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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
GF umpires thread
- Thread starter LordLucifer
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Re: Merged GF umpire thread
As a general comment the reason umpires like Vozzo and McLaren get up peoples goats is very simple. They try to make too many decisions rather than let the players sort it out. If you pay less decisions like holding the ball chopping the hands real soft etc then people don't notice you. You're better balling it up or letting the play go on. Let the players decide the game. Call the obvious stuff. The extremely obvious calls. Especially in a GF. A few hard hits here and there will not hurt anyone in the long run and makes for a more exciting game.
Because so many calls are made we now get used to a culture where people expect decisions to be made. We should have a culture where calls are the last thing we want and the players decide who wins.
Personally I was astounded when V and McL got the GF. Ryan did a great job because he didn't try to look for a call. He let the calls come to him.
Anyway that's my little vent as a non biased spectator of the game
As a general comment the reason umpires like Vozzo and McLaren get up peoples goats is very simple. They try to make too many decisions rather than let the players sort it out. If you pay less decisions like holding the ball chopping the hands real soft etc then people don't notice you. You're better balling it up or letting the play go on. Let the players decide the game. Call the obvious stuff. The extremely obvious calls. Especially in a GF. A few hard hits here and there will not hurt anyone in the long run and makes for a more exciting game.
Because so many calls are made we now get used to a culture where people expect decisions to be made. We should have a culture where calls are the last thing we want and the players decide who wins.
Personally I was astounded when V and McL got the GF. Ryan did a great job because he didn't try to look for a call. He let the calls come to him.
Anyway that's my little vent as a non biased spectator of the game
- Banned
- #103
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
It's their bloody job to apply the rules of the game! If you don't like it then go watch a game like rugby where you can do that shit!!! Better still, start a petition, lobby to the AFL, write to the rules committee, go on the radio - why not be proactive in changing the written rules if you don't like them, but don't criticise the umpires for doing their job. They have to be strict or else footy will go back to the old days where winning the contest was more reliant on who could push, hold, grapple or punch the most. This is a game of SKILL, not thuggery!
Let the players sort it out... what the hell does this mean anyway???
It's their bloody job to apply the rules of the game! If you don't like it then go watch a game like rugby where you can do that shit!!! Better still, start a petition, lobby to the AFL, write to the rules committee, go on the radio - why not be proactive in changing the written rules if you don't like them, but don't criticise the umpires for doing their job. They have to be strict or else footy will go back to the old days where winning the contest was more reliant on who could push, hold, grapple or punch the most. This is a game of SKILL, not thuggery!
Let the players sort it out... what the hell does this mean anyway???
kirbycarlisle
Senior List
Re: The Hawks Are Being 'Ripped Off By The Umps
Yeah it's a shame we couldn't have backtracked 20 years there so Mitchell copped a big squareup for a thug tackle.
Yeah it's a shame we couldn't have backtracked 20 years there so Mitchell copped a big squareup for a thug tackle.
kirbycarlisle
Senior List
kirbycarlisle
Senior List
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
Just goes to show, they don't seem to have a clue like you. I'm with you Borgsta.
Just goes to show, they don't seem to have a clue like you. I'm with you Borgsta.
- Mar 15, 2006
- 8,419
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- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
I agree with your main idea, that the umpires need to apply the rules. It makes for a better game when the rules are followed.
The complaints in this thread aren't of a generalised "stop paying free kicks" nature though, it is more direct criticism of the interpretations being made on the weekend and how the rules were being applied.
If an umpire is making mistakes like the downfield free, then he isn't applying the rules, is he? That goes beyond mere difference in interpretation, that is a flat out case of not knowing the rules, or not having any idea what is happening under your nose, one of the two*. I'd call it incompetent myself.
*The other option being they knew what they were doing, and meant it. I don't believe the umpires are corrupt though, so I discount this.
I agree with your main idea, that the umpires need to apply the rules. It makes for a better game when the rules are followed.
The complaints in this thread aren't of a generalised "stop paying free kicks" nature though, it is more direct criticism of the interpretations being made on the weekend and how the rules were being applied.
