Unsolved Girls that went missing from Adelaide Oval 1973

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Angry Red Bull said:
I don't dismiss it at all. But the two need to reconcile. SL says she's certain it's Brown even though she saw them across the river and reported years later.Kilmartin says the person most looks like Hart even though he was major contributor to the identakit (when SL wasn't) and watched the whole abduction unfold closely (because he was fixated on Joanne from teen attraction).The two can't both be correct. The recent under investigation doco identified the two but used facial recognition software on the identakit and it matched Brown at 1,3, 4, Hart not identified close at all even though there are similarities between them. SL can't have been certain if she saw the people from across the river. It disturbs me she said she was. Hart has associate connections and grandson confession letter. Brown lived in QLD and his only connection is SL identifying him with certainty now disputed by the person most responsible for the identification in the first place. Are they both being affected by confirmation bias.....Kilmartin hearing all the stories connecting Hart and SL identifying Brown from his Mackay sisters murder video then knowing he meets the offending profile. I think it's possible. What identification has most veracity? This might seem strange but between the two I lean to Hart now because there should at least be some doubt with what SL saw across the river and she discounts that entirely even though she had to be 30-40 metres away. I think they BOTH saw the abduction but one or both are influenced by confirmation bias to be persuaded to a conclusion on who the identakit actually was. So his testimony aids that SL saw the man but we remain in dispute now as to who it actually was. Throw in the third guy Radan who was visited by SAPOL in QLD jail prior to his death. He was 27 at time of BC and 34 at time of AO.

Having seen an image of Radan his likeness to identakit image is at least as close as Brown in my opinion. He volunteered for permanent detention in 84 upon being convicted for 12 years but has never been released
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So youre suggesting whoever did it walked out of AO, turned left as described by Kilmartin, walked a kilomotor or 2 along the Torrens to Frome Rd where Lawrie saw them and then did a 180 and headed straight back past where he'd committed the abduction by which time people would be looking or exiting the ground, and on to Thebarton?
 

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PenfoldsFan said:
So youre suggesting whoever did it walked out of AO, turned left as described by Kilmartin, walked a kilomotor or 2 along the Torrens to Frome Rd where Lawrie saw them and then did a 180 and headed straight back past where he'd committed the abduction by which time people would be looking or exiting the ground, and on to Thebarton?
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Look I don't know geography/maps of Adelaide. There are a number of bridges..No? Perhaps he crossed one and cut through to where he was ultimately seen missing the ground. Yes I'm saying something delayed him significantly other than the girls fighting him and yes I believe he doubled back after a failed rendezvous. Makes sense as theory. It took 90 minutes to go 3klm. Something happened. I believe there was a ring and a scheduled rendezvous which was abandoned. He perhaps waited for 10 minutes before realizing they weren't coming.

Look at it objectively. Guy sitting with family is an associate ...Bone. Smythe (another associate) had his kids playing with J & K.. Hart never missed a game but he wasn't to be seen because he was in a van. Radan I understand looks exactly like Identakit. IF there was a ring and there obviously was then makes perfect sense to have a collection point. They just didn't expect there to be two girls imo.
 
I thought he was initially heading north from the gate behind the scoreboard?
I remember some talk about walking through the cars that were parked under the fig trees there.

From there, the best route if you wanted to not be seen would have been heading west towards the golf course and walking through there to a car parked around Strangways Tce.

Heading east towards Frome and the Zoo would be very risky, although once you get to the path along the river, there would be some cover whether you head East or West.
 
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charles8 said:
Th

How can it be at the end of the final quarter when Frank Bones refused to help look for the kids because he stayed watching the game. At the end of the final quarter everyone would be rushing out not making it easy to see
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I just read that it was near the end of the third quarter..
 

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I was shocked when channel seven announced the new POI. Even more surprised, Police had travelled to QLD to meet with him. (2019)
I honestly thought the case was dead in the water.

But its good they are pursuing viable leads and listening to new information that comes in.

Having police still chasing lines of enquiry after fifty years, gives us hope that it will be solved one day.
 
