Has Malthouse Been A Failure?

[MarkT2]

Initially I thought Carlton would get a kick along under a new coach. It was always going to take a bit to get used to the new game plan but the enthusiasm of a (quality) new coach generally gives a boost. I thought the second year would be a step back as 10 or so players would be turned over once the list was properly assessed.

However, with Carlton struggling to make the finals the outlook changes a bit. It will be interesting to see whether MM now turns over a large number of players and if so how Carlton react to a second backward year below expectations. No doubt MM will be given time, as he should, but year 3 is going to be very interesting as MM speads the gospel of builing from the bottom if he does cull at the end of this year.

 

[Richo83]

I think if GWS can develop the kids well, they're going to be as scary as Gold Coast. Having Cameron and Patton up forward is about the best start you can get, with Corr, Plowman and Davis down back and Jacksh as a swingman, Buntine running around and guys like Adams, Shiel, Coniglio, Treloar, Whitfield, and Ward going through the midfield, they've got plenty of potential and if they can snag Buddy lookout! I think back to the 2004 Wizard Cup when the Saints looked to have a better list than Geelong. The future of a list is always a tough one to predict.

Franklin changes things, of course. They need to get the midfield right though, and I think the suns have some handy forwards too, guys like Dixon will be a handful in the future. Even the more reason to get your skates on, this is why, I suspect, Richmond signed all these older guys, to fast track the improvement.

While it would definitely be nice, I think this gets overblown a bit. Judd has already slowed down and other older statesmen like Simpson and Carrazzo have either been missing or down and form and we've taken some of the best sides in the league to the line. Waite, or someone to stand up in his position is important. We've got guys like Mitchell and McCarthy in the VFL, but who knows what's going to eventuate with them. Or maybe a Watson can free Henderson to go forward and Casboult start kicking straight, which further alleviates the issue. Most important is that we find improvement from within. The biggest unknown of course, is how free agency is going to play out in regards to list building. It has the potential to change the landscape of this type of thinking greatly.

Sure. I think Judd matters in terms of his onfield leadership, and he does pull out a blinder or two like against the hawks. Simpson has played every game and averages the 7th most disposals of any blue, but you're probably right, I don't watch Simpson particularly closely. Carrazzo is an interesting player, he's missed a lot, and I think you miss him, but I thought he was poor the first two weeks, at the least, he was down on previous years. Looked slow and made poor decisions. The biggest issue is Waite, will he slow down? The problem with him is that, even now, he's injury/suspension prone, will that increase in the future? You'd have to say so given he's a KPP. And then there's a bunch of unproven quantities. I agree with the Henderson comment, if he can be pushed forward, he could become a weapon. I'm not convinced about Casboult, he can clunk a mark, but he can get lost in games and his kicking technique is flawed at times. I'm not sure he can get you the 30 goals a season you're hoping for. Ultimately I think Carlton are a few free agent signings away from being a top side, they need another KPF, I just can't think of anyone available right now.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

And all I said was as bad, if not worse. The if not worse part I've included the additional injuries and the comment was also made in respect to Murphy and Robinson's injuries in the last game.

So no, not complete tripe in the slightest and certainly it refutes forwardflankers comment.

Robinson hasnt even been ruled out of the next game yet

Complete tripe, youre not only making stuff up you are also making predictions and treating them as fact to suit your line of argument.

 

[Fadge]

I think thats largely the criticism of the Malthouse appointment. Many people dont think they have a list to bring them short term success. I'm not sure Malthouse at his age is the man for their long term plans. It wil be interesting to see at what point the penny drops.

This post hits the nail on the head.

The naysayers amongst us (otherwise known as trolls) have been suggesting for the past three or four years the same issues with the Carlton list:
- Too large an age gap between Judd/Scotland/Simpson/Carazzo and Murphy/Gibbs/Kreuzer. The latter three should be hitting their prime now, whereas how much can be expected from the elder statesmen? By my reckoning given the mix of the Carlton list, their peak period was the last six months of 2012, and they would have needed everything to go right for them to have a crack at top four, similar to the run they had in 2011 (including a couple of the better teams to drop away significantly ala West Coast 2013). They were nowhere near it.
- Too large a reliance on a Key Position Forward who struggles to get on the park, with only 'names' with no proven experience to replace him. I still wouldn't recognise the likes of Watson, McInnes and whoever else has been floated by the Carlton faithful if I ran into them in the street, nor are we any closer to knowing whether these 'kids' will cut it.

