I did that a little while ago & you are right, it instantly increased the standard of the discussion in this thread.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Has Malthouse Been A Failure?
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I don't know that Carlton have been better under Malthouse, but we're different.
Under Ratten, we rode on the back of Judd's brilliance and a decent supporting midfield. Ratten did a good job of motivating the team, but we didn't have the structure or the resilience to beat the really good opponents. We were ridiculously consistent against worse teams, but were never really competitive against teams in the top echelon - I think we beat Geelong in early 2011, but other than that, I can't remember a single win against top 4 opposition in Ratten's tenure. Even the most ardent Carlton supporters would admit that Ratten did a brilliant job with a weak list (just look at the number of former rookie list players we play: Betts, Garlett, Carazzo, Curnow, Jamison, Casboult, Tuohy, Bell, etc.), but we never really challenged for a premiership. Our best crack was 2011, where we were a bit unlucky to lose to West Coast with half a team missing, but honestly, we were never in contention. After 6 years, with the team stagnating a bit, it was time for a fresh start - especially with Malthouse available and interested.
With Malthouse, we've taken some time to adapt to a more controlled, defensive structure and it has showed. Over the last 5 years, we've been pummeled by top 4 teams, but got as close as anyone has to the Hawks last week and pushed Geelong and Collingwood close. More importantly, while we looked substantially worse than the top 4 teams in the past, for patches of those games it looked like we were a good chance to win, which suggests progress, even if we can't sustain it. Under Ratten, we beat teams by letting Judd/Murphy win the ball, then spreading and running hard into space. Good teams shut that down easily and smashed us. Malthouse is noticeably demanding that players are more defensive, more accountable, and relying on us to win contests and play the percentages. At the moment, we don't have the team to pull this off - under pressure we've fumbled the game away (Hawthorn), lost it through bad turnovers and missed shots at goal under pressure (Essendon, Richmond), or simply had 5-10 minute patches where we've lost concentration that cost us the game (Collingwood, Geelong). Over time, the players will adjust and grow into the style, or they'll be replaced. Malthouse has said that he expects it will take 3 years to build a challenger at Carlton - time to teach players to play the right way, and to replace those that won't. That seems about right. In the mean-time, if we can be mid-table and play some entertaining games (and the Hawthorn and Essendon games were amongst the best this year, despite the ending), then that isn't a bad result.
Under Ratten, we rode on the back of Judd's brilliance and a decent supporting midfield. Ratten did a good job of motivating the team, but we didn't have the structure or the resilience to beat the really good opponents. We were ridiculously consistent against worse teams, but were never really competitive against teams in the top echelon - I think we beat Geelong in early 2011, but other than that, I can't remember a single win against top 4 opposition in Ratten's tenure. Even the most ardent Carlton supporters would admit that Ratten did a brilliant job with a weak list (just look at the number of former rookie list players we play: Betts, Garlett, Carazzo, Curnow, Jamison, Casboult, Tuohy, Bell, etc.), but we never really challenged for a premiership. Our best crack was 2011, where we were a bit unlucky to lose to West Coast with half a team missing, but honestly, we were never in contention. After 6 years, with the team stagnating a bit, it was time for a fresh start - especially with Malthouse available and interested.
With Malthouse, we've taken some time to adapt to a more controlled, defensive structure and it has showed. Over the last 5 years, we've been pummeled by top 4 teams, but got as close as anyone has to the Hawks last week and pushed Geelong and Collingwood close. More importantly, while we looked substantially worse than the top 4 teams in the past, for patches of those games it looked like we were a good chance to win, which suggests progress, even if we can't sustain it. Under Ratten, we beat teams by letting Judd/Murphy win the ball, then spreading and running hard into space. Good teams shut that down easily and smashed us. Malthouse is noticeably demanding that players are more defensive, more accountable, and relying on us to win contests and play the percentages. At the moment, we don't have the team to pull this off - under pressure we've fumbled the game away (Hawthorn), lost it through bad turnovers and missed shots at goal under pressure (Essendon, Richmond), or simply had 5-10 minute patches where we've lost concentration that cost us the game (Collingwood, Geelong). Over time, the players will adjust and grow into the style, or they'll be replaced. Malthouse has said that he expects it will take 3 years to build a challenger at Carlton - time to teach players to play the right way, and to replace those that won't. That seems about right. In the mean-time, if we can be mid-table and play some entertaining games (and the Hawthorn and Essendon games were amongst the best this year, despite the ending), then that isn't a bad result.
Congratulations. Your list of top eight scalps has just risen from zero to one. Of course it too Carlton dropping out of the the eight for that to happen.
Carlton is now in the exact same postion it was last year....win-loss (except with a poorer record against top eight teams, percentage, ladder position.
Like I was telling you, a couple of weeks ago it would have been two. Who knows by years end. What I do know is that even the best teams this year aren't more than a few kicks away from the Blues.
