Hardwick and Clarkson - AFL Legends?

[PhatBoy]

Oh ffs

 

[Cleansweep17]

Oh ffs

Can you stop following me around like a bad smell. F me

 

[PhatBoy]

Can you stop following me around like a bad smell. F me

Don’t flatter yourself. I can read a thread without knowing you’re posting in it. I don’t search ‘where is the thread with 100 alt accounts viewing at the same time’ before going into it to check if you’re there genius.

 

[juss]

If Hardwick combines his overall premierships as a player, assistant coach and coach, and if he can deliver Gold Coast a maiden flag at some point, its hard to look past that as overall contribution.

Clarkson has probably had one scandal too many, in fact I'd say the Hawthorn racism ongoing controversy is just politically something that will always keep him out. Not something the AFL would want to be associated with.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Ok that’s your view. But that means we’ll never see another 21st century coach elevated to legend status since they need 7+ flags across 4 different clubs (as a player or coach).

Are you sure you aren’t just aren’t saying Hardwick isn’t in the convo because you don’t like Richmond? Your standards seem extremely high.

My standards are high? To make the top 10% of the Australian Rules hall of fame that comprise the Legends group? Well, yeah, I guess that's true.

Every HOF Legend coach - I.e. every person who is in the Legends group and coached an AFL/VFL premiership as far as I can tell, also had a HOF-worthy (if not, Legend worthy) career as a player as well: Matthews, Nicholls, Kennedy, Smith, McHale, Barassi, Reynolds, Blight, Dyer, Sheedy. If you want to start bringing Hardwick into the discussion of Legends, you automatically have to start talking about someone like David Parkin, a person whose VFL/AFL CV outshines Hardwick's in every possible way. And I've literally never heard Parkin's name even mentioned as a possible candidate whenever the attention turns to the annual HOF presentation and another Legend inductee.

If you want to start talking about Hardwick as a possible Legend, you have to talk about people who had lesser or similar playing careers but far more decorated records as coaches: Jeans, Hafey, Malthouse and yes, Clarkson. I don't think any of them are really close to consideration for Legend status and I don't think Hardwick is either, though as an active coach, that may change.

Curious to know what evidence you have that I don't like Richmond? It has nothing to do with any of the clubs that Hardwick has represented in his career. He's just not a Legend-worthy candidate, sorry.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Meh. A good playing career no doubt (not even in the postcode of the HOF on that front as far as I'm concerned) and a HOF coaching career. Combined, that simply doesn't equal Legend status in my opinion and I wouldn't even have him in the discussion, in all honesty.

He needs to win a premiership at Gold Coast - and probably more than one - to be worthy of consideration.

More than 1? I think 1 would easily be enough.

Gold Coast: Existed for 14 seasons and have never finished higher than 12th. Bottom 4 in 9/14 seasons.

Richmond: Pre-Hardwick: 2 finals series and 2 total final wins in 28 seasons. 10 head coaches in that time, 7 failed to ever make the finals.
Hawrdwick takes Richmond to the finals 8 times, 10-6 record, 4 prelims, 3 grand finals and 3 flags.

These are 2 clubs that were/are viewed as essentially broken. If he can turn around Gold Coast and win their first flag with them then that would hard to ignore. Is there any other coach that has succeeded in 2 assignments as difficult as that would be?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

More than 1? I think 1 would easily be enough.

Gold Coast: Existed for 14 seasons and have never finished higher than 12th. Bottom 4 in 9/14 seasons.

Richmond: Pre-Hardwick: 2 finals series and 2 total final wins in 28 seasons. 10 head coaches in that time, 7 failed to ever make the finals.
Hawrdwick takes Richmond to the finals 8 times, 10-6 record, 4 prelims, 3 grand finals and 3 flags.

These are 2 clubs that were/are viewed as essentially broken. If he can turn around Gold Coast and win their first flag with them then that would hard to ignore. Is there any other coach that has succeeded in 2 assignments as difficult as that would be?

Right now off the top of my head I'd say Matthews and Malthouse have succeeded, whereas Hardwick has done nothing at Gold Coast - yet. Matthews was already a HOF Legend as a player before his Brisbane premierships and Malthouse as far as I'm aware has never been in the discussion about one day being a legend. Let's not forget where Collingwood was when he took the helm and let's not forget the potato farms that he took to the 2002/03 grand finals and within a whisker of winning in 2002.