You don't recruit a 60 year old coach for long term results, but gee this list is a long way away from being a realistic contender. And doesn't everyone like to think they will be positioning themselves for a shot at the title in 'three to four years'?

I reckon it's time that the Carlton knockers on this board were given credit for being absolutely spot on with their list assessment over the past four years, instead of being labelled trolls and being told, 'you know we're coming'.

 

[Graffy4242]

This post hits the nail on the head.

The naysayers amongst us (otherwise known as trolls) have been suggesting for the past three or four years the same issues with the Carlton list:
- Too large an age gap between Judd/Scotland/Simpson/Carazzo and Murphy/Gibbs/Kreuzer. The latter three should be hitting their prime now, whereas how much can be expected from the elder statesmen? By my reckoning given the mix of the Carlton list, their peak period was the last six months of 2012, and they would have needed everything to go right for them to have a crack at top four, similar to the run they had in 2011 (including a couple of the better teams to drop away significantly ala West Coast 2013). They were nowhere near it.
- Too large a reliance on a Key Position Forward who struggles to get on the park, with only 'names' with no proven experience to replace him. I still wouldn't recognise the likes of Watson, McInnes and whoever else has been floated by the Carlton faithful if I ran into them in the street, nor are we any closer to knowing whether these 'kids' will cut it.

You don't recruit a 60 year old coach for long term results, but gee this list is a long way away from being a realistic contender. And doesn't everyone like to think they will be positioning themselves for a shot at the title in 'three to four years'?

I reckon it's time that the Carlton knockers on this board were given credit for being absolutely spot on with their list assessment over the past four years, instead of being labelled trolls and being told, 'you know we're coming'.

Oh Fudge.

If you put as much effort into supporting your own club, as opposed to incessantly posting anti-Carlton drivel, I am sure Eddie would make you the #1 Ticket Holder.

 

[Fadge]

Oh Fudge.

If you put as much effort into supporting your own club, as opposed to incessantly posting anti-Carlton drivel, I am sure Eddie would make you the #1 Ticket Holder.

Yes, it was drivel when I first posted it four years ago, and it's drivel now.

The only difference is that history has proven me, and money others on the Main Board, 100% correct.

 

[Graffy4242]

Yes, it was drivel when I first posted it four years ago, and it's drivel now.

The only difference is that history has proven me, and money others on the Main Board, 100% correct.

You might actually have something relevant to say but it is masked by your incredibly biased anti-Carlton agenda.

Why so negative??

I think you might need a hug.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Maybe they can appoint Judd as coach and Malthouse can stay on as Director of Caoching.

 

[Fadge]

You might actually have something relevant to say but it is masked by your incredibly biased anti-Carlton agenda.

Why so negative??

I think you might need a hug.

I give credit where it is due - I actually backed up Carlton supporters in another thread last week with regard to the umpiring in the Hawthorn game, and complemented Bryce Gibbs because for the first time I saw him show a bit of mongrel on the field - specifically getting into Hodge's face at one stage of the game.

But apart from that, Carlton have deserved very little credit over the past four years and those of us that don't rate them are generally labelled trolls despite being proven right time and time again.

It's not about the players either, they can only do what they can do. But the administration continually live in the 80's and attempt to find short-cuts to success in a day and age where strategy, culture, development and hard work are more important than anything else.

Shafting a club legend who had delivered your team's best results in a decade and replacing him with a megalomaniac like Malthouse a prime case in point.

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

Shafting a club legend who had delivered your team's best results in a decade and replacing him with a megalomaniac like Malthouse a prime case in point.

You describing Malthouse or Buckley, 'cause as a neutral I cant tell the difference?

 

[Monkey King]

Robinson hasnt even been ruled out of the next game yet

Complete tripe, youre not only making stuff up you are also making predictions and treating them as fact to suit your line of argument.

It's true he hasn't been ruled out yet, but given he couldn't raise his arm, it's considered very likely and and shouldn't be ignored when facing false statements such as those made by ff. Murphy is ruled out for the next month. Nothing wrong with my statement, but I get why you're focusing on the little things rather than getting the big picture here.

