Society/Culture Has society become better or worse over the past 30 years?

[evolved2]

Who said I 'want' them to accept minimum wage?

If that wasn't your point, this is your opportunity to clearly state your intentions. I'm all ears.

You're making the argument that regional businesses should simply 'pay more' but as often happens, people completely ignore the other side of the equation - where that money comes from?

Owning a business doesn't just suddenly allow one to print money, plenty of small businesses (I've expect most regional businesses to be small businesses) don't have huge bottom lines to offer compelling salary packages to.

I'm sure your next argument will be 'well they shouldn't run a business' because that's always the next argument.

In order to pay staff more the money has to come from <somewhere>. In a large multi-billion dollar business, sure they can simply find it. In a small locally owned business like we see in many regional locations, they don't necessarily have extra money in the business, so have to charge more for their products or services to support paying a higher wage.

There's nothing wrong with wanting workers to be paid more, but at least take a moment to think through 'how' that happens.

Same as the award wage increases each year, that money has to actually come from somewhere, such as the customers. Same as the increase in superannuation contributions.

People often have these discussions assuming all businesses are like your multinationals with staggering amounts of revenue and profits but completely ignore the rest of the business environment, especially in regional areas which you brought up where I'd expect many would fall in to the micro-business category.

Research

Research

www.aph.gov.au

Multi-billion dollar businesses have to balance the books too. And yes, they cry poor whenever payrises are brought up. I work for a multinational that raked in record profits during covid, and they still cry poor. My experience with small business was even worse because your salary increase means the owner has to buy a lexus instead of a porsche.

Spare me the crocodile tears. Paying $2-5 more per hour means sfa to most small businesses, especially in the post-covid economy.

 

[faible]

My experience with small business was even worse because your salary increase means the owner has to buy a lexus instead of a porsche.

Spare me the crocodile tears. Paying $2-5 more per hour means sfa to most small businesses, especially in the post-covid economy.

As someone with close relatives who run a micro-business in a regional area, you're wrong.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle? I'm sure there's data somewhere that would give the mean, median and SD for small/micro businesses.

 

[faible]

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle? I'm sure there's data somewhere that would give the mean, median and SD for small/micro businesses.

I'm sure there's plenty - hospitality industry I'm looking at you - that rely on underpaying staff to exist, though there's also an issue there where the award is written for a Monday-Friday pay week but us as customers demand our Sunday morning breakfast, but also complain about Sunday surcharges. But there's plenty of small businesses that the owners work in that simply don't have the ability to drastically overpay staff to lure them to the area.

The idea that 'business' is some homogenous mass where the multi-billion dollar corporates and the mum and dad fish and chip shop are the same is always a bizarre one when people roll out these arguments.

'Pay staff more' is a nice idea in theory, but in reality not every organisation can just magic up the money, and not every town can afford to pay more at the local shops to fund it.

From memory Lorne over summer had massive issues getting hospitality workers because all the usual hostel and caravan park accomodation prices had skyrocketed, so we're not talking a couple of dollars an hour being the difference between affording accomodation or not there.

 

[peetoo]

1993 to 2023?

Probably hit the high point just before those planes slammed the WTC

 

[Crankyhawk]

I don’t know about society in general but I want to do extremely painful and degrading things to the piece of shut that exercised choice to do this

Murder charges laid after paramedic was fatally stabbed at McDonald's in Sydney

A 21-year-old man was arrested at the scene in Campbelltown after the early morning incident.

www.abc.net.au

And this on the back of some useless mouth breather of a 17 year old deciding to stab a doctor at Burnie hospital where he had to have emergency surgery to drain bleeding around the heart

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah, those extra few dollars an hour will really hurt small business. Pfft.

Why do you want workers to accept minimum wage when they can get more elsewhere?

It also doesn’t answer the issue of where the workers live if there’s no long term local rental or housing.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

I think overall it's "better" but there are some significant drawbacks.

I'm not anti technology but I'm concerned about the mental health consequences of all these cheap dopamine hits you can get now from tiktok, youtube shorts etc. I'm not a psychiatrist but it seems like it must be horrible for a child / teenagers developing brain, and could rewire the reward circuitry in their brain to continue craving this instant gratification stuff and lead to addiction and other mental health issues. pr0n would be similar, and gaming to an extent. I feel like my own attention span and focus have gone to s**t since smartphobes came out, hopefully we're not producing a generation of ADHD suffering zombies.