Maybe it is a little personal with Hardwick... the two club thing, I'm not sure how much credit I can give him for mortgaging the future for the hope of short-term success, then walking, like, the moment it was clear his team wouldn't be playing finals and leaving others to clean up after him and latching on to a side with talent coming out of its ears and one of the most fortunate draft hauls ever on the way with priority zone selections. It's like a move that one of those scumbag NCAA coaches would pull.

 

[Cleansweep17]

My standards are high? To make the top 10% of the Australian Rules hall of fame that comprise the Legends group? Well, yeah, I guess that's true.

Every HOF Legend coach - I.e. every person who is in the Legends group and coached an AFL/VFL premiership as far as I can tell, also had a HOF-worthy (if not, Legend worthy) career as a player as well: Matthews, Nicholls, Kennedy, Smith, McHale, Barassi, Reynolds, Blight, Dyer, Sheedy. If you want to start bringing Hardwick into the discussion of Legends, you automatically have to start talking about someone like David Parkin, a person whose VFL/AFL CV outshines Hardwick's in every possible way. And I've literally never heard Parkin's name even mentioned as a possible candidate whenever the attention turns to the annual HOF presentation and another Legend inductee.

If you want to start talking about Hardwick as a possible Legend, you have to talk about people who had lesser or similar playing careers but far more decorated records as coaches: Jeans, Hafey, Malthouse and yes, Clarkson. I don't think any of them are really close to consideration for Legend status and I don't think Hardwick is either, though as an active coach, that may change.

Curious to know what evidence you have that I don't like Richmond? It has nothing to do with any of the clubs that Hardwick has represented in his career. He's just not a Legend-worthy candidate, sorry.

You are saying a current 5 x flag winner 2 as a player and 3 as a coach across 3 clubs (4 if you count hawks) is not even in the convo. You then say he has to win another 2 flags at a new club and he maybe can be in the convo. So at least 7 flags total across 4 clubs.

That is insane, we will never see a coach/player do that in our lifetimes. This is a 18 club comp (soon 19+) not 8-12.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

You are saying a current 5 x flag winner 2 as a player and 3 as a coach across 3 clubs (4 if you count hawks) is not even in the convo. You then say he has to win another 2 flags at a new club and he maybe can be in the convo. So at least 7 flags total across 4 clubs.

That is insane, we will never see a coach/player do that in our lifetimes. This is a 18 club comp (soon 19+) not 8-12.

So put him in the HOF. That's fine, it's a huge honour. As I've said, I think he has a long way to go to get past Hafey, Jeans, Parkin and Malthouse as coaches and they're not even close to being Legends.

 

[Back One Out]

Gaz Snr will always have that horrendous incident of the past with the young girl dying of a heroin overdose in his presence in a hotel room.

Even this is sugar-coating what Ablett Snr actually did.

He went on an alcohol & ecstasy bender with an 18yo girl. Back at his hotel room, while she went to the toilet, he chopped out a couple of fat lines of heroin for himself. He obviously wasn't an experienced heroin user and thought it was like racking up lines of speed.

She came back into the room, saw the lines and asked him what it was. He was too sheepish to admit it was heroin, so he lied to her and told her it was cocaine. They both snorted a line and OD'd... He woke up hours later and she was dead.

Never mind what the coroner's findings were... Ablett killed her, plain and simple. He should've been charged with manslaughter.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Right now off the top of my head I'd say Matthews and Malthouse have succeeded, whereas Hardwick has done nothing at Gold Coast - yet. Matthews was already a HOF Legend as a player before his Brisbane premierships and Malthouse as far as I'm aware has never been in the discussion about one day being a legend. Let's not forget where Collingwood was when he took the helm and let's not forget the potato farms that he took to the 2002/03 grand finals and within a whisker of winning in 2002.

I said IF he succeeds at Gold Coast which was a response to the hypothetical you brought up. Obviously he hasn't achieved anything yet just 5 rounds into the seasons.