Angry Red Bull said:
Look I don't know geography/maps of Adelaide. There are a number of bridges..No? Perhaps he crossed one and cut through to where he was ultimately seen missing the ground. Yes I'm saying something delayed him significantly other than the girls fighting him and yes I believe he doubled back after a failed rendezvous. Makes sense as theory. It took 90 minutes to go 3klm. Something happened. I believe there was a ring and a scheduled rendezvous which was abandoned. He perhaps waited for 10 minutes before realizing they weren't coming.

Look at it objectively. Guy sitting with family is an associate ...Bone. Smythe (another associate) had his kids playing with J & K.. Hart never missed a game but he wasn't to be seen because he was in a van. Radan I understand looks exactly like Identakit. IF there was a ring and there obviously was then makes perfect sense to have a collection point. They just didn't expect there to be two girls imo.
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Its 90 minutes if you accept the Port Rd sighting as legitimate as thats the last reported time.
If its incorrect then the 90 minutes means nothing.

The only bridges over the Torrens in that area in those days we're Frome Rd, the Uni footbridge, King William St, Morphett st and the weir.
To get back to Port Rd from the first 3 would require the abductor to pass back along the Torrens which by that time would have people crossing back to the city at King William and Morphett from the game.
To cross at Morphett or the weir brings you back past the oval where he exited or on the Northern side, either way risky.
The only other route would be back through the city via North tce or Rundle/Hindley.
So they leave their parents/carer at 3.45pm, go to the toilet, are seen playing with a cat, get approached, seen by Kilmartin heading East with an unknown man who looks like Hart, head down to the Torrens and under the King William st bridge, down to Frome Rd where Lawrie see's them, this takes what, 30-45 minutes?
He then gets told were not taking 2 kids and having gone this far, doesnt argue the point, he simply shrugs his shoulders and with Kirste still under his arm and Joanne protesting, decides to backtrack past the scene of the crime and on to Port rd Thebarton in under an hour.
And all that just to fit in with the Port rd sighting.
It makes no sense at all.
If you we're going to risk getting caught going back past you might aswell have left the girls at Frome rd and jumped in the getaway car, or come to mention it, why didnt the person in the getaway car take one of the kids as arranged if thats the plan and leave one with the abductor?
 
PenfoldsFan said:
Its 90 minutes if you accept the Port Rd sighting as legitimate as thats the last reported time.
If its incorrect then the 90 minutes means nothing.

The only bridges over the Torrens in that area in those days we're Frome Rd, the Uni footbridge, King William St, Morphett st and the weir.
To get back to Port Rd from the first 3 would require the abductor to pass back along the Torrens which by that time would have people crossing back to the city at King William and Morphett from the game.
To cross at Morphett or the weir brings you back past the oval where he exited or on the Northern side, either way risky.
The only other route would be back through the city via North tce or Rundle/Hindley.
So they leave their parents/carer at 3.45pm, go to the toilet, are seen playing with a cat, get approached, seen by Kilmartin heading East with an unknown man who looks like Hart, head down to the Torrens and under the King William st bridge, down to Frome Rd where Lawrie see's them, this takes what, 30-45 minutes?
He then gets told were not taking 2 kids and having gone this far, doesnt argue the point, he simply shrugs his shoulders and with Kirste still under his arm and Joanne protesting, decides to backtrack past the scene of the crime and on to Port rd Thebarton in under an hour.
And all that just to fit in with the Port rd sighting.
It makes no sense at all.
If you we're going to risk getting caught going back past you might aswell have left the girls at Frome rd and jumped in the getaway car, or come to mention it, why didnt the person in the getaway car take one of the kids as arranged if thats the plan and leave one with the abductor?
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You presuppose that they had a conversation? I don't. Rather I suspect they met up earlier when Bone went missing for 30 mins and decided to go ahead with one and meet at a certain time. When he took too long because of Joanne they drove off before they met up. He waits and then realizes they're not coming. He crosses the river at one of those two bridges you mention and meanders back to where he was sighted in opposite direction then much later to collect his own car then being his only means of escape

To say it's unrelated you have to have another person with a hat carrying a child under one arm and fighting the older girl. Odds of that being unrelated are remote.

