Geelong - Too old, too slow?

[Moley Russels Wart]

New year, same thread. The news of Geelong's death, has been greatly exaggerated!

Yes they play the worlds most boring footy. Yes you hate them and want to see them fail (especially Adelaide, West Coast and Brisbane supporters - if they have any), everyone else - even hawthorn supporters seem to have gotten over it.

They are going ok tho for a team with it's number 2, 3, 4, 5 forwards missing and number 6 and 7 going down in the game.

(For those playing at home I'm saying 2.Cameron 3.Dangerfield 4.Ratogolea 5.Rohan I guess? sigh 6. Evans 7.Shiggins

 

[JamesCroft89]

New year, same thread. The news of Geelong's death, has been greatly exaggerated!

Yes they play the worlds most boring footy. Yes you hate them and want to see them fail (especially Adelaide, West Coast and Brisbane supporters - if they have any), everyone else - even hawthorn supporters seem to have gotten over it.

They are going ok tho for a team with it's number 2, 3, 4, 5 forwards missing and number 6 and 7 going down in the game.

(For those playing at home I'm saying 2.Cameron 3.Dangerfield 4.Ratogolea 5.Rohan I guess? sigh 6. Evans 7.Shiggins

Do you seriously believe you'll just hang around the top forever?

You actually did drop to the bottom half in 2015, but got a big prop up in Dangerfield, and have been topping up even more older players to keep it going.

There will come a point where it all comes crashing down. With key players like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield in their 30s, along with the horrible negative game style seen on Monday, there is reason to believe it will come sooner than you want to believe.

 

[PhatBoy]

Do you seriously believe you'll just hang around the top forever?

You actually did drop to the bottom half in 2015, but got a big prop up in Dangerfield, and have been topping up even more older players to keep it going.

There will come a point where it all comes crashing down. With key players like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield in their 30s, along with the horrible negative game style seen on Monday, there is reason to believe it will come sooner than you want to believe.

Our ‘drop’ in 2015 saw us record a win loss record which would have qualified us for finals almost every season in the last 12 years.

Some points.

‘Do you seriously think you’ll just hang around the top forever?’
Well we made the preliminary final in 2004 and in the 16 completed seasons thereafter we’ve won 10 games once, 11.5 games another time, and played finals every other season. We’ve done a better job of it than basically any team in history so yeah, we do start to think that having turned over an entire list and found ourselves back in the grand final, we for some reason think ‘wow we’ve turned over one of the greatest lists in the sport’s history and we are still making prelim and grand finals - it seems we are quite reasonable at this Being Competitive business and maybe we have been doing something right.’


Furthermore whether we expect to be at the top forever or not, we expect to be aiming to compete as often as possible so while some clubs or fan bases might settle for five years of shithousery to have a chance to try and compete, we don’t.

Regarding your deleted post - yes it’s amazing when your club has never finished lower than 12th how it becomes a habit to not more or less give up and deliberately be shit for a few years.

 

[JamesCroft89]

I dont think Geelong are contenders this year. If they make the 8, it will be 7th-8th.

Part of the reason they went from 8th in 2018 to 1st in 2019 is because other teams went backwards and Geelong more or less sustained consistency. West Coast went backwards, Collingwood went backwards, Hawthorn went far backwards, Melbourne went far backwards, Sydney went far backwards, and none of the teams outside the 8 in 2018 really improved that much. Geelong only picked up 3 more wins in 2019 compared to 2018, where they barely scraped into the 8.

As for 2020, who cares. The covid year isn't an accurate representation of where teams are really at.

In 2021, we're already seeing explosive improvement from younger, more talented teams than Geelong like Sydney, the Western Bulldogs and Melbourne. On top of that, the new rule changes have clearly cranked up the speed of the game, making it all the more difficult for older, slower players to keep up.

Yes, many have falsely predicted the demise of Geelong for the last 10 years, but in 2021, the case is stronger than it's ever been.

If I were a Geelong supporter, I'd be pretty worried too, because assuming they do drop, I suspect Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

48

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

will strongly oppose the idea of rebuilding, and will insist on going down the North Melbourne/Hawthorn path.

 

[JamesCroft89]

Regarding your deleted post - yes it’s amazing when your club has never finished lower than 12th how it becomes a habit to not more or less give up and deliberately be sh*t for a few years.

I didn't delete it, I edited it then it said this post requires moderator approval.

One of the consequences of not engineering a proper rebuild is that, while you've consistently made finals, you haven't been a "great" team for nearly 10 years. In every single one of those years, not only has Geelong been vastly inferior to their peak 2007-2011 years, but they've also been clearly inferior to 1-4 teams, which have gone onto win the flag.