I didn't say who had just succeeded, I'm talking about coaches who have come into clubs in as dire positions as what Hardwick has taken ever. Neither of those 2 are similar at all tbh.

New teams

• Hardwick joins Gold Coast in season 15.
  • Before that finished 17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 18th, 14th, 16th, 12th and 15th.
• Matthews joins Brisbane in season 3
  • Before that finished 8th (Finals) and 16th.
• Malthouse joins West Coast in season 4.
  • Before that finished 8th, 4th (Finals) and 11th

Old teams

• Hardwick joins Richmond in 2010
  • Before that 2 finals series, 2 finals wins, 0 grand final apperances in the 28 years since the last grand final appearance in 1982.
• Matthewsjoins Collingwood in 1986
  • Before that 19 finals series in 28 years since the last flag with 8 grand final appearances in 1960, 1964, 1966, 1970, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981.
• Malthousejoins Collingwood in 2000
  • Before that won a flag 9 years earlier and finals twice in the 9 seasons since.

Neither of them took either team over in a dire position with Malthouse Pies being the worst with a huge 9 year flag draught and 5 year finals draught

Maybe it is a little personal with Hardwick... the two club thing, I'm not sure how much credit I can give him for mortgaging the future for the hope of short-term success, then walking, like, the moment it was clear his team wouldn't be playing finals and leaving others to clean up after him and latching on to a side with talent coming out of its ears and one of the most fortunate draft hauls ever on the way with priority zone selections. It's like a move that one of those scumbag NCAA coaches would pull.

Silly point of view tbh. Richmond has a once in a lifetime team, of course you take the risk to try to land flag #4. It's all revisionist history because how it turned out but post 2022 it was a reasonable risk to take.

He also explained himself that he was burnt out and his message just wasn't getting through anymore. That's not giving up and he was right which clearly shown by our sudden ability to win those close ones after he left. Do you think he should've stayed? What would've that achieved? It was best for the club the way he did it too.

'Mortgaging our future' also sounds like you've been listening too much to Kane Cornes, maybe do your own research? We heavily invested in the draft in 2021 to prepare for the possibility of those trades and have also stacked this years draft to go heavily into it too. Hardly mortgaging your future when you trade out of only 2 draft and surround it by 2 drafts of heavy investment

We took 5 top 30 draft picks just in 2021. Between 2011-2016 Geelong took 4 top 30 picks.

 

[thejester]

Both need to win premierships at a second club to even be considered, in my opinion, especially as neither had what you could call a hall of fame calibre career as a player, compared to McHale, Barassi, Smith, Kennedy etc.

Hardwick in particular has only coached 16 finals games in 15 years. Three flags, sure HOF, why not? But as a Legend? Not even close.

Not sure if it’s just nostalgia but guys like Blight and Barassi had/have a cultural legacy too - integral to the life of the game. Hardwick and Clarko might have fourth acts in their careers that get them there but it hasn’t happened yet.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I said IF he succeeds at Gold Coast which was a response to the hypothetical you brought up. Obviously he hasn't achieved anything yet just 5 rounds into the seasons.

I didn't say who had just succeeded, I'm talking about coaches who have come into clubs in as dire positions as what Hardwick has taken ever. Neither of those 2 are similar at all tbh.

New teams

• Hardwick joins Gold Coast in season 15.
  • Before that finished 17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 18th, 14th, 16th, 12th and 15th.
• Matthews joins Brisbane in season 3
  • Before that finished 8th (Finals) and 16th.
• Malthouse joins West Coast in season 4.
  • Before that finished 8th, 4th (Finals) and 11th

Old teams

• Hardwick joins Richmond in 2010
  • Before that 2 finals series, 2 finals wins, 0 grand final apperances in the 28 years since the last grand final appearance in 1982.
• Matthewsjoins Collingwood in 1986
  • Before that 19 finals series in 28 years since the last flag with 8 grand final appearances in 1960, 1964, 1966, 1970, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981.
• Malthousejoins Collingwood in 2000
  • Before that won a flag 9 years earlier and finals twice in the 9 seasons since.