If an umpire is making mistakes like the downfield free, then he isn't applying the rules, is he? That goes beyond mere difference in interpretation, that is a flat out case of not knowing the rules, or not having any idea what is happening under your nose, one of the two*. I'd call it incompetent myself.
*The other option being they knew what they were doing, and meant it. I don't believe the umpires are corrupt though, so I discount this.
- Banned
- #108
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
Yeah. There are two issues. The first is what you described - and I agree that there were some bad mistakes during the GF, and there's no issue with people whingeing about the standard of mistakes at particular times, I certainly do it too.
The other issue is what I was responding directly to Moose54 about - his opinion (which seems to be the general consensus among the resident bogan population) is that the umpires should be very 'lenient' in terms of application of the rules. Quote: "They try to make too many decisions rather than let the players sort it out. If you pay less decisions like holding the ball chopping the hands real soft etc then people don't notice you." This relates to how the umpires and AFL should approach the way players are penalised, and I completely disagree, for the reasons outlined in my original response.
It's also a complete disregard for the laws of the game, and it's a disregard for the idea behind being strict - the intention of strict application of the rules is to encourage players to win the ball through superior skill, determination and teamwork. One of the reasons I love AFL is because to me it's a perfect synergy of agility, speed, strength, power, skill, instinct, teamwork and courage. Taking the easy option and pushing in the back, chopping arms, holding, head-high bumps and other infringements undermines the intention of the rules.
It's just not Football.
Yeah. There are two issues. The first is what you described - and I agree that there were some bad mistakes during the GF, and there's no issue with people whingeing about the standard of mistakes at particular times, I certainly do it too
.The other issue is what I was responding directly to Moose54 about - his opinion (which seems to be the general consensus among the resident bogan population) is that the umpires should be very 'lenient' in terms of application of the rules. Quote: "They try to make too many decisions rather than let the players sort it out. If you pay less decisions like holding the ball chopping the hands real soft etc then people don't notice you." This relates to how the umpires and AFL should approach the way players are penalised, and I completely disagree, for the reasons outlined in my original response.
It's also a complete disregard for the laws of the game, and it's a disregard for the idea behind being strict - the intention of strict application of the rules is to encourage players to win the ball through superior skill, determination and teamwork. One of the reasons I love AFL is because to me it's a perfect synergy of agility, speed, strength, power, skill, instinct, teamwork and courage. Taking the easy option and pushing in the back, chopping arms, holding, head-high bumps and other infringements undermines the intention of the rules.
It's just not Football.
- Mar 15, 2006
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- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
I've just watched the game for the 4th time, this time with the sole focus on the umps.
Harley's 50m penalty against Ladson wasn't soft. It was there. The push was applied after the mark. This gets paid every day of the week.
The double 50 against Bateman wasn't. It was a single 50 against Bateman that was dubious. The tackle that brought Ablett to ground was in the contest, the 'spill' of the ball was Ablett's doing. HOWEVER. The second 50 was Brent Guerra against Stevie Johnson for high contact. That would've been downfield, so the result still would have been a goal.
Without my brown and gold goggles on, I thought the umpiring was so-so. A couple of things missed here and there and, as always, consistency in application was a problem. I was impressed by the umpires not getting sucked in to Hawthorn's and Geelong's theatrics. Chance Bateman tried it on a couple of times (disappointed in him actually), Stokes was a culprit too. The big one they fell for was Franklin/Scarlett. That one was disgraceful.
The speed of the game is probably the biggest challenge going forward. This point was highlighted by the commentators who had the benefit of slo-mo. Extra umpires won't solve the problem. Video umpiring would be a disaster to the thrill of our game. Not sure where the answer is on this.
Whoever made the comment about letting the decisions come to the umpire, rather than them looking for something is absolutely spot on.
Hawthorn's style of play doesn't endear them to umpires but at least they are learning and adapting to that god-awful 'unsociable' tag. We supporters should take a leaf out of their book and adapt as well. Our whining doesn't endear us to opposition supporters. Going forward, we need to take the emotion out and study the game from all three sides.