Then again, people said the same crap when I was a kid but about free to air TV, walkmans etc. I feel like this time is different though because endless entertainment is on offer 24 7 now, right there in our pocket. It's important to live mindfully in the moment sometimes but now people won't even take a dump without doom scrolling socials.

The shift towards unstable gig economy type jobs isn't great.

Stuff like self checkouts mean less working class jobs available and requires extra effort from the paying customer (for no discount or other benefit).

Some significant pros are:
Less discrimination overall
Less poverty
Better medicine
Less war (and violence in general... I think?)
Safer vehicles

Both my daughters have casual jobs at Coles here in Ballarat, it's a brand new store and it has regular self serve and the new ones with their own belts.

They aren't costing jobs because there's twice as many people now doing click and collect shopping. The old checkout operators have just been redeployed.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

I'm sure there's plenty - hospitality industry I'm looking at you - that rely on underpaying staff to exist, though there's also an issue there where the award is written for a Monday-Friday pay week but us as customers demand our Sunday morning breakfast, but also complain about Sunday surcharges. But there's plenty of small businesses that the owners work in that simply don't have the ability to drastically overpay staff to lure them to the area.

The idea that 'business' is some homogenous mass where the multi-billion dollar corporates and the mum and dad fish and chip shop are the same is always a bizarre one when people roll out these arguments.

'Pay staff more' is a nice idea in theory, but in reality not every organisation can just magic up the money, and not every town can afford to pay more at the local shops to fund it.

From memory Lorne over summer had massive issues getting hospitality workers because all the usual hostel and caravan park accomodation prices had skyrocketed, so we're not talking a couple of dollars an hour being the difference between affording accomodation or not there.

Correct, paying someone an extra $2 ph makes zero difference to someone who can't find anywhere to live.

 

[footyfan1978]

Both my daughters have casual jobs at Coles here in Ballarat, it's a brand new store and it has regular self serve and the new ones with their own belts.

They aren't costing jobs because there's twice as many people now doing click and collect shopping. The old checkout operators have just been redeployed.

Probably one of the few improvements in society. Check out operators would be a terrible job. The more we do our own shopping and transactions the less ridiculous agro towards those old checkout operators. It far better doing my own self serve where pack it myself and scan it myself. If we ever need help there still a staff member usually around to help.
A local IGA supermarkets is shit for self serve though. Their weigh machines are just shit and do not work so if you try to use it yourself it always has errors so you learn no point using it.

 

[evolved2]

Probably one of the few improvements in society. Check out operators would be a terrible job. The more we do our own shopping and transactions the less ridiculous agro towards those old checkout operators. It far better doing my own self serve where pack it myself and scan it myself. If we ever need help there still a staff member usually around to help.
A local IGA supermarkets is s**t for self serve though. Their weigh machines are just s**t and do not work so if you try to use it yourself it always has errors so you learn no point using it.

Disagree. I'd rather pay a couple % extra to give kids a job. Those self check-ins at Colesworth (and McDonalds) are ****ing shit too.

The move towards automation is only depriving teens of opportunities to get their foot in the door. All to save what, paying a couple more cashiers $20/hr?

 

[footyfan1978]

Disagree. I'd rather pay a couple % extra to give kids a job.

The move towards automation is only depriving teens of opportunities to get their foot in the door. All to save what, paying a couple more cashiers $20/hr?

nah, think you talking nonsense. Better things for kids to do than crap check out job. As someone said earlier, click and collect needs staff so kids can do that stuff or fill shelves etc etc.

 

[evolved2]

nah, think you talking nonsense. Better things for kids to do than crap check out job. As someone said earlier, click and collect needs staff so kids can do that stuff or fill shelves etc etc.

Kids filled shelves before self checkouts were a thing.

If you guys think Colesworth are just redeploying staff, I have a bridge for sale.

 

[footyfan1978]

Kids filled shelves before self checkouts were a thing.

If you guys think Colesworth are just redeploying staff, I have a bridge for sale.

Your bridge will have no sale here.
Yes, kids did fill some shelves before self check outs were a thing. But now they can fill more of it and have less empty spots on shelf than their used to be that was part of reason for angry customers for check out people to deal with.
When I go shopping in Coles like I did yesterday, there all these kids or young uni students running around with trolleys for click and collect customers. Better job for kids to do than the old check out jobs dealing with angry customers. Those jobs never used to be there but are now.

 

[evolved2]

Your bridge will have no sale here.
Yes, kids did fill some shelves before self check outs were a thing. But now they can fill more of it and have less empty spots on shelf than their used to be that was part of reason for angry customers for check out people to deal with.
When I go shopping in Coles like I did yesterday, there all these kids or young uni students running around with trolleys for click and collect customers. Better job for kids to do than the old check out jobs dealing with angry customers. Those jobs never used to be there but are now.

