No Oppo Supporters General AFL discussion and other club news

[Flamin Joe]

I do remember an interview a few years ago with Sav Rocca after he played a couple of NFL seasons. He said NFL is a harder game to play, coach and requires much more athletic preparation than anything he saw at AFL level. I heard a similar interview with Ben Graham. This is from 2 afl vets who know both sports intimately.

Sav Rocca retired in 2007 and Ben Graham in 2005. A lot has changed in the 17+ years in the way players prepare themselves and the facilities available to them to allow them to do so.

Their opinions are relevant to when they played, not now.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Have the Hawks supporters really moved on after losing a very winnable match, and Kenny giving some well deserved lip back to some of your players? I suspect the loss is still a little raw and was a great opportunity missed, especially after the Swans shat the bed in the GF (again).

Who's this guy?

 

[peetoo]

Can the $mill go to the Kennedy centre?

Lions, Hawks head tight race for $1m McClelland Trophy prize

Hawthorn's win over Fremantle on Sunday has closed the gap on leader Brisbane in the McClelland Trophy race

www.afl.com.au

 

[peetoo]

Sav Rocca retired in 2007 and Ben Graham in 2005. A lot has changed in the 17+ years in the way players prepare themselves and the facilities available to them to allow them to do so.

Their opinions are relevant to when they played, not now.

You’d think it’s like comparing sprint with long distance, with wrestling breaks

 

[peetoo]

View attachment 2133228

Put it on the white board.

Cos they dropped the grandad FF. Methinks Koch is a little salty being out promoted

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Cos they dropped the grandad FF. Methinks Koch is a little salty being out promoted

I pay no attention to Koch, he knows stuff all about football. He's just a media person who is there in a feeble attempt to lift the club's profile. He recently blamed the SANFL for the fact their reserves team finished bottom.

 

[Roddy27]

View attachment 2133228

Put it on the white board.

I said elsewhere that while comments like this tend to poke the bear, it is an absolute compliment to us that we would be mentioned at another club's best and fairest by their president. Gives insight into internal conversations, who they rate, and displays what they're worried about. GOOD JOB Hawks. We are living rent free in Kochy's head.

 

[arupist]

I said elsewhere that while comments like this tend to poke the bear, it is an absolute compliment to us that we would be mentioned at another club's best and fairest by their president. Gives insight into internal conversations, who they rate, and displays what they're worried about. GOOD JOB Hawks. We are living rent free in Kochy's head.

There's not much room in there. Hope the boys can stretch out a bit.

 

[KermitJagger]

Agree to disagree. If you look back at the original post it was the "this is the hardest sport in the world to officiate" line which was thrown around by coaches and media which is 100% myopic imo. It's the same premise of AFL athleticism. Im not denigrating the capability of AFL athletes at all, its more where the level of athleticism in AFL compared to all global sports is rated. As someone said before, every person in every country has a different opinion on this and the main sport in each country will justify why their national sport has the best athletes.
I do remember an interview a few years ago with Sav Rocca after he played a couple of NFL seasons. He said NFL is a harder game to play, coach and requires much more athletic preparation than anything he saw at AFL level. I heard a similar interview with Ben Graham. This is from 2 afl vets who know both sports intimately.
There's a lot of preparation that goes in to major league sports that we don't see and we just assume through game play that it's not as difficult as AFL. Just annoys me when I hear "world's best or most difficult". Right up there with the Americans calling the NBA championship World Champions, world's most liveable city etc.

You're arguing a completely different thing.

From player to player, position to position, Australian rules footballers would be amongst the fittest and most well rounded sports people in the world. It's honestly beyond debate. What you're saying is similar to saying a triathlete isn't athletic because there are better runners, swimmers and cyclists.

The NFL is about specificity, in the AFL every player is pretty much a generalist. If you took an offensive tackle and asked them to play 25m quarters with limited stoppage time and run 12+ kilometres they'd be cramping and crashing out at quarter time. Pretty much any NFL player in any position would be.

I also would like to see where both of those players said that the game is harder, and more athletically demanding - because I can really only find Rocca talking about how hard it was to learn given that he knew nothing about it.

 

[Buckemenico]

If barass is worth more than our first than baz smith is worth at least one top 8 pick

 

[Hawkboy62]

Collingwood is going for Gold with an aggressive strategy this season.

Assuming they can get Houston they will be set up for more silverware well into the future. In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman
Quaynor
Schultz
Hill
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski
McReeery
Dean
McGuane

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

 

[barbster]

If barass is worth more than our first than baz smith is worth at least one top 8 pick

Different scenarios, Barass is contracted for another 3 years, Smith uncontracted.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Collingwood is going for Gold with an aggressive strategy this season.