Bold is WTF
Given that Malthouse-coached teams have been in the 5/6/8 at Round 13 in 22 of 28 seasons prior to this, I'm sure he would mark his results harshly to this point.
To surpass Rattens 2012 record of 11 wins Carlton needs to win six of its last ten.
In the run home play six teams above them on the ladder. So they will have to beat all four teams below them (including North who wont be easy, and StKilda who beat them early in the year and Suns in Brissy) PLUS beat two of Sydney Collingwood Fremantle Richmond Essendon and Port. Tough run home.
I can see them struggling to win more than five games, which would leave them exactly where they were last year under Ratten. And not sure 12 wins is enough to make finals either.
In the run home play six teams above them on the ladder. So they will have to beat all four teams below them (including North who wont be easy, and StKilda who beat them early in the year and Suns in Brissy) PLUS beat two of Sydney Collingwood Fremantle Richmond Essendon and Port. Tough run home.
I can see them struggling to win more than five games, which would leave them exactly where they were last year under Ratten. And not sure 12 wins is enough to make finals either.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Hey Timmy - what do you think of Nathan Buckley's record - he is two years in now with a great list that Malthouse put together for him - is Collingwood a chance at making top4 this year?
I think we'll be a fair showing in the Collingwood, Richmond, Essendon and Port games.
Yep still a chance I'd say, only half a game behind the Swans to move into fifth so the head to head with them later in the year will be telling. We need to keep winning in the period when we play weaker teams....suddenly Port Adelaide arent a weak team so this game is massive.
If we win the next four against the Power Crows Suns and Giants we will face Essendon, and a win against them should put us in the four.
Whats the relevance to the thread topic though?
Have to say I don't give a toss whether Mick has a better win/loss record than Ratten this year.
First year in charge, weeding through the list to see who's worth keeping and who isn't.
If we get to play finals this year yippee, if not, oh well.
Next year is a more important year in terms of displayed improvement translating to a better ladder position.
Ratten got as high as he could. Mick will expect and be expected to do more.
This thread is a fairly large waste of everyone's typing skills.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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I don't think Collingwood is playing top4 football let alone flag style football under Buckley.
I would rather Malthouse continues hardening Carlton up by insisting on accountable football and putting in place a list and platform for a sustainable ladder positioning - than worry about whether the team is winning more or less games than they did last year. Carlton do not deserve to be winning close games which it has lost this year - but its supporters are appreciating the fact that the team isn't getting smashed every other week.
Personally speaking the coming wins against Collingwood , Essendon and Richmond in rematches don't interest me much, as none of these teams will likely be who Carlton has to get over to win #17 over the next few years.
I just find the premise of the thread to be a weak and silly.
HBF
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This was always going to be a tough year at Carlton. We are learning a new game style, and Mick is seeing who can and can't cut it at AFL level. I'd also expect us to very active during the trade and FA period at years end. Did anyone really expect us to finish top 4 this year?
No they're not yet, thats why we are not top four at this stage. You asked me if we could make top four, not if we were in top four present at the monent. Its a very impressive achievement to be still in touch with the top four. But again we are off topic.
forwardflanker
Cancelled
I'd say we're an outside chance for top 4. I think our list is very good however it was definitely overrated after 2011 with a couple of clubs overtaking us in terms of talent. Other teams have woken up to what was a cutting edge gameplan in 2010 and this has forced Buckley to change this up fairly dramatically. These factors as well as a horrid run with injuries makes finishing in the four last season a pretty decent achievement. It's to early to tell this season how we will finish however recent results and a pretty favorable draw over the next few weeks gives us a fighting chance at top 4. We haven't been playing that well this year but I attribute that to injuries and a radical change in gameplan - the fact we're still getting results in spite of this has been a good achievement by FIGJAM imo. We'll definitely be better for it as the season progresses.
The comforting thing about this season is that even if we don't finish in the top four (and we would be <50% at this stage) it hasn't been a waste at all and we've played a lot of young players and changed a lot of things which is really promising
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Seems to me that Collingwood will have their work cut out for them to make top4 - unless there is some kind of form reversal from one or two in there already. You say it is an impressive achievement to stay in touch with the top4 - I don't see it that way at all really - Collingwood had an established deep list and the young ones coming in and showing that only underlines the strength of the Club - but unlike 2010/11/12 Collingwood appear to me to have peaked in relative terms to make it more obvious why I have been on topic - admittedly from an 'angle' Carlton are no where near peaking - and that is playing week in week out with a far less developed list and two obvious holes in teh team - one tall down back and one more importantly up front - despite these handicaps , Malthouse has made Carlton a far far more consistent side - a goal or two away from knocking anyone off really - which is the answer to your question regarding Malthouse.