You don't think it makes sense. It does. It is also massively risky. Then again abducting two is clear sign the person is sociopathic so was totally risk averse to extreme. He wouldn't abide normal steps. It is a viable theory.

Importantly it aligns all witness accounts and explains the timeline. Kilmartin saying they went left. SL saying what she saw abd was certain. The guy in car at Thebarton anguish he didn't intervene.
 
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Angry Red Bull said:
You presuppose that they had a conversation? I don't. Rather I suspect they met up earlier when Bone went missing for 30 mins and decided to go ahead with one and meet at a certain time. When he took too long because of Joanne they drove off before they met up. He waits and then realizes they're not coming. He crosses the river at one of those two bridges you mention and meanders back to where he was sighted in opposite direction then much later to collect his own car then being his only means of escape

To say it's unrelated you have to have another person with a hat carrying a child under one arm and fighting the older girl. Odds of that being unrelated are remote.

You don't think it makes sense. It does. It is also massively risky. Then again abducting two is clear sign the person is sociopathic so was totally risk averse to extreme. He wouldn't abide normal steps. It is a viable theory
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It would likely be quicker if they did have the conversation...
'Hey, we said one kid, not 2, on your way'
V's
I've abducted 2 kids and carried/dragged them a kilometer or 2, a fair effort, I really should just do a 180 and head in the opposite direction now as theres no one here to meet me but I'll wait at least a few minutes for my pickup just in case all this is worth it.
Im all for alternative scenario's but you have to play them out in your own mind to see how it fits and suggesting a perp abducts 2 kids, struggles with them for the best part of half an hour only to do a complete 180 having waited at the rendezvous point for less time than it takes to have a 20 second conversation is a stretch.

Again, it makes no sense at all.
 
PenfoldsFan said:
It would likely be quicker if they did have the conversation...
'Hey, we said one kid, not 2, on your way'
V's
I've abducted 2 kids and carried/dragged them a kilometer or 2, a fair effort, I really should just do a 180 and head in the opposite direction now as theres no one here to meet me but I'll wait at least a few minutes for my pickup just in case all this is worth it.
Im all for alternative scenario's but you have to play them out in your own mind to see how it fits and suggesting a perp abducts 2 kids, struggles with them for the best part of half an hour only to do a complete 180 having waited at the rendezvous point for less time than it takes to have a 20 second conversation is a stretch.

Again, it makes no sense at all.
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It doesn't make sense to you because you are normal with normal fear of apprehension. He exhibits sociopathic behaviours and his responses aren't normal. He doesn't fear apprehension. Rather he is single focused on Kirstie and having started he won't stop. If it were Brown in the case of Mackay sisters he drove into a service station with the girls in car and filled the tank without concern either. Not normal. Sociopathic yes.
 
Ok, lets try physics.
The average 30-40yr old walks at 4.5km hr.
The distance from Adelaide Oval to Frome Rd at the Zoo and back to Port Rd Thebarton is approximately 5km.
It should take 1hr6m to do that trip by foot, now consider you're carrying a 4yo child and have an 11yr old pulling at and kicking you in protest, never mind any conversations or wait time however brief.

He had 90 minutes from when they left their seats until the supposed sighting in Port Rd...
There just isnt enough time for all 3 to be right, so when 2 align and 1 cant, you have to bend time to make it work.
 
PenfoldsFan said:
Ok, lets try physics.
The average 30-40yr old walks at 4.5km hr.
The distance from Adelaide Oval to Frome Rd at the Zoo and back to Port Rd Thebarton is approximately 5km.
It should take 1hr6m to do that trip by foot, now consider you're carrying a 4yo child and have an 11yr old pulling at and kicking you in protest, never mind any conversations or wait time however brief.