Assuming they can get Houston they will be set up for more silverware well into the future. In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman
Quaynor
Schultz
Hill
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski
McReeery
Dean
McGuane

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

Scary for them. Toes are on edge of the cliff.

 

[Titch3Votes0MooreAA]

Collingwood is going for Gold with an aggressive strategy this season.

Assuming they can get Houston they will be set up for more silverware well into the future. In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman
Quaynor
Schultz
Hill
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski
McReeery
Dean
McGuane

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

14 genuine all-stars? Made me laugh. The only all-stars there are Nick and Josh Daicos, Moore, De Goey, Maynard and Houston (McGuane will probably become one). Perryman, McCreery, Lipinski, Schultz, Hill, and Quaynor are all solid players without being the elite of the elite like we have at our disposal. Ethan Phillips showed more in one game than Dean. Our equivalent players are better than most of the players you've listed. Same at several other clubs. Collingwood's future success will be determined by recruiting, their lesser players standing up and playing their role, and the quality of Craig McRae's system.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

You're arguing a completely different thing.

From player to player, position to position, Australian rules footballers would be amongst the fittest and most well rounded sports people in the world. It's honestly beyond debate. What you're saying is similar to saying a triathlete isn't athletic because there are better runners, swimmers and cyclists.

The NFL is about specificity, in the AFL every player is pretty much a generalist. If you took an offensive tackle and asked them to play 25m quarters with limited stoppage time and run 12+ kilometres they'd be cramping and crashing out at quarter time. Pretty much any NFL player in any position would be.

I also would like to see where both of those players said that the game is harder, and more athletically demanding - because I can really only find Rocca talking about how hard it was to learn given that he knew nothing about it.

I was using NFL as an example of not knowing the preparation required because its not an Australian sport. I understand AFL preparation intimately because I've grown up on it. There is a very very strong argument to say NHL players may be the most athletic but that would be purely subjective.

Imo if anyone is saying categorically that AFL players are the best athletes, AFL is the most brutal game in the world etc, its different to saying "amongst the best athletes" as you have rightly stated above. Just like saying its the most difficult game in the world to officiate. One of the worlds most difficult sports to officiate - not THE most difficult sport.

I'd have to find the video on Ben Graham/Sav Rocca. It was on US ESPN many years ago but it was something along the lines of underestimating the athletic requirements needed to be successful in NFL and that preparation for an AFL season was not as demanding (as the support teams/specialist coaches were much smaller/less budget compared to NFL.) They weren't specifically talking about their roles as punters but the full roster.

 

[peetoo]

Wasn’t graham at geelong in the Ablett snr era? Notoriously poor trainer, that has to rub off somewhere

 

[KermitJagger]

I was using NFL as an example of not knowing the preparation required because its not an Australian sport. I understand AFL preparation intimately because I've grown up on it. There is a very very strong argument to say NHL players may be the most athletic but that would be purely subjective.

Imo if anyone is saying categorically that AFL players are the best athletes, AFL is the most brutal game in the world etc, its different to saying "amongst the best athletes" as you have rightly stated above. Just like saying its the most difficult game in the world to officiate. One of the worlds most difficult sports to officiate - not THE most difficult sport.

I'd have to find the video on Ben Graham/Sav Rocca. It was on US ESPN many years ago but it was something along the lines of underestimating the athletic requirements needed to be successful in NFL and that preparation for an AFL season was not as demanding (as the support teams/specialist coaches were much smaller/less budget compared to NFL.) They weren't specifically talking about their roles as punters but the full roster.

Alright I've read the whole chain so I'm going to dial it back to the points you've argued against. Besides the point that no one has really categorically said anything, I've tried to keep it on point.

Hardest to officiate? I think there's a case to be made that it is. You've suggested that NHL refs have it worse but unlike most other sporting codes, their refs are full time and extremely well paid. They can dedicate all their time to it. Aussie Rules umpires are not only part time, but expected to run almost as much as the players and call frees through 360 degree congestion caused by a uniquely large number of players. There's one umpire per 9 players in the AFL, 1 per 6 in the NHL. We also have the challenge of more regular rule and interpretation changes than other sports, which makes officiating more difficult year on year.

