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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Has Nic Naitanui Underachieved?
- Thread starter Mop
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If Allen surpasses JD then he has had a WCE HOF career.
JD will finish as our second greatest goal kicker while being an undersized KPF. He is criminally underrated by WCE fans.
The fact we only got 1 flag out of the era where we had the two best KPF in our club history and our best medium forward is a massive shame imo.
RookiePick
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Don't forget Jack has been second sausage to JK for the vast bulk of his career too.
Amazing really.
Geez if JD is the second sausage I'd hate to see the #1 sausage of my wife's dreams.
No. He came on early and had a few injury affected years towards the mid 2010's and just as he started going again he had 2 ACL injuries which effectively robbed his prime. After his second AA I thought he was cooked and best gonna be serviceable at best if he played on.
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3 x AA, 2 x Club Champion and 200+ games. Definitely hasn't underachieved.
Just unlucky that he copped a couple of bad injuries during his prime.
Only thing that he underachieved at would be his marking. With his leap, he should have half a dozen Mark Of The Year awards tucked away as well.
Just unlucky that he copped a couple of bad injuries during his prime.
Only thing that he underachieved at would be his marking. With his leap, he should have half a dozen Mark Of The Year awards tucked away as well.
I suppose if Cox is the standard then most ruckman are in trouble.
Thankfully I've made my opinion abundantly clear that Naitanui has indeed surpassed Cox (at least in regards to the role of ruckman) in other threads (see here for example).
As I am an advocate for Naitanui being the better player my answer to your question must be an emphatic "No".
Pre-knees he was a force to be reckoned with in the air (also hit the scoreboard effectively as well).
Post-knees that changed dramatically (not dissimilar to how Judd changed his game after his injuries in 2007).
Also, and this is relevant to this discussion, there is space between Naitanui and the next best player selected in the 2008 National Draft (whichever you decide is the next best player out of Sidebottom, Beams, Hannebery, Shuey, Sloane, Walters or Davis).
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shoutsatclouds
get off my lawn!
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Hey, that's my schtick
I wouldn't say he underachieved. Was an awesome player that paper over a lot of cracks (midfield)
For me the frustration has been his fitness and the inability to play 80% game time and forcing us to play 2 ruckman post Cox, which hurt our team balance/run
For me the frustration has been his fitness and the inability to play 80% game time and forcing us to play 2 ruckman post Cox, which hurt our team balance/run
I wouldn't say Nic would be as thin as he was at 24 had he not done his knee's but after those injuries he had to essentially adapt to being a different type of ruckmen. Also unlike cox and many of his current counter parts, Nic's style of general play is his heavily contested and quite taxing. Heck you'd say most pure inside mids in the comp aren't even great endurance wise.
That said I do think Nic could be a few kilo's lighter and be a bit fitter but I'm sure as hell glad we got to witness some of his best footy post 2 ACL's. A million times better than him be decent grifter that would be talked years after his retirement as a "what if?"
That said I do think Nic could be a few kilo's lighter and be a bit fitter but I'm sure as hell glad we got to witness some of his best footy post 2 ACL's. A million times better than him be decent grifter that would be talked years after his retirement as a "what if?"
Bit of selective history happening here.
Cox came to prominance as an elite ruckman of the AFL between 2004 - 2012.
Let's consider his "offsiders" during this time:
- in 2004 Mark Seaby played 17 games;
- in 2005 Mark Seaby played 19 games;
- in 2006 Mark Seaby played 23 games;
- in 2007 Mark Seaby played 24 games;
- in 2008 Mark Seaby played 14 games;
- in 2009 Mark Seaby played 5 games;
- in 2009 Nic Naitanui played 10 games;
- in 2010 Nic Naitanui played 22 games;
- in 2011 Nic Naitanui played 23 games;
- in 2012 Nic Naitanui played 22 games.
2008 was the year that Cox had the least support (with Lynch doing the chop out in most games Seaby didn't play in).
Worth noting how appallingly bad we were that year (not 2022 levels, but still awful). Incidentally this season is what opened the door for us to select Naitanui at the end of that year.