And yep. Done and dusted.
I've just watched the game for the 4th time, this time with the sole focus on the umps.
Harley's 50m penalty against Ladson wasn't soft. It was there. The push was applied after the mark. This gets paid every day of the week.
The double 50 against Bateman wasn't. It was a single 50 against Bateman that was dubious. The tackle that brought Ablett to ground was in the contest, the 'spill' of the ball was Ablett's doing. HOWEVER. The second 50 was Brent Guerra against Stevie Johnson for high contact. That would've been downfield, so the result still would have been a goal.
Without my brown and gold goggles on, I thought the umpiring was so-so. A couple of things missed here and there and, as always, consistency in application was a problem. I was impressed by the umpires not getting sucked in to Hawthorn's and Geelong's theatrics. Chance Bateman tried it on a couple of times (disappointed in him actually), Stokes was a culprit too. The big one they fell for was Franklin/Scarlett. That one was disgraceful.
The speed of the game is probably the biggest challenge going forward. This point was highlighted by the commentators who had the benefit of slo-mo. Extra umpires won't solve the problem. Video umpiring would be a disaster to the thrill of our game. Not sure where the answer is on this.
Whoever made the comment about letting the decisions come to the umpire, rather than them looking for something is absolutely spot on.
Hawthorn's style of play doesn't endear them to umpires but at least they are learning and adapting to that god-awful 'unsociable' tag. We supporters should take a leaf out of their book and adapt as well. Our whining doesn't endear us to opposition supporters. Going forward, we need to take the emotion out and study the game from all three sides.
And yep. Done and dusted.
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
Not that it matters now, because the flag is the sweetest way to deal with ordinary umpiring, but one of the Campbell Brown incidents was a strange one. He took the mark, and then played on and kicked the goal. Was told to go behind his mark (no issue with that) and proceeded to miss it. The very next quarter, one of the Geelong players took a mark near the goals (pretty sure it was Mooney), the umpire called time off, ran in to mark the mark and Mooney played on and passed it to a player in a better spot. The umpire didn't call it back. It caused a fair few beers to almost be thrown at the telly at our BBQ. It's exactly the lack of consistency that we are talking about.
Our style of play should have no bearing on how they umpire. It is plain wrong to pre-judge a team before a game and each free kick should be given on it's merits. Free kicks do not have carry-over points like suspensions and umpires should realise that.
Not that it matters now, because the flag is the sweetest way to deal with ordinary umpiring, but one of the Campbell Brown incidents was a strange one. He took the mark, and then played on and kicked the goal. Was told to go behind his mark (no issue with that) and proceeded to miss it. The very next quarter, one of the Geelong players took a mark near the goals (pretty sure it was Mooney), the umpire called time off, ran in to mark the mark and Mooney played on and passed it to a player in a better spot. The umpire didn't call it back. It caused a fair few beers to almost be thrown at the telly at our BBQ. It's exactly the lack of consistency that we are talking about.
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
You make some valid points. The free against Roughead was a disgraceful decision too
You make some valid points. The free against Roughead was a disgraceful decision too
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
I referee basketball at a high level in this country so have a good understanding of officiating. My house mate umpires footy at a high level too of which we’ve had many a discussion about. Bball has a ton more rules than footy so I know all about implement rules. My views are not from going back to the old bogan punch up style of footy. I think you miss understood my post. I'm not saying to stop implementing rules, that must be done and as a whole the umps do a good job. You notice them less when they make the good decisions. I just believe at the AFL level they make a lot of decisions on 50/50 calls. Ones where you could let it go or not call it, and either could be judged as correct. In those situations I believe the whistle should be put away and let the players make the decision.
"Whoever made the comment about letting the decisions come to the umpire, rather than them looking for something is absolutely spot on." Thanks TwentyTwo sounds like you understood what I'm on about.
"Let the players sort it out... what the hell does this mean anyway???"….Don't make a decision on the 50/50 calls. Let the players play for the ball and they their actions will decide who wins the footy, not the umps whistle. The game is about the players not about the umps.