This is not something that can be fixed with perpetual top ups. This is something that requires a core list rejuvenation, something you clearly don't seem too keen on, and I'm sure Chris Scott agrees with you.

The competition this year is faster, fitter, stronger and better than ever, and within the next 1-3 years, we should also start seeing teams like Fremantle, Gold Coast and Carlton start mounting a challenge. I wonder if you'll still believe in Chris Scott's plan to keep topping up with old plodders...

 

[PhatBoy]

I didn't delete it, I edited it then it said this post requires moderator approval.

One of the consequences of not engineering a proper rebuild is that, while you've consistently made finals, you haven't been a "great" team for nearly 10 years. In every single one of those years, not only has Geelong been vastly inferior to their peak 2007-2011 years, but they've also been clearly inferior to 1-4 teams, which have gone onto win the flag.

This is not something that can be fixed with perpetual top ups. This is something that requires a core list rejuvenation, something you clearly don't seem too keen on, and I'm sure Chris Scott agrees with you.

The competition this year is faster, fitter, stronger and better than ever, and within the next 1-3 years, we should also start seeing teams like Fremantle, Gold Coast and Carlton start mounting a challenge. I wonder if you'll still believe in Chris Scott's plan to keep topping up with old plodders...

What?

Ok so we’ve been inferior to a side that won more games over a five year period than any team in the code’s history.

Huge fail there.

Clearly inferior to 1-4 teams? So in other words we’ve been better than roughly 80 per cent of the competition.

If you look at the teams who have won the competition over the last decade I would suggest that rarely in a given year have they been definitively the best in that year. Bulldogs are the obvious ones but even Richmond in a couple of their flag years haven’t been the stand out team. They’ve simply played their best football when it counts the most. For the most part we haven’t. It is that simple and no amount of death riding us or setting a different standard for Geelong to what the rest of the competition is judged on, is going to change that.

Making a grand final and losing in the second half of it isn’t this critical failure that suddenly it seems to be made out to be

 

[juss]

They should be 1-2, but could easily be 0-3.

The only thing is its very early in the season and even moreso than other years, the Grand Finalists started their preseasons late so they might take a while to get going. Need to give it another month. I think they'll come good and still be at least top 6.

 

[Sttew]

I didn't delete it, I edited it then it said this post requires moderator approval.

One of the consequences of not engineering a proper rebuild is that, while you've consistently made finals, you haven't been a "great" team for nearly 10 years. In every single one of those years, not only has Geelong been vastly inferior to their peak 2007-2011 years, but they've also been clearly inferior to 1-4 teams, which have gone onto win the flag.

This is not something that can be fixed with perpetual top ups. This is something that requires a core list rejuvenation, something you clearly don't seem too keen on, and I'm sure Chris Scott agrees with you.

The competition this year is faster, fitter, stronger and better than ever, and within the next 1-3 years, we should also start seeing teams like Fremantle, Gold Coast and Carlton start mounting a challenge. I wonder if you'll still believe in Chris Scott's plan to keep topping up with old plodders...

How long does a “core list rejuvenation” take and what is the success rate?

 

[PhatBoy]

How long does a “core list rejuvenation” take and what is the success rate?

Probably not enough data to give an answer given that most of the clubs who’ve tried it still haven’t reached the end

 

[Leeda]

Hun I can make you cry....sure as chocolate is addiction..

 

[Sttew]

Hun I can make you cry....sure as chocolate is addiction..

Are you in the right thread? This isn't a dating site...

 

[Leeda]

Are you in the right thread? This isn't a dating site...

lol... you aren't the worlds best star either...

 

[JamesCroft89]

What?

Ok so we’ve been inferior to a side that won more games over a five year period than any team in the code’s history.

Huge fail there.

Clearly inferior to 1-4 teams? So in other words we’ve been better than roughly 80 per cent of the competition.

If you look at the teams who have won the competition over the last decade I would suggest that rarely in a given year have they been definitively the best in that year. Bulldogs are the obvious ones but even Richmond in a couple of their flag years haven’t been the stand out team. They’ve simply played their best football when it counts the most. For the most part we haven’t. It is that simple and no amount of death riding us or setting a different standard for Geelong to what the rest of the competition is judged on, is going to change that.

Making a grand final and losing in the second half of it isn’t this critical failure that suddenly it seems to be made out to be

What do you think the ultimate goal is? To win a flag or to be a team that wins consistently?