Neither of them took either team over in a dire position with Malthouse Pies being the worst with a huge 9 year flag draught and 5 year finals draught



Silly point of view tbh. Richmond has a once in a lifetime team, of course you take the risk to try to land flag #4. It's all revisionist history because how it turned out but post 2022 it was a reasonable risk to take.

He also explained himself that he was burnt out and his message just wasn't getting through anymore. That's not giving up and he was right which clearly shown by our sudden ability to win those close ones after he left. Do you think he should've stayed? What would've that achieved? It was best for the club the way he did it too.

'Mortgaging our future' also sounds like you've been listening too much to Kane Cornes, maybe do your own research? We heavily invested in the draft in 2021 to prepare for the possibility of those trades and have also stacked this years draft to go heavily into it too. Hardly mortgaging your future when you trade out of only 2 draft and surround it by 2 drafts of heavy investment

We took 5 top 30 draft picks just in 2021. Between 2011-2016 Geelong took 4 top 30 picks.

Wow, a lot to digest there. I'll try to be as succinct as possible in response.

The draft picks coughed up for Hopper and Taranto are only part of it; it's the length of their contracts that's another massive issue. It was pretty clearly an attempt to squeeze a final premiership out of the Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin, Grimes, Lynch era and right now, it looks like Taranto and Hopper won't play in a final for Richmond before that lot retires.

It's a reasonable risk to take if you have the guts to stick around when it starts to get a bit tough and you don't resurface a few months later at maybe the best young list in the league. In my book, that's gutless, like I said one of those scumbag NCAA coach moves when they sense the bad times ahead.

Malthouse took over Collingwood when they were a joke, an utter rabble... the worst team in the league; within four years he'd taken them to two grand finals. Ask a Collingwood supporter how the Pies were travelling in the late 90s if you don't remember. He took the Eagles from 11th the season before to their first finals win, first grand final, a PF and three GFs in five years for two flags. That's not factoring his early career work with the Dogs, nearly taking them to a grand final, a bit more meritorious than trying to add assistant coach triumphs in my books.

Moreover, Hardwick just doesn't have the longevity. Right now he's around the career wins mark of coaches like Eade, Pagan, Thompson, Walls and Worsfold, still three good seasons away from hitting the 200 wins milestone. By comparison, Matthews has 250, Parkin 287, Hafey 312, Jeans 335 and Malthouse 379.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Wow, a lot to digest there. I'll try to be as succinct as possible in response.

The draft picks coughed up for Hopper and Taranto are only part of it; it's the length of their contracts that's another massive issue. It was pretty clearly an attempt to squeeze a final premiership out of the Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin, Grimes, Lynch era and right now, it looks like Taranto and Hopper won't play in a final for Richmond before that lot retires.

It's a reasonable risk to take if you have the guts to stick around when it starts to get a bit tough and you don't resurface a few months later at maybe the best young list in the league. In my book, that's gutless, like I said one of those scumbag NCAA coach moves when they sense the bad times ahead.

Yes, it was a risk but honestly not too fussed about the lengths of their contracts, they'll have 5 years left after this year and will be 27 and 28 at the start of next season. Cotch and Jack just finished up, Dusty is in the final year of his $1.1m a year contract + Lynch contract ends next year where he's going to be on $1.5m. Our books are getting cleared and the salary cap is going up, we can do some front ending for both Hopper and Taranto over the next couple years so their contracts will be more reasonable the last few.

Hardwick should stick around at the detriment of the team? You think he's part of some trades so that means he can't leave the club? Heads up buddy, clubs make trades every year, the people involved aren't obliged to stick around until the end of their contracts lmao.

I think it's actually the opposite of your opinion, it would've been gutless to stick around when you know you're not the right man for the job anyone just because of pride. It takes guts to admit you are not up this anymore.
Your opinion would only make sense if him leaving put the club in a worse place and he bailed purely for his own good. Do you think Richmond would be in a better spot if Hardwick was still coaching?

Malthouse took over Collingwood when they were a joke, an utter rabble... the worst team in the league; within four years he'd taken them to two grand finals. Ask a Collingwood supporter how the Pies were travelling in the late 90s if you don't remember. He took the Eagles from 11th the season before to their first finals win, first grand final, a PF and three GFs in five years for two flags. That's not factoring his early career work with the Dogs, nearly taking them to a grand final, a bit more meritorious than trying to add assistant coach triumphs in my books.

