberg
Luke Ball (late edit)
2010
Slow start.
Picking Baker
RTB says openly we were not the best team - and we weren’t I suppose
2011
Lovett (late edit - was that 2011?)
Cracks everywhere..
Bit players…
2012
Shane Warne is pleased we’ve moved on to Watters and we are playing ‘attacking’ footy at last. (It didn’t take long for that honeymoon to pass)
Last game
St Kilda plays attacking footy

This seems odd? Why?

 

[gringo2011]

Battle is the perfect example of the type of player a club like ours needs to move on if we get overs for him whether that's by compo or a trade situation.

Originally a Pick 39, replaceable position as a 3rd tall defender.

But it's got to be overs so you get enough currency to improve the areas where we are deficient and that's the midfield.

Why do other good clubs want a player like him though? I'm not sure if you remember but the idea is to build the best list, not cash in players for more picks to get a player that might be as good. He's still young and if you were to go to market to get him it would cost more in a trade.

The midfield needs top end and by the time a drafted mid comes on a enough to help us up the ladder guys like Steele will be on the way out and we'll need to start again. Guys in their mid 20s are the senior core in 4 or 5 years. We will have to go out and replace him which likely costs more in trades.

He can play both ends and top intercept defenders are some of the highest prized players in the competition. We need to draft a young mid and find some replacement for Crouch to bridge the gap so that we can make a run before the old guys fall off a cliff. Otherwise it could be a decade before we start showing anything and that's if we get the drafting right.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Why do other good clubs want a player like him though? I'm not sure if you remember but the idea is to build the best list, not cash in players for more picks to get a player that might be as good. He's still young and if you were to go to market to get him it would cost more in a trade.

The midfield needs top end and by the time a drafted mid comes on a enough to help us up the ladder guys like Steele will be on the way out and we'll need to start again. Guys in their mid 20s are the senior core in 4 or 5 years. We will have to go out and replace him which likely costs more in trades.

He can play both ends and top intercept defenders are some of the highest prized players in the competition. We need to draft a young mid and find some replacement for Crouch to bridge the gap so that we can make a run before the old guys fall off a cliff. Otherwise it could be a decade before we start showing anything and that's if we get the drafting right.

Clubs would want Battle for the same reason Essendon wanted McKay - a club thinks he fills a need. The question is how much clubs would pay to fill that need.

Personally I think any club would stupid to pay Battle enough to get us 1st round compo because he's a 3rd tall defender.

You say we need two quality mids but we only have one high draft pick.

So if the price of getting a second quality mid is having any of Cordy, Sharman, Caminiti or Schoenmaker play as the 3rd tall replacing Battle then sign me up.

 

[Satanic Saint]

Gone where ?

He's probably just on his lunch

Gone where ?

He's probably just on his lunch break.

Family emergency will force his departure.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Essendon train under the Avgas and the runaways out at EA. Hawks are moving to the Dingley tip and currently use the old Waverley Park. Brisbane and GC have primitive facilities still. Seaford was more Carrum Downs and an extremely underwhelming building but it wouldn't have stopped many coming if the pay was right. Being a poorly run club puts people off more than location.

Brisbane has a new facility next to Springfield Station in Brisbane

 

[gringo2011]

Clubs would want Battle for the same reason Essendon wanted McKay - a club thinks he fills a need. The question is how much clubs would pay to fill that need.

Personally I think any club would stupid to pay Battle enough to get us 1st round compo because he's a 3rd tall defender.

You say we need two quality mids but we only have one high draft pick.

So if the price of getting a second quality mid is having any of Cordy, Sharman, Caminiti or Schoenmaker play as the 3rd tall replacing Battle then sign me up.

So move the plug for the hole in the boat from the back to the middle?

 

[Dr Spaceman]

So move the plug for the hole in the boat from the back to the middle?

Well if you’ve got a better idea now might be the time to speak up

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Well if you’ve got a better idea now might be the time to speak up

I am gunna need a bigger hole

 

[pebblesofsand]

So move the plug for the hole in the boat from the back to the middle?

5th lowest points against suggests the biggest hole is not in defence. And any half decent team defence holds up pretty well these days.

Any poster on here will tell you our "hole" is in the quality of the midfield.

We need mids mids mids - isn't that what you've been saying for years?

I'm more than happy to drop down to the 8th best defence if we end up with better mids and better i50 entries.

 

[gringo2011]

5th lowest points against suggests the biggest hole is not in defence. And any half decent team defence holds up pretty well these days.

Any poster on here will tell you our "hole" is in the quality of the midfield.

We need mids mids mids - isn't that what you've been saying for years?

I'm more than happy to drop down to the 8th best defence if we end up with better mids and better i50 entries.

So pick 6 gives us a star mid next year?