You can keep talking shit about making stuff up, but you've not been able to demonstrate where this has even slightly occured. Just saying it doesn't make it true mate.

 

[Monkey King]

Franklin changes things, of course. They need to get the midfield right though, and I think the suns have some handy forwards too, guys like Dixon will be a handful in the future. Even the more reason to get your skates on, this is why, I suspect, Richmond signed all these older guys, to fast track the improvement.

I think GWS KPF's leave Gold Coast's for dead. But really the point is, like Collingwood encountered with Brisbane and Geelong, you can get a team up to a standard where they'd be premiers in another year, but in that particular year come up against a uniquely outstanding team. No one's going to be able to predict all the moving parts in the league years in advance. Hell, most can't even predict the top 8 for the upcoming season.

Sure. I think Judd matters in terms of his onfield leadership, and he does pull out a blinder or two like against the hawks. Simpson has played every game and averages the 7th most disposals of any blue, but you're probably right, I don't watch Simpson particularly closely. Carrazzo is an interesting player, he's missed a lot, and I think you miss him, but I thought he was poor the first two weeks, at the least, he was down on previous years. Looked slow and made poor decisions. The biggest issue is Waite, will he slow down? The problem with him is that, even now, he's injury/suspension prone, will that increase in the future? You'd have to say so given he's a KPP. And then there's a bunch of unproven quantities. I agree with the Henderson comment, if he can be pushed forward, he could become a weapon. I'm not convinced about Casboult, he can clunk a mark, but he can get lost in games and his kicking technique is flawed at times. I'm not sure he can get you the 30 goals a season you're hoping for. Ultimately I think Carlton are a few free agent signings away from being a top side, they need another KPF, I just can't think of anyone available right now.

Judd matter for sure. That's why I said it would be nice that we get up with him still around, definitely. Simpson has been playing a different role this year and hasn't been as key a plyer as he has been in years passed. Carrazzo at his best might be missed, but Cachia has stepped in really well and like I said, we've taken the best teams to the wire without him. I'm not sure with Casboult either. He's as good a contested mark as anyone in the league atm, but you're right, he must overcome his accuracy at goal. Kicking something like 41 goals 8 behinds in his TAC season, so it's not an impossibility, but who knows. Could be a key for the side going forward. Anyway, free agency gives a potential to gap-fill much more than in past years, so there are options. I know they aren't any standouts available right now but when it comes to issue of getting the team up while Waite's still around, it doesn't need to be right now. We might have another year or two to figure this out.

 

[forwardflanker]

I give credit where it is due - I actually backed up Carlton supporters in another thread last week with regard to the umpiring in the Hawthorn game, and complemented Bryce Gibbs because for the first time I saw him show a bit of mongrel on the field - specifically getting into Hodge's face at one stage of the game.

But apart from that, Carlton have deserved very little credit over the past four years and those of us that don't rate them are generally labelled trolls despite being proven right time and time again.

It's not about the players either, they can only do what they can do. But the administration continually live in the 80's and attempt to find short-cuts to success in a day and age where strategy, culture, development and hard work are more important than anything else.

Shafting a club legend who had delivered your team's best results in a decade and replacing him with a megalomaniac like Malthouse a prime case in point.

+1, the biggest trolls are the Carlton board who have continually misled misfortunate, disadvantaged and defeated Carlton supporters like MK and ODN into believing that their club is a quick fix away from a premiership. There is no silver lining for Carlton, just the inevitably of another decade of mediocre performances dressed up by the board and administration as progress towards once again being a league powerhouse. Sadly in my lifetime I have seen Carlton go from being the strongest club in the league to just another mid tier suburban club of the likes of St Kilda or Richmond. Nothing will change down there until they finally wake up to the fact that it's not the 1980's anymore. Until then expect more of the same.

 

[captain peanut]

The carlton list is no good, so it's hard to say malthouse has been a failure. He is getting everything he can out of an ordinary list, just like ratten was doing until injuries hit in 2012. Blues need a complete rebuild of their list and thy should have recognised this before appointing a bloke who won't be in for the long haul required

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

It's true he hasn't been ruled out yet, but given he couldn't raise his arm, it's considered very likely and and shouldn't be ignored when facing false statements such as those made by ff..