Hahahah. Collingwood were an utter rabble? Sure....for their expectations since they were almost always near the top of the ladder. They were the worst team for literally one season. It's like saying McRae took over "a joke, an utter table". Nah mate, you've got to be really shit for a significant period of time to be an actual rabble. And you have to proper shit, like "how will this team ever be good again" shit, not just the bottom of the ladder.

1997: 10-12 91%
1998: 7-15 90%
1999: 4-18 84%.

Oh the horror! Finishing bottom once? North last 4 SEASONS are worse than Collingwood's worst year. And finishing with a percentage of 84% on the bottom of the ladder? How is that a rabble? You have to go back 43 years ago to find a team with a higher percentage while finishing bottom. You've got West Coast and North finishing in the 50% range and you think a team finishing bottom once with 84% is an utter rabble?

I'm not arguing he didn't improve teams, so I'm not sure why you're just throwing these stats out there. The point is if they are in WORST positions than the teams Hardwick taken over. So what arguments do you have for that. Why were West Coast and Collingwood in a worse position than Richmond and Gold Coast at the times each coach joined?

Moreover, Hardwick just doesn't have the longevity. Right now he's around the career wins mark of coaches like Eade, Pagan, Thompson, Walls and Worsfold, still three good seasons away from hitting the 200 wins milestone. By comparison, Matthews has 250, Parkin 287, Hafey 312, Jeans 335 and Malthouse 379.'

He doesn't have the longevity? ....he hasn't finished yet. Yes, a guy that's still coaching doesn't have the longevity as guys that have finished their careers. He may coach a couple seasons and finish up or he could coach for another 20 years, who knows. What we do know is his win percentage is 55.6% and Malthouse's was 56.5%. So if he can coach for the same amount of time, he's on track to match the wins and has already matched the number of flags.




Hes Richmonds longest serving coach, he had 170 wins at Richmond v Hayes 173

 

[PhatBoy]

Even this is sugar-coating what Ablett Snr actually did.

He went on an alcohol & ecstasy bender with an 18yo girl. Back at his hotel room, while she went to the toilet, he chopped out a couple of fat lines of heroin for himself. He obviously wasn't an experienced heroin user and thought it was like racking up lines of speed.

She came back into the room, saw the lines and asked him what it was. He was too sheepish to admit it was heroin, so he lied to her and told her it was cocaine. They both snorted a line and OD'd... He woke up hours later and she was dead.

Never mind what the coroner's findings were... Ablett killed her, plain and simple. He should've been charged with manslaughter.

Well no, she was 20.

That means she’s also a grown adult same as I was the first time I took an illicit substance and same as thousands of other people on any given weekend which seems to be glossed over whenever this is brought up. Why her age is mentioned is beyond me.

What we need though is some more discussion about the incident because I don’t think there’s been enough.

 

[Cdog71]

Hardwick probably a no.

Clarkson, yeah on track I think
SANFL flag
VFL flag
AFL flag
The only coach to have ever done that and a three peat.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Wow, a lot to digest there. I'll try to be as succinct as possible in response.

The draft picks coughed up for Hopper and Taranto are only part of it; it's the length of their contracts that's another massive issue. It was pretty clearly an attempt to squeeze a final premiership out of the Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin, Grimes, Lynch era and right now, it looks like Taranto and Hopper won't play in a final for Richmond before that lot retires.

It's a reasonable risk to take if you have the guts to stick around when it starts to get a bit tough and you don't resurface a few months later at maybe the best young list in the league. In my book, that's gutless, like I said one of those scumbag NCAA coach moves when they sense the bad times ahead.

Malthouse took over Collingwood when they were a joke, an utter rabble... the worst team in the league; within four years he'd taken them to two grand finals. Ask a Collingwood supporter how the Pies were travelling in the late 90s if you don't remember. He took the Eagles from 11th the season before to their first finals win, first grand final, a PF and three GFs in five years for two flags. That's not factoring his early career work with the Dogs, nearly taking them to a grand final, a bit more meritorious than trying to add assistant coach triumphs in my books.