Suffice to say the argument is not that Cox allowed us to play with one ruckman (as he was almost always paired with another). It's just that the alternative to Naitanui over the past three and a half seasons has been so staggeringly poor that it is eminently noticeable when he is not at the coalface of the contest (as it was in the pre-season games over the last fortnight).
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It also wasn’t just the fact he did his knee twice, he did them in the absolute peak in that 26-28 range. In my thoughts it probably edges him to the rung below Dean Cox as our best ever ruckman. Which is a shame because I honestly think as a pure ruck he’s the best we will probably ever see.
When I think of our relative successful 2010’s it is the one thing I do look back with some sadness that missed out on 2 full years of him. He has made football exciting to watch all these years. He’d jump over someone’s head one week, do something amazing but then also carry us the next with his immaculate ruckwork.
But, the Nic we got on return from his knee injuries, with all the talk of him being a “compromised” athlete, has been nothing short of exceptional. Twice AA in the 2 years after is a remarkable achievement. It’s been an absolute privilege to watch.
I also am looking forward to Nic going full Shane Mumford these last few years. Our younger mids will walk taller for it.
When I think of our relative successful 2010’s it is the one thing I do look back with some sadness that missed out on 2 full years of him. He has made football exciting to watch all these years. He’d jump over someone’s head one week, do something amazing but then also carry us the next with his immaculate ruckwork.
But, the Nic we got on return from his knee injuries, with all the talk of him being a “compromised” athlete, has been nothing short of exceptional. Twice AA in the 2 years after is a remarkable achievement. It’s been an absolute privilege to watch.
I also am looking forward to Nic going full Shane Mumford these last few years. Our younger mids will walk taller for it.
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I wonder if this thread would have been made had he not been injured and played in the 2018 grand final winning team. I'd say unlucky more than underachieved.
It doesn't require simplifying, I understand the question perfectly. His record speaks for itself in that regard hence my brief response. Multiple AAs and club champions after undergoing 2 knee reconstructions in his mid 20s (not as fast to heal as an 18year old) as a ruckman is unbelievable and speaks to the dedication and guts (bad pun) of the man to come back and get the best from himself and for his team... twice. Look at his 20 &21 seasons, he was the only one who really gave a shit and left everything on the field. For a fan to start a thread questioning that... well I made myself clear in my opening response.
The question you put in this quote is very different to the thread question. Comparing him to 2 other rucks has no bearing on whether he has under achieved or not. To answer this I would still take Nic first but I think opinions on that will vary widely and a good case can be made for all 3. But IMO give me Nic.
I don't think you can weigh in at 110kg+, and base your game around explosive high leaping and crash and bash impacts and then pretend you're just 'unlucky' with injuries. Simply put he's constantly injured because he's playing a brand of football that isn't sustainable for someone that weight.
It's not just about skinfolds, there was a point in his career, probably after the first knee went, where he and the coaches and trainers needed to sit down and think carefully about what style of play was going to keep him out on the park for 23 games a year and get the most out of his career, and design his training accordingly.
Simply put the ruckmen who play 250 games are the ones who shape their bodies around being able to run out games for four quarters and become proper endurance athletes. The reason Dean Cox was still a bit of a beanpole at the end of his career, because if you do 20 centre square leaps a game and run around a football field for 3 hours with a huge upper body and a bit of gut, your knees/ankles/hamstrings will be cooked well before you're thirty. Given what an impressive explosive athlete naitanui is, he could probably have shed 5-10kg of muscle and still had an edge over most when it came to power and leap, but as part of a far more well rounded, more durable 4 quarter game.
I don't know how much is nicnats own choice and how much is the club's, but in retrospect the choice to ever use him as a burst, clearance specialist player and build his body accordingly was a terrible one. You can't design a team around a player and strategy that will inevitably break down 2-3 times a year.
And similarly, whilst you have to respect him for always putting his hand up to play, usually because west coast desperately needed him back asap, in retrospect he has played far too many games when he was underdone and unfit.
There's only so many times you can rush someone back into the team after a few quarters with Swan districts and still say their injuries are due to bad luck.
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Mop
Not anymore
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This has turned out to be an interesting discussion actually.
Kegs15
Just a fan
I suppose it's about how you define 'unachieved'.