He had 90 minutes from when they left their seats until the supposed sighting in Port Rd...
There just isnt enough time for all 3 to be right, so when 2 align and 1 cant, you have to bend time to make it work.
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So normal walk would be 1 hr. But he would be pushing to go as fast as he could to get away. He is hindered by Joanne and extra dead weight of 15kg... fatigue is a factor for both him and Joanne. I suspect that Joanne would hit (which wouldn't slow him) then revert to pulling at times and at times just chasing behind. Likely that the desire to go faster cancelled out Joanne intermittent resistance. He perhaps waited at rendezvous for 10 min. So 1 hr for walk plus 10 min plus extra 20 min fatigue resistance. You just proved it possible at 90 minutes

This tells us he was quite fit. A person hiking with a full backpack can cover about 3.2 klm rather than 4-5
 
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Here's two routes, in opposite directions, to secluded places that could have been where a car was waiting.

Heading east and meeting a car somewhere behind the zoo, using the path along the river as cover.

1693284139616.png


Heading west and meeting a car somewhere in the secluded horse trails north of Bonython Park.

1693284313968.png

Both make use of the river path as cover and both end up at places that are still to this day quite secluded.
Both only take 20mins or so by foot. Could have been gone before any alarm was raised.

The second one makes more sense to me, especially if they were able to cut across the golf course, as it avoids the most 'active' areas.

Technically, it would be possible to head one way, change the plan, then head the other way. Still mighty risky given where all this is happening.
 
Angry Red Bull said:
So normal walk would be 1 hr. But he would be pushing to go as fast as he could to get away. He is hindered by Joanne and extra dead weight of 15kg... fatigue is a factor for both him and Joanne. I suspect that Joanne would hit (which wouldn't slow him) then revert to pulling at times. Likely that the desire to go faster cancelled out Joanne intermittent resistance. He perhaps waited at rendezvous for 10 min. So 1 hr for walk plus 10 min plus extra 20 min fatigue resistance. You just proved it possible at 90 minutes

This tells us he was quite fit
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No, normal walk would be 1hr6m as I said, you cant go quicker carrying a child with another fighting you for 5km and keep up that pace, never mind how his stoop effected his ability to move.

So you've got 90 minutes and 66 is gone unimpeded, lets slow him down even .5k, thats 75 minutes from 90, leaving 15 minutes for them to leave their seats, walk down out of the stands, go to the toilet, play with the cat and a convo or wait time however brief at the rendezvous point. And he makes that 75 minute walk without another stop despite the weight he's carrying.

C'mon mate, its not possible.
 
bomberclifford said:
Here's two routes, in opposite directions, to secluded places that could have been where a car was waiting.

Heading east and meeting a car somewhere behind the zoo, using the path along the river as cover.

View attachment 1789314


Heading west and meeting a car somewhere in the secluded horse trails north of Bonython Park.





Both make use of the river path as cover and both end up at places that are still to this day quite secluded.
Both only take 20mins or so by foot. Could have been gone before any alarm was raised.

The second one makes more sense to me, especially if they were able to cut across the golf course, as it avoids the most 'active' areas.

Technically, it would be possible to head one way, change the plan, then head the other way. Still mighty risky given where all this is happening.
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But option 2 ignores Kilmartin saying he went East and Lawrie saying he made Frome Rd which is also East.
And how can AO to the zoo take the same time as the zoo to Port rd Thebarton when its basically the same to AO plus extra to Port rd. Its a 5km round trip direct and you haven't even got them to Port rd on your maps.
 
Many have disputed either SL or the man in car sighting. But now we have Kilmartin saying they turned left. That is SL direction yet the Bonython. Park sighting has always been considered credible.

You can go at 3.2klm ph with a full backpack apparently. On the 5klm trip that equates to time of 93min. I suspect he waited for a time and I also suspect he was pushing as hard as he could and there is witness accounts where it was said Joanne continued to chase after him (so wasn't constantly pulling as at the start). I think it's possible. It wasn't the plan but is possible. Could a 60 yo do it? A very fit one maybe but more likely a 33 yo which was Radan's age

Here is the thing. If there was a ring and I'm definitely leaning that way now with all associate connections then you would use the fittest to do the abduction.
 
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Unsolved Girls that went missing from Adelaide Oval 1973

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