Moreover, Hardwick just doesn't have the longevity. Right now he's around the career wins mark of coaches like Eade, Pagan, Thompson, Walls and Worsfold, still three good seasons away from hitting the 200 wins milestone. By comparison, Matthews has 250, Parkin 287, Hafey 312, Jeans 335 and Malthouse 379.

the cattle affects the coaches W/L so it’s not a fair comparison. Is Clarko a shit coach cause North can’t win a game to save themselves. No

 

[Bedi]

AFL Hall of Fame yes, legends no chance. David Parkin coached 4 flags and captained one, so if he's not, neither will Hardwick or Clarkson.

 

[Back One Out]

Well no, she was 20.

That means she’s also a grown adult same as I was the first time I took an illicit substance and same as thousands of other people on any given weekend which seems to be glossed over whenever this is brought up. Why her age is mentioned is beyond me.

What we need though is some more discussion about the incident because I don’t think there’s been enough.

Either way, she was young and impressionable and still basically a kid. You say "grown adult" but that's just a legal definition. The fact is nobody is a full grown adult at that age. Our immature brains are still developing. We make all sorts of stupid mistakes at that age.

Ablett was 39. Alisha Horan was 20.

But you're right... Her relatively young age was not the most pressing issue.

More to the point, Ablett deliberately lied to her. He told her it was cocaine and chopped out a line of heroin for her to snort, which is what killed her. She didn't make the choice to snort a line of heroin. She thought it was coke.

It was a miscarriage of justice that Ablett wasn't charged over her death. He killed her.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Well no, she was 20.

That means she’s also a grown adult same as I was the first time I took an illicit substance and same as thousands of other people on any given weekend which seems to be glossed over whenever this is brought up. Why her age is mentioned is beyond me.

What we need though is some more discussion about the incident because I don’t think there’s been enough.

Just give it up man. Everybody knows he’s guilty even the AFL that’s why he isn’t a Legend. That fact you are trying to defend him via your “technicalities” is a disgrace. It’s all good cause she was 20 instead of 18

Not sure if you have a little sister I do and trust me at 20 they are still innocent/immature young girls not 40 year old mature women.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Hardwick probably a no.

Clarkson, yeah on track I think
SANFL flag
VFL flag
AFL flag
The only coach to have ever done that and a three peat.

A coach can only be considered really good if they win flags at different clubs.

Until then, it's too hard to validate whether it was their coaching or the playing list that was the reason for their success.

I mean, who knows what Hardwick's resume would look like if he didn't have Dustin Martin? Likely similar to a Ratten or a Bolton.

 

[PhatBoy]

Just give it up man. Everybody knows he’s guilty even the AFL that’s why he isn’t a Legend. That fact you are trying to defend him via your “technicalities” is a disgrace. It’s all good cause she was 20 instead of 18

Not sure if you have a little sister I do and trust me at 20 they are still innocent/immature young girls not 40 year old mature women.

Where have I defended it.

Show me.

I don’t need little sisters. I have daughters. They’ve been 20.

 

[Daka]

I feel Clarkson made a mistake going to North Melbourne.

Dimma although he gets on my nerves he still seems very passionate & I think he is smarter with choices than Clarkson.
He literally picked a team that had done a lot of legwork already in terms of rebuilding.

So I think Hardwick is more of a chance at enhancing his reputation than Clarkson.

 

[PhatBoy]

Either way, she was young and impressionable and still basically a kid. You say "grown adult" but that's just a legal definition. The fact is nobody is a full grown adult at that age. Our immature brains are still developing. We make all sort of stupid mistakes at that age.

Ablett was 39. Alisha Horan was 20.

But you're right... Her relatively young age was not the most pressing issue.

More to the point, Ablett deliberately lied to her. He told her it was cocaine and chopped out a line of heroin for her to snort, which is what killed her. She didn't make the choice to snort a line of heroin. She thought it was coke.

It was a miscarriage of justice that Ablett wasn't charged over her death. He killed her.

yes he’s on the same scale as people who deliberately murder people.

 

[Back One Out]

yes he’s on the same scale as people who deliberately murder people.=

No. You're being an ass.

I already said Ablett should've been charged with manslaughter.