Nonsense. You've already bought the bridge.

Colesworth introduced automation out of the goodness of their hearts and respect for customer satisfaction, not to save $$$. Yeah?

I'm done with this thread for the time being.

 

[footyfan1978]

Nonsense. You've already bought the bridge.

No sale...ha ha
You still stuck with your bridge.

I will sell you another one if you already believe this nonsense.
"Colesworth introduced automation out of the goodness of their hearts and respect for customer satisfaction, not to save $$$."

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Your bridge will have no sale here.
Yes, kids did fill some shelves before self check outs were a thing. But now they can fill more of it and have less empty spots on shelf than their used to be that was part of reason for angry customers for check out people to deal with.
When I go shopping in Coles like I did yesterday, there all these kids or young uni students running around with trolleys for click and collect customers. Better job for kids to do than the old check out jobs dealing with angry customers. Those jobs never used to be there but are now.

Why do you think Coles introduced self checkouts if not to reduce their ongoing overheads?

 

[footyfan1978]

Why do you think Coles introduced self checkouts if not to reduce their ongoing overheads?

I never said I think they do. Amused someone assumed that.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

I never said I think they do. Amused someone assumed that.

I'm just curious as to how you've arrived at the end state that Coles didn't reduce their overall workforce with the automation of checkouts.

I understand you're talking about click and collect, but considering click and collect is a $5 service, I'm unsure how you've arrived at the conclusion that Coles retained its entire check out workforce and redeployed them in that role.

Doesn't really make economic sense, but anyways we might be getting off topic.

 

[footyfan1978]

I'm just curious as to how you've arrived at the end state that Coles didn't reduce their overall workforce with the automation of checkouts.

I understand you're talking about click and collect, but considering click and collect is a $5 service, I'm unsure how you've arrived at the conclusion that Coles retained its entire check out workforce and redeployed them in that role.

Doesn't really make economic sense, but anyways we might be getting off topic.

I am really just saying there is no lack of jobs there.
Some roles that used to exist are reduced as not needed and others that never used to exist are there and imo, the ones that are new are not as horrid.

So in context of thread title, that is something better.

 

[peetoo]

Maybe self checkouts are less embarrassing for customers on the poverty line who have to put something back, or scrap around maxed out credit cards?

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Kids filled shelves before self checkouts were a thing.

If you guys think Colesworth are just redeploying staff, I have a bridge for sale.

If you think they aren't I have one to sell you back.

Neither of the 2 stores my girls have worked at can get enough staff to do the click and collect work.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Nice of Colesworth to send a couple of shills here to defend the indefensible lol. "Supplying your own bags and labour at the checkout so that we can employ less people is akshually good for everyone" lmao.

 

[T2B_]

Worse, generally.

We have many, many quality of life improvements. That comes with the constantly improving technology and global connectivity, access to knowledge etc. But society itself has had some major regressions, IMO, or at least what we're exposed to on toxic social media like TikTok etc. The inmates run the asylum way too often. And then the political fracturing that has led to the rise of both the far right and far left, each terrible in their own right. And heaven forbid if you're just a moderate or centre right/left, you'll get bashed by both extreme sides and labelled a fence sitter. Modern tribal warfare, really.

The whole "that's gay" thing is interesting. No doubt it would have had unpleasant origins, but as a kid I seem to remember it taking on a life of it's own. We had gay friends and family in our circles, of which I can't remember anyone having any issue with, but saying something was gay or was "being gay" (eg "sorry I can't text, my phone is being gay"), for example, seemed to take on its own meaning. Not saying it's right, but I definitely remember there being a disconnect between the usage and actually being intentionally homophobic. I think South Park had an episode that touched on it.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Why do you think Coles introduced self checkouts if not to reduce their ongoing overheads?

That's what they did initially introduce them for years ago but COVID has turned that all on it's head with the explosion of people now doing their groceries online and either picking it up or having it delivered.

I couldn't care less one way or another but common sense should tell you that having someone walking around a store with a trolley and ipad doing your groceries for you then packing it ready to be picked up or delivered is more labour intensive / less efficient than someone just standing at a register shovelling stuff through after you've loaded it up for them.

They all have to provide the online option now because that's what people expect, if they don't they'll get left behind.

In the future I see grocery shopping being just like Amazon, a huge warehouse that you can't go into, just people picking and packing our online orders.

Me, I prefer the self serve registers with their own conveyor belts.