The Bulldogs in the 2016 finals series played far better football than Geelong ever has since 2011. Same goes for Richmond. This is the difference between a good solid team that wins consistently, and a champion team that wins when it really matters. You might be content with Chris Scott's consistency, but it will never be enough to be a champion team that wins the ultimate prize, especially with such an old and slow squad.

 

[JamesCroft89]

How long does a “core list rejuvenation” take and what is the success rate?

How long it takes varies, the success rate depends on how well you draft.

If you're going to scrutinise success rate and how rebuilding, you're going to sound exactly like Hawthorn supporters from 2016-2018.

Your club built a champion team through the draft from 1999-2002, which won 3 flags. Your current team full of top ups isn't even remotely as good, and has made only one Grand Final in 10 years, and it was a covid year.

 

[PhatBoy]

What do you think the ultimate goal is? To win a flag or to be a team that wins consistently?

The Bulldogs in the 2016 finals series played far better football than Geelong ever has since 2011. Same goes for Richmond. This is the difference between a good solid team that wins consistently, and a champion team that wins when it really matters. You might be content with Chris Scott's consistency, but it will never be enough to be a champion team that wins the ultimate prize, especially with such an old and slow squad.

And 17 teams a year don’t achieve it.

so what.
You think a team who is perpetually close and in the last few years has actually had legitimate in-game chances to win the competition should just chuck it all away and start again

 

[PhatBoy]

How long it takes varies, the success rate depends on how well you draft.

If you're going to scrutinise success rate and how rebuilding, you're going to sound exactly like Hawthorn supporters from 2016-2018.

Your club built a champion team through the draft from 1999-2002, which won 3 flags. Your current team full of top ups isn't even remotely as good, and has made only one Grand Final in 10 years, and it was a covid year.

lol, again ‘you’re not remotely as good as the mathematically greatest team in the sport’s history.’

oh woe is us

Lol at the Covid reference.

sorry did Covid run through the other 16 playing lists or something? I could have sworn each team was playing its opponents with 22 players against 22, and the already non existent draw equality was simply unequal for a different reason than it normally is.

silly me -I bet tigers fans will be shattered that their premiership cup is actually shaped and sized like a medicinal cough medicine dispenser

 

[juss]

Another thought I have as well, Geelong have been an excellent H&A team for as long as I can remember. It genuinely feels like they've made finals the last 15 years. However ignoring 2011, Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

48

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

's record in finals is poor. There's no use looking amazing and belting teams by 70 points in round 13 and being ousted in finals before the flag.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are planning to time their run to peak in September rather than looking amazing in the H&A all year.
Richmond recently, the Bulldogs in 2016, it's important to be playing the best footy at the end of the year and maybe that's their focus especially with the delayed preseason this year.

 

[JamesCroft89]

lol, again ‘you’re not remotely as good as the mathematically greatest team in the sport’s history.’

oh woe is us

Lol at the Covid reference.

sorry did Covid run through the other 16 playing lists or something? I could have sworn each team was playing its opponents with 22 players against 22, and the already non existent draw equality was simply unequal for a different reason than it normally is.

silly me -I bet tigers fans will be shattered that their premiership cup is actually shaped and sized like a medicinal cough medicine dispenser

The covid year isn't worth much in the context of this thread because its not an accurate indicator of where teams are really at. I know you're desperate to rationalise it because you're desperate for your club to hang on, but every team handled covid differently, from the lack of crowds, to being forced to live in Queensland, etc.

West Coast had a horrible start to the year in 2020, but this year, they already look far better, and they're playing drastically better football than Geelong.

I'll say it again since you have difficulty understanding; just about every flag-winning team in the last 20 years had undergone some kind of rebuild. Your club built a champion list from 99-02, and success followed from 07-11. Your 2021 team however, consists heavily of old top-ups, and your youth is vastly inferior to other teams on the rise. Its hardly a surprise Geelong haven't won a flag in the last 10 years, and I highly doubt they will even come close to winning it this year.

 

[JamesCroft89]

Another thought I have as well, Geelong have been an excellent H&A team for as long as I can remember. It genuinely feels like they've made finals the last 15 years. However ignoring 2011, Chris Scott's record in finals is poor. There's no use looking amazing and belting teams by 70 points in round 13 and being ousted in finals before the flag.

This is the difference between a champion team and a good consistent team. Champion teams will always rise above the rest when it really matters.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are planning to time their run to peak in September rather than looking amazing in the H&A all year.
Richmond recently, the Bulldogs in 2016, it's important to be playing the best footy at the end of the year and maybe that's their focus especially with the delayed preseason this year.

There is no "saving your best for September". You're either good enough or you're not. The Bulldogs were good enough, even if they didn't have the consistency throughout the H&A season. Geelong haven't been good enough for 10 years.