I referee basketball at a high level in this country so have a good understanding of officiating. My house mate umpires footy at a high level too of which we’ve had many a discussion about. Bball has a ton more rules than footy so I know all about implement rules. My views are not from going back to the old bogan punch up style of footy. I think you miss understood my post. I'm not saying to stop implementing rules, that must be done and as a whole the umps do a good job. You notice them less when they make the good decisions. I just believe at the AFL level they make a lot of decisions on 50/50 calls. Ones where you could let it go or not call it, and either could be judged as correct. In those situations I believe the whistle should be put away and let the players make the decision.
"Whoever made the comment about letting the decisions come to the umpire, rather than them looking for something is absolutely spot on." Thanks TwentyTwo sounds like you understood what I'm on about.
"Let the players sort it out... what the hell does this mean anyway???"….Don't make a decision on the 50/50 calls. Let the players play for the ball and they their actions will decide who wins the footy, not the umps whistle. The game is about the players not about the umps.
- Banned
- #115
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
Well I reckon there'd be far more errors if they let 50/50s go than if they blew the whistle.
I personally find it way more frustrating when the whistle isn't blown for frees that are there, than when the whistle is blown but shouldn't be. Refs who let infringements go, who don't have the balls to make calls that players/spectators perceive are 50/50, shouldn't be on the field at all.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it really did seem like you were talking about a toning-down of the rules for the sake of a different style of game, rather than just talking about the mistakes that are made.
What does 'real soft' mean? To me that seems like you're saying the infringement IS there, but shouldn't be paid because it's 'minor'. To me - and this is what I was trying to point out - an infringement should be penalised because it's a RULE, and people forget that even small pushes in the back, holding etc actually affect the oppositions ability to win the contest a LOT. It's CHEATING.
I just can't agree with your solution re: mistakes. We need to empower umpires to have confidence in their decision making - whilst also getting decisions right of course - rather than encourage them to lower their tolerance to transgressions because of a fear that it will be the wrong call.
IMO, a better solution would be full-time professional umpires with increased salary, better recruitment, better training, more accountability for dodgy umps, and a more public review system on a game-by-game basis. Perhaps a web-site where each game is assessed by an independent panel, and breakdown of controversial decisions with an accompanying analysis would help.
Well I reckon there'd be far more errors if they let 50/50s go than if they blew the whistle.
I personally find it way more frustrating when the whistle isn't blown for frees that are there, than when the whistle is blown but shouldn't be. Refs who let infringements go, who don't have the balls to make calls that players/spectators perceive are 50/50, shouldn't be on the field at all.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it really did seem like you were talking about a toning-down of the rules for the sake of a different style of game, rather than just talking about the mistakes that are made.
What does 'real soft' mean? To me that seems like you're saying the infringement IS there, but shouldn't be paid because it's 'minor'. To me - and this is what I was trying to point out - an infringement should be penalised because it's a RULE, and people forget that even small pushes in the back, holding etc actually affect the oppositions ability to win the contest a LOT. It's CHEATING.
I just can't agree with your solution re: mistakes. We need to empower umpires to have confidence in their decision making - whilst also getting decisions right of course - rather than encourage them to lower their tolerance to transgressions because of a fear that it will be the wrong call.
IMO, a better solution would be full-time professional umpires with increased salary, better recruitment, better training, more accountability for dodgy umps, and a more public review system on a game-by-game basis. Perhaps a web-site where each game is assessed by an independent panel, and breakdown of controversial decisions with an accompanying analysis would help.
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
Okay as an example one they pay inconsistently is holding the ball. In some instances the amount of opportunity to get rid of it varies a lot. Some times a player picks up a ball gets tackled almost instantly and they get pinned. Other times they bump into two or three players before getting tackled and don't get pinned. Every time you need to make a holding the ball call you have to question if he had prior opportunity. In some instances you could go either way. It seems that when on this fence some umpires pay it and some do not. There needs to be a consistent decision mind set that if there is doubt in the mind then either pay it or not. Just pick one of the options but all the umpires need to think the same way. In my opinion if there is any doubt then the best option is a ball up. Don’t penalise one side over the other if there is any doubt at all. (hope that makes sense).