Change the name from Collingwood to Carlton and the bolded statement fits just as well - I dont think losses to Richmond/Collingwood/Essendon or Hawthorn - would have instilled any of those Clubs with a feeling of clear superiority over Carlton. really the only disappointment thus far this year has been not closing out Essendon and Hawthorn and of course losing to St Kilda.
These types of losses merely underline how well the team has adjusted to a new coach but more importantly how badly Carlton need a genuine marking tall up front. Malthouse can only do so much coaching with such a glaring 'black hole of missingness'..
Personally I think the competition is wide open this year at this stage anyway.
forwardflanker
Cancelled
Well the bizarre thing about Carlton this season is that it looks like they're playing quite well. MM has made quite a few changes and some have really payed off, especially Walker to half back. They also look to be playing well as a team. The problem is that this significant improvement sees you in exactly the same spot on the ladder. I don't think it has much to do with MM though, the one thing you expect from him as coach is that he gets every ounce of ability from his players and this time has been no exception. I loved him as coach of the pies because you knew that you were always going to get an honest and competitive performance from a MM side. I think the primary reason for the lack of ladder progress can be put down to two things:
1. Not getting results in a couple of games that you should of - in particular Essendon, but also Collingwood where you caught us with two men down and no ruck you should of really won imo.
2. A lot of teams who were worse than Carlton last season have improved to be as good as or better. Your right about this season being really competitive but I see it more in competition for spots from 3rd to 10th. Atm Sydney and in particular Hawthorn are a long way ahead of the pack imo.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Malthouse does get more out of some players - Cachia, Walker, Garlett, Armfield, Curnow these types needed to be given a chance and also be given a role - however even Malthouse can't work miracles with all types of players- notable misses from starting 22 that were in week in week out under Ratten include: Laiddler, Duigan, Hampson for example - all playing VFL along with Warnock - I like the way Malthouse seems to be fair in his expectations - if you don't perform you are out - most coaches don't have the necessary courage to do this. On thin ice are Yarran in particular and Waite - if you have talent the benchmark is set higher maybe. Carlton has some serious trade bait going into the end of the year....
Team belief in the coach is pretty obvious - Judd is quietly putting in very strong performances, he has two more years to go after this one, now that he isn't expected to do everything in the middle every clearance. Gibbs is flying under the radar and starting to display soem hardness and talent that got him to #1 pick as a midfielder in the first place- he was wasted down back by Ratten - totally wasted.
So I agree with you Malthouse (at least) gives supporters a competitive side week in week out - something that Ratten was never able to accomplish.
Still as you say all teams develop and when you are playing with obvious missing bits - one developed tall down back and one developed tall forward up front - your game style is compromised by these facts and I believe explains the close losses - Carlton has blitzed most sides for forward 50 entries but can't put scores on the board - this underlines in bold the reason why Carlton will struggle to win soem close matches and probably be lucky to make finals - can't put teams away.
I think you are wrong about Sydney and Hawthorn btw - they are both beatable - Carlton even without the forward firepower required were unlucky to lose that one. To stop Hawthorn you play one on one 4 quarter football and spread them - Sydney with a full list are harder- one on one and match the grind. Ex Goodes they come back to the pack and Tippett is no magic pill for them.
Collingwood are in with a chance - no doubt about it - but something is missing.
SBYM
Fish, chips, cup o' tea, Mary @#? Poppins. London!
Have we put a line through Malthouse yet?
Not happy at all, it's just the way it is. I isolate the game because Hawthorn (along with North and St Kilda) have been a major bogey team, therefore I take the game against them to be a genuine indicator of the team's progress (or lack thereof). I maintain that Ratten's blues would have folded after Hawks got off to a three goal start. This year's result tells me that the team has definitely improved but still has some serious work to do before becoming a contender.
i don't think anyone could say failure, unless they knew the boards thoughts on hiring him, and even most carlton fans don't know that (although they seem to think they do)
Just from reading this thread and a few from last year, i think there just might be a few carlton fans with a bit of doubt though.
getting the feel of what players are like is a bit of a laugh in my mind, if you hire a coach, i think you would expect him to have a pretty good idea of the list, most coaches would do their homework on a team they were about to take control of.
at this stage imo MM has done no better than Ratten, I would say Ratten is ahead
Just from reading this thread and a few from last year, i think there just might be a few carlton fans with a bit of doubt though.
getting the feel of what players are like is a bit of a laugh in my mind, if you hire a coach, i think you would expect him to have a pretty good idea of the list, most coaches would do their homework on a team they were about to take control of.
at this stage imo MM has done no better than Ratten, I would say Ratten is ahead
Theres nothing anti Carlton about saying that at this stage they have not advanced.
huge difference between knowing a list as an opposition coach and being head coach of that list.
what an absurd assertion.
Like who, Robert Walls? Any links?
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