 

[fpm84]

Another thought I have as well, Geelong have been an excellent H&A team for as long as I can remember. It genuinely feels like they've made finals the last 15 years. However ignoring 2011, Chris Scott's record in finals is poor. There's no use looking amazing and belting teams by 70 points in round 13 and being ousted in finals before the flag.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are planning to time their run to peak in September rather than looking amazing in the H&A all year.
Richmond recently, the Bulldogs in 2016, it's important to be playing the best footy at the end of the year and maybe that's their focus especially with the delayed preseason this year.

The shorter preseason probably has an impact but our forward line is literally descimated at the moment.

On Monday we were missing Dangerfield and Rohan from our GF forward line of last year (as well as the retired Ablett). Cameron hasn't played yet despite our whole pre-season focusing on the synergy between he and Hawkins. Ratugolea who has shown plenty of talent is also injured. Dahlhaus barely had a pre-season and has started the year in shocking form yet we have nobody to bring in for him.

We are also missing Menegola who is one of the better overhead marks for his size and is usually good for close to a goal a game (16 from 21 games last year).

By round 5 we should have Cameron, Dangerfield and Rohan all in the side and I am certain we will see more proactive ball movement with a much more dangerous forward line to kick to.

 

[JamesCroft89]

The shorter preseason probably has an impact but our forward line is literally descimated at the moment.

On Monday we were missing Dangerfield and Rohan from our GF forward line of last year (as well as the retired Ablett). Cameron hasn't played yet despite our whole pre-season focusing on the synergy between he and Hawkins. Ratugolea who has shown plenty of talent is also injured. Dahlhaus barely had a pre-season and has started the year in shocking form yet we have nobody to bring in for him.

We are also missing Menegola who is one of the better overhead marks for his size and is usually good for close to a goal a game (16 from 21 games last year).

By round 5 we should have Cameron, Dangerfield and Rohan all in the side and I am certain we will see more proactive ball movement with a much more dangerous forward line to kick to.

How is an undermanned forward like an excuse for slow, stagnant ball movement through the middle and out of defence?

Gary Rohan is meant to be one of the saviors now? The guy is 30 years old and has been inconsistent his whole career.

 

[PhatBoy]

The covid year isn't worth much in the context of this thread because its not an accurate indicator of where teams are really at. I know you're desperate to rationalise it because you're desperate for your club to hang on, but every team handled covid differently, from the lack of crowds, to being forced to live in Queensland, etc.

West Coast had a horrible start to the year in 2020, but this year, they already look far better, and they're playing drastically better football than Geelong.

I'll say it again since you have difficulty understanding; just about every flag-winning team in the last 20 years had undergone some kind of rebuild. Your club built a champion list from 99-02, and success followed from 07-11. Your 2021 team however, consists heavily of old top-ups, and your youth is vastly inferior to other teams on the rise. Its hardly a surprise Geelong haven't won a flag in the last 10 years, and I highly doubt they will even come close to winning it this year.

Some kind of rebuild.
Rebuild = turning over a list

rebuilding in a different way doesn’t count though unless all those names were read out by Geelong at a draft?

if we had the same line up last year in the grand final but they’d have all come from draft picks and we lost in the back end of the season decider would that somehow make a difference to our apparently hopeless status?

 

[fpm84]

How is an undermanned forward like an excuse for slow, stagnant ball movement through the middle and out of defence?

Gary Rohan is meant to be one of the saviors now? The guy is 30 years old and has been inconsistent his whole career.

Because we look forward and see Hawkins double or tripled teamed and literally no other marking targets? We had to put a defender - Jack Henry - up forward in the second half on Monday. You don't think adding Jeremy Cameron and/or Esava Ratugolea into that side will make a difference?

Also nobody ever said Rohan was a savior? He plays an important role with his speed, pressure and ability to crash a pack.

 

[PhatBoy]

How is an undermanned forward like an excuse for slow, stagnant ball movement through the middle and out of defence?

Gary Rohan is meant to be one of the saviors now? The guy is 30 years old and has been inconsistent his whole career.

And how is three games at the very start of a season without our best and third best midfielder an indication that that’s how we’re going to play every week?

 

[JamesCroft89]

And how is three games at the very start of a season without our best and third best midfielder an indication that that’s how we’re going to play every week?

Its a 22 man game. You really believe two 30 year olds are going to fix your ball movement?

Like I said, and the point you keep ignoring; the problem for you isn't so much Geelong potentially declining; it's younger, faster, fresher teams looking like having a big year. This week's game against Melbourne should be very interesting; I suspect you're in for a sobering reality check.