I definitely don't buy into the whole fat bashing thing or that he hasn't worked hard enough, he's such a competitor I trust him to have gotten the best out of himself given the hand he was dealt (and probably factoring in the advice of S+C/coaches which we'll never know in hindsight what the best approach with all that would have been - but it'd be foolish to definitively say they got it 100% right or wrong).
So in that sense he hasn't underachieved at all.
But another way to look at it would be if we're factoring in elements outside his control (footy gods stuff). If you could magically make a player never miss a game in their entire career/never have niggles, I don't think the difference between magic Gawn/Cox and actual Gawn/Cox would be that great. (Probably the same with GAJ minus his shoulder at GC). They weren't physically ready to actually play well early in their careers and whilst they might have got another All Australian with no injuries I don't think their impact or standing in the game would be drastically different.
However, similar to Judd if we didn't screw his groin coming into his prime years, if NN magically played his whole career with no injuries or niggles I think he could have been up there in best player of the era territory. Even aside from missing his probable peak years with the ACLs, looking at that injury list Keys posted it'd be hard to argue his running and match continuity wasn't always at some point being hampered throughout his career, even without missing games or even if it was just reduced running loads to prevent injury.
Remove every injury and you've got a player that'd have the build up and confidence to build that aerobic capacity, and to not have to develop his game and training around being injury preventative. You potentially get 4-5 years of the consistently hitout/contest winning, hyper intelligent physical beast he was in the 20-21 AA seasons combined with the full ground runs, flying marks, unbelievable swervability and ability to rest forward instead of on the bench that you had in his earlier days.
Obviously with a power athlete like that magic would be the only way to actually have a truly injury free career but a real example might be Buddy Franklin, who's been unbelievably durable for someone with that athletic build and whilst he's had a few setbacks, I don't think they've necessarily limited the type of player he's sculpted himself into. If NN had had a similar enough run where he'd be likely to retire on 350+ games by the end of it all I genuinely think he'd be in those same conversations as Buddy. With the hands he's been dealt I don't think he's underachieved but has his career actually reached the upper limit of his potential? I'm less sure
I definitely don't buy into the whole fat bashing thing or that he hasn't worked hard enough, he's such a competitor I trust him to have gotten the best out of himself given the hand he was dealt (and probably factoring in the advice of S+C/coaches which we'll never know in hindsight what the best approach with all that would have been - but it'd be foolish to definitively say they got it 100% right or wrong).
So in that sense he hasn't underachieved at all.
But another way to look at it would be if we're factoring in elements outside his control (footy gods stuff). If you could magically make a player never miss a game in their entire career/never have niggles, I don't think the difference between magic Gawn/Cox and actual Gawn/Cox would be that great. (Probably the same with GAJ minus his shoulder at GC). They weren't physically ready to actually play well early in their careers and whilst they might have got another All Australian with no injuries I don't think their impact or standing in the game would be drastically different.
However, similar to Judd if we didn't screw his groin coming into his prime years, if NN magically played his whole career with no injuries or niggles I think he could have been up there in best player of the era territory. Even aside from missing his probable peak years with the ACLs, looking at that injury list Keys posted it'd be hard to argue his running and match continuity wasn't always at some point being hampered throughout his career, even without missing games or even if it was just reduced running loads to prevent injury.
Remove every injury and you've got a player that'd have the build up and confidence to build that aerobic capacity, and to not have to develop his game and training around being injury preventative. You potentially get 4-5 years of the consistently hitout/contest winning, hyper intelligent physical beast he was in the 20-21 AA seasons combined with the full ground runs, flying marks, unbelievable swervability and ability to rest forward instead of on the bench that you had in his earlier days.
Obviously with a power athlete like that magic would be the only way to actually have a truly injury free career but a real example might be Buddy Franklin, who's been unbelievably durable for someone with that athletic build and whilst he's had a few setbacks, I don't think they've necessarily limited the type of player he's sculpted himself into. If NN had had a similar enough run where he'd be likely to retire on 350+ games by the end of it all I genuinely think he'd be in those same conversations as Buddy. With the hands he's been dealt I don't think he's underachieved but has his career actually reached the upper limit of his potential? I'm less sure