I can only repeat, Robinson has not missed a game and has not been ruled out from any. You are predicting the future in ruling him out of the next match to suit your line of argument, and your response to me (above) just verifies that.

 

[Monkey King]

I can only repeat, Robinson has not missed a game and has not been ruled out from any. You are predicting the future in ruling him out of the next match to suit your line of argument, and your response to me (above) just verifies that.

Again, climb over the pile to fixate on a twig. Fact is Robinson is on Carlton's injury list. Yes, he may or may not miss a game. He will be tested. Leaving him out of future considerations would have been remiss.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Again, climb over the pile to fixate on a twig. Fact is Robinson is on Carlton's injury list. Yes, he may or may not miss a game. He will be tested. Leaving him out of future considerations would have been remiss.

Remiss in context of an analysis of the past 12 rounds?

How does your round 14 prediction of Robinsons fitness levels based on your (presumably) basic medical knowledge have any bearing on Cartlons current position vs this time last year?

 

[Monkey King]

How does your round 14 prediction of Robinsons fitness levels based on your (presumably) basic medical knowledge have any bearing on Cartlons current position vs this time last year?

Noting Murphy and Robinson was a clear postscript to my rebuttal ("and now" were the words I used) with the point of highlighting to forwardflanker that these new injuries make the issue of injury an ongoing one for Malthouse and should be kept in mind before making the same ill-founded comments in future.

My knowledge here need extend no further than noting Robbo's name on Carlton's injury list and the doubt over his fitness. And ironic to your comment, my first degree was in a medical based discipline.

I'm going to discontinue the pedantic shit from this point. The point has been made clear, that Malthouse has faced at least the same injury impediments that Ratten faced to this point last season. But please, feel free to continue climbing over the pile in search of your twig.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

In other words, zero.

 

[Richo83]

Again, climb over the pile to fixate on a twig. Fact is Robinson is on Carlton's injury list. Yes, he may or may not miss a game. He will be tested. Leaving him out of future considerations would have been remiss.

I realise this is not what Tim's point was, but apart from the St Kilda, but have Carlton lost any matches due to injuries they would've won with a better run? It seems like losses against Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn were more due to being fairly beaten, or, in the Hawthorn case, umpiring.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I realise this is not what Tim's point was, but apart from the St Kilda, but have Carlton lost any matches due to injuries they would've won with a better run? It seems like losses against Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn were more due to being fairly beaten, or, in the Hawthorn case, umpiring.

I'm sure the teams that beat them have also had their fair share of injuries too.

 

[Fadge]

I realise this is not what Tim's point was, but apart from the St Kilda, but have Carlton lost any matches due to injuries they would've won with a better run? It seems like losses against Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn were more due to being fairly beaten, or, in the Hawthorn case, umpiring.

Yes, Carlton lost to St. Kilda because of injuries and Waite's absence.

I must have been watching a different game however given St. Kilda were looking like winning by 10 plus goals at one stage, Carlton were outclassed from very early on in that game.

That's been the thing about Carlton over the past four years - if only they had have had Kreuzer, Gibbs and whoever else was missed in that semi-final against West Coast, anything could have happened in 2011. After all, they do match up particularly well against Geelong...

 

[Richo83]

Yes, Carlton lost to St. Kilda because of injuries and Waite's absence.

I must have been watching a different game however given St. Kilda were looking like winning by 10 plus goals at one stage, Carlton were outclassed from very early on in that game.

They suffered injuries to Yarran, Ellard, Jamison and Murphy, they had like a two man bench at one stage. I mean given St Kilda are pretty much Riewoldt and friends, losing your full back is a pretty big deal.

 

[Monkey King]

It seems like losses against Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn were more due to being fairly beaten, or, in the Hawthorn case, umpiring.

The discussion over injury has nothing to do with what Carlton could have won or lost ... forwardflanker made a comment that Malthouse hasn't faced an injury challenge comparable to Ratten of last year. I was simply pointing out he was incorrect in making that statement. Timmy has just been rabbiting on ever since, despite conceding that my correction is actually valid; but as this thread has shown more than once, he has this insatiable desire to go in circles once he runs out of room.

 

[Donstuie]

I just put them on ignore and instantly the thread looks smarter