The most depressing thing is the gap between Melbourne's midfield and ours. Forget our aging, slow mids. just look at ruck - the have Gawn and ALSO Jackson, who played a cracker at a very young age. So, we are a long way from matching them ( and so a flag), even though we did it for 3 quarters in round 23.
AFL Grand Final Grand Final 2021 - Melbourne vs Western Bulldogs - Sat, Sept 25 - 5:15pm AWST / 7:15pm AEST
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We didn't really match it for 3 quarters, it was closer to 2...
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I would argue the entire list, not just the mid-field. I can't find it now, but I read either at News Corp or NineMedia (ex-Fairfax) an article that summed up just how young this side is. So only injury, or the allure of money over more glory would/should prevent multiple flags by this group.
Our 2022 needs to be a year of playing more kids, to see who's worth keeping, the hunt for more kids, and the hunt for a new coach. Time for rebuild is well and duly overdue, bring it on.
Nice to see Trav Varcoe's 2011 4th quarter goal get recognised on the main board 
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Better example- Essendon 2000 was one of the most dominant seasons but nothing after that.
MELBOURNE 4.5 5.9 12.11 21.14 (140)
WESTERN BULLDOGS 1.2 7.5 9.5 10.6 (66)
BEST
Melbourne: Petracca, Fritsch, Oliver, Brayshaw, Salem, Gawn, Jackson
Petracca - P2 2014
Fritsch - P31 2017
Oliver - P4 2015
Brayshaw - P3 2014
Salem - P9 2013
Gawn - P34 2009
Jackson - P3 2019
And you can add the acquisition of Lever (P10 2017 and their R1 2018, with some later pick swaps) and May* (P6 2018) to that list of 'earlies' as well.
Not half as surprising as some might lead you to believe that this team ultimately got its act together, really. Only real surprise is that it has taken this long for a team (any team) that was that bad to eventually become good.
And the idea that we're easily replicating that with some sort of 'rebuild' (whatever form it might take) is seriously delusional for mine. Would be years of desolation to generate anything like the picks they enjoyed over their era of irrelevance.
* Plus Kade Kolo
WESTERN BULLDOGS 1.2 7.5 9.5 10.6 (66)
BEST
Melbourne: Petracca, Fritsch, Oliver, Brayshaw, Salem, Gawn, Jackson
Petracca - P2 2014
Fritsch - P31 2017
Oliver - P4 2015
Brayshaw - P3 2014
Salem - P9 2013
Gawn - P34 2009
Jackson - P3 2019
And you can add the acquisition of Lever (P10 2017 and their R1 2018, with some later pick swaps) and May* (P6 2018) to that list of 'earlies' as well.
Not half as surprising as some might lead you to believe that this team ultimately got its act together, really. Only real surprise is that it has taken this long for a team (any team) that was that bad to eventually become good.
And the idea that we're easily replicating that with some sort of 'rebuild' (whatever form it might take) is seriously delusional for mine. Would be years of desolation to generate anything like the picks they enjoyed over their era of irrelevance.
* Plus Kade Kolo
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Would it though? That's five top 10 picks they have looking at that list. Our current list has four - Rohan, Selwood, Dangerfield, and Henderson. We had Cockatoo as well before offloading him to Brisbane. People always focus - or more accurately, obsess - about the early picks, but explain how Fritsch and Gawn work. They're just as important. To me it's just as much about consistently nailing some good second and third round picks as well. That's what builds the core. For sure some good early picks are great but I still think they're not absolutely essential.
Vdubs
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Exactly. We have never tanked or bottomed out, so those sorts of picks are just not coming our way.
Nevertheless, they have got it together
Rohan never came to us as anything like a first-round pick. Had already proven to be worth far less than that, which is what we paid for him.
Selwood and Dangerfield both 'qualify', I agree. But are totally at the wrong end of their careers now to be considered in the same conversation as the likes of Petracca and Oliver. And Hendo was an earlyish pick, both first up and subsequently in coming to us. Cockatoo was top 10, just. But we'll never know what he could have been, given that his body never held up to the rigours of footy.
Aa for the others you raise, Gawn works like several other rucks have. Drafting rucks would have to be just about the most inexact science out there. For every Nic Nat, there's been a Dean Cox. Max worked for the Dees in the end, but he was a seriously long time coming as an elite player. Fritsch has been excellent this year but didn't amount to a great deal prior to that. He's a great finisher but has profited greatly from a system that now gets him the ball quick and clean on numerous occasions. Just as we saw in the latter stages of the GF.