I've already made the case for it being one of the most athletic, but in terms of it being brutal I think there's a similar case to be made, but like in an athletic sense the brutality of playing AFL is far more general. It's as injurious from a soft tissue perspective as Soccer, it has hits and tackles enough for concussion to be a massive problem and unlike most other contact sports the pressure isn't mostly frontal. There isn't the same risk on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but it grinds you down. I reckon the AFL has a unique risk in terms of ending your career with a couple of busted knees, and life shortening CTE.

As others have said it's all subjective, but I don't think any of those statements are as laughable as you said they were.

 

[Dewnior]

In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman - not A grade
Quaynor
Schultz - not A grade
Hill - not consistent A grade
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski - not A grade
McReeery - not A grade
Dean - not even B grade
McGuane - unknown

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

Not sure what you're definition of A grade is but by my count there's only 7.

 

[KermitJagger]

Not sure what you're definition of A grade is but by my count there's only 7.

And I think even that is a very optimistic assessment.

 

[TylerDurden]

Collingwood is going for Gold with an aggressive strategy this season.

Assuming they can get Houston they will be set up for more silverware well into the future. In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman
Quaynor
Schultz
Hill
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski
McReeery
Dean
McGuane

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

A graders??? Lol!!!

In 2 years time all of Moore, JDG, Houston will also be nudging or over 30.
Dean may be delisted.
Plus they've traded their way out of 3 x first rounds of the draft, with Tassie on the horizon!

They're in for a world of pain.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Collingwood is going for Gold with an aggressive strategy this season.

Assuming they can get Houston they will be set up for more silverware well into the future. In two years time, with Pendles, Sidebottom, Mitchell and Howe gone they will still have an incredible base of A graders, albeit with less promising youth than some of the opposition.

Daicos x 2
Houston
Perryman
Quaynor
Schultz
Hill
Moore
DeGoey
Maynard
Lipinski
McReeery
Dean
McGuane

That's 14 genuine All Stars! Scary, huh!

Are you ok?

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Alright I've read the whole chain so I'm going to dial it back to the points you've argued against. Besides the point that no one has really categorically said anything, I've tried to keep it on point.

Hardest to officiate? I think there's a case to be made that it is. You've suggested that NHL refs have it worse but unlike most other sporting codes, their refs are full time and extremely well paid. They can dedicate all their time to it. Aussie Rules umpires are not only part time, but expected to run almost as much as the players and call frees through 360 degree congestion caused by a uniquely large number of players. There's one umpire per 9 players in the AFL, 1 per 6 in the NHL. We also have the challenge of more regular rule and interpretation changes than other sports, which makes officiating more difficult year on year.

I've already made the case for it being one of the most athletic, but in terms of it being brutal I think there's a similar case to be made, but like in an athletic sense the brutality of playing AFL is far more general. It's as injurious from a soft tissue perspective as Soccer, it has hits and tackles enough for concussion to be a massive problem and unlike most other contact sports the pressure isn't mostly frontal. There isn't the same risk on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but it grinds you down. I reckon the AFL has a unique risk in terms of ending your career with a couple of busted knees, and life shortening CTE.

As others have said it's all subjective, but I don't think any of those statements are as laughable as you said they were.

Not disagreeing with any of this. It's your opinion.
My issue is media and coaches saying it is the most difficult sport to play and or officiate which is ignorant in my opinion.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

A graders??? Lol!!!

In 2 years time all of Moore, JDG, Houston will also be nudging or over 30.
Dean may be delisted.
Plus they've traded their way out of 3 x first rounds of the draft, with Tassie on the horizon!

They're in for a world of pain.

They’ve got 1 top 10 pick on their list under the age of 28(Nick D).

Absolutely no star youth coming up alongside Daicos, and more over 30’s than any other list in the comp.

They’ll have done amazingly well with injuries to finish top 8 in 2025.

 

[KermitJagger]

Not disagreeing with any of this. It's your opinion.
My issue is media and coaches saying it is the most difficult sport to play and or officiate which is ignorant in my opinion.

Considering the fact that most AFL coaches are avid consumers of sport in general, and go overseas to learn directly from leaders in other sports, they would be anything but ignorant of the challenges of AFL compared to other sports.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Considering the fact that most AFL coaches are avid consumers of sport in general, and go overseas to learn directly from leaders in other sports, that they would be anything but ignorant of the challenges of AFL compared to other sports.

The reason they go overseas is because they know they are learning from people who have a lot to offer. The US and Europe are world leaders in that space. Same reason AFL players use international facilities or go overseas for advice on injuries.
Notice how you don't see US or European head coaches spending time at AFL clubs during their off season? Not hard to figure out why.