One thing the NBA referees do as part of their training could help the AFL guys. Every night some one sits down and gets all the calls made that were not 100% clear cut and compiles them a video survey. Each referee, if it was their game or not, then sits down and independently replies with what they would call (every day of the season). The results are then distributed to everyone for review so you can see how the other refs and calling the game. No reason something like this could not be done with the AFL gents on a weekly basis. The AFL gents get a review video at the start of the year showing how they are going to call the game. They also review their own games but the collaboration of data would help, keep people on the same page.
Okay think I’ve had enough of this topic…
Okay as an example one they pay inconsistently is holding the ball. In some instances the amount of opportunity to get rid of it varies a lot. Some times a player picks up a ball gets tackled almost instantly and they get pinned. Other times they bump into two or three players before getting tackled and don't get pinned. Every time you need to make a holding the ball call you have to question if he had prior opportunity. In some instances you could go either way. It seems that when on this fence some umpires pay it and some do not. There needs to be a consistent decision mind set that if there is doubt in the mind then either pay it or not. Just pick one of the options but all the umpires need to think the same way. In my opinion if there is any doubt then the best option is a ball up. Don’t penalise one side over the other if there is any doubt at all. (hope that makes sense).
One thing the NBA referees do as part of their training could help the AFL guys. Every night some one sits down and gets all the calls made that were not 100% clear cut and compiles them a video survey. Each referee, if it was their game or not, then sits down and independently replies with what they would call (every day of the season). The results are then distributed to everyone for review so you can see how the other refs and calling the game. No reason something like this could not be done with the AFL gents on a weekly basis. The AFL gents get a review video at the start of the year showing how they are going to call the game. They also review their own games but the collaboration of data would help, keep people on the same page.
Okay think I’ve had enough of this topic…
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
We're all in to statistics for the players but there are none, it seems, for the umpires. Yet they often have a significant influence on games.
How hard would it be for the media to keep and publish a quarter by quarter statistical record of frees given for and against, and by location, by the umpires?
This would serve to:
1. Help umpires and the umpiring panel fully evaluate their performance
2. Serve to identify patterns
3. Increase the perception of accountability and fairness in the game especially in a sport on which so much money is gambled.
We're all in to statistics for the players but there are none, it seems, for the umpires. Yet they often have a significant influence on games.
How hard would it be for the media to keep and publish a quarter by quarter statistical record of frees given for and against, and by location, by the umpires?
This would serve to:
1. Help umpires and the umpiring panel fully evaluate their performance
2. Serve to identify patterns
3. Increase the perception of accountability and fairness in the game especially in a sport on which so much money is gambled.
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
All I can say is at least the game was allowed to progress much more freely.
All I can say is at least the game was allowed to progress much more freely.
Matt Slade
Team Captain
Re: The Hawks Are Being 'Ripped Off By The Umps
Hellooooo, not sure which game you were watching, Geelong were actually getting alot of free kicks that aren't suppose to be!
Hellooooo, not sure which game you were watching, Geelong were actually getting alot of free kicks that aren't suppose to be!
Matt Slade
Team Captain
Re: Merged GF umpire thread
You don't seem to understand, sure the Hawks won as they were the better team on the day but the umpires, particularly McLaren, deserve to be criticised as they nearly robbed the Hawks of a flag.
You don't seem to understand, sure the Hawks won as they were the better team on the day but the umpires, particularly McLaren, deserve to be criticised as they nearly robbed the Hawks of a flag.
Re: The Hawks Are Being 'Ripped Off By The Umps
we really need to know what that decission prosses is. Because it must be changed
we really need to know what that decission prosses is. Because it must be changed
It's funny, I said the exact same thing while watching the game and got the the obligatory "ohh, ahh, someones a bit stroppy" remarks. Good to know I wasn't just being biased (well... completely biased
)