In the end, I stand by the fact that their engine room is powered by three players taken inside the top 5 and their back line is anchored by two players notionally taken inside the top 10. They are numbers we could only dream of having available to us from here, even if we decide to languish for years at the wrong end of the ladder. And as the science of drafting gets better and better, the idea that you're going to build a significant group of stand-out players from picks in the 20's and 30's is receding fast in my view.
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That's the difference though. I don't think you need to build a group of stand out players, I think you need to build the core of a team. Not 3-4 superstars, but 10-12 very good players. Richmond are the perfect example. Up until the Qualifying final of 2017 their list was looked at with contempt by plenty (including 99% of this board). That they had only four good players was a view shared by plenty. And it wasn't like they suddenly developed superstars on every line, they didn't. But they had good to very players everywhere.
I still think moaning about access to picks is just giving yourself an excuse in advance. Geelong showed the entire competition how to build a powerhouse with minimal top picks and an excellent core. I've never yet received an answer on why that is now impossible.
cats_09
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AFLCA GF votes:
VOTES PLAYER (CLUB)
10 - Christian Petracca (MELB)
8 - Bayley Fritsch (MELB)
5 - Clayton Oliver (MELB)
3 - Caleb Daniel (WB)
2 - Christian Salem (MELB)
1 - Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
1 - Angus Brayshaw (MELB)
Final totals (those in double figures)
LEADERBOARD
VOTES PLAYER (CLUB)
10 - Christian Petracca (MELB)
8 - Bayley Fritsch (MELB)
5 - Clayton Oliver (MELB)
3 - Caleb Daniel (WB)
2 - Christian Salem (MELB)
1 - Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
1 - Angus Brayshaw (MELB)
Final totals (those in double figures)
LEADERBOARD
| VOTES | PLAYER | CLUB |
|---|---|---|
| 25 | Jack Macrae | WB |
| 23 | Christian Petracca | MELB |
| 19 | Clayton Oliver | MELB |
| 17 | Bailey Smith | WB |
| 11 | Marcus Bontempelli | WB |
| 11 | Max Gawn | MELB |
| 10 | Tom Hawkins | GEEL |
| 10 | Isaac Heeney | SYD |
I think it is worth a shot doing that - as i posted once before - i couldnt careless how far Geel fall -
Whats alot worse - is next season rolls along - they play Nth Melb - - and play keepings off and win by 4 goals - they play Frem - same thing happens - same result
They are just purely rubbish wins - they qualify for the finals again - and are a laughing stock again
Id rather tumble down the ladder - Rich and now Melb - play fast attacking football - Geel have to acknowledge that - and get with the times - and if there is pain - monumental pain - i couldnt careless
Next time Geel make the finals - i dont want to be watching 22 Thomsons Gazelles with the spotlight turned on them
My point is always that I don't see why we need to tumble down the ladder. Might bounce between 3rd and 8th at times (like 2017-2018 for example) but I don't see why the bottom rung is a foregone conclusion.
Richmond are the perfect example of a couple of things, though. A system that the entire competition didn't cope with for years, which was far more than the sum of their playing talent. Added to that, they had/have on their list a single player who continually elevated them beyond belief when it really mattered.
And I think suggesting that I'm moaning about access to picks is just not the case at all. I'm not into excuses. Just stating facts about how so many of Melbourne's prime movers come from a portion of the draft that we basically haven't accessed for a generation.
As for your point about how possible it is to still build a powerhouse with minimal top picks, I think the landscape has changed significantly over the 20 years since we managed that. Drafting 'precision' is mostly through the roof, and trade/free agency (like it or not) has massively altered the way teams go about building and maintaining lists in the absence of really early draft picks. Every club is trying to mix and match list approaches, and we are no different in subsequently trying to get that balance right.
Geelong has got some decisions seriously wrong over that journey, as have many others clubs in adapting to this new environment. And I make absolutely no excuses for the mistakes we have made. But I do disagree about the general level of probability (let alone likelihood) that you just keep drafting in the positions we mostly do now and build another powerhouse. So many clubs are getting looks at better players via the draft than we are; if they get even a narrow majority of those decisions right, the club is already battling to stay in contention.
None of this is code for defending the status quo, either. Our abysmal finish to this season (after the promise of 2020) surely ensures that we can't embrace anything too similar to recent years in our list management approach right now. I just have less confidence that a late first rounder most seasons (coupled with plenty of second and third round picks) in the current draft climate is in any way likely to result in an 'excellent core' these days.
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