News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Adrian Dodoro]

I'm not sure about everyone else but the nausea and my emotions have not let up all day.

I am not intending to spin any of this. These are simply takeaways from the Reeves press conference and the GF lunch that settled me in the way of: ruling out a couple of horrendous possibilities, knowing that the club made some contrusctive and respectful actions, reason to believe the right people are in place to deal with the situation.

• Reeves acknowledged the systemic racism present in the entire country
• The club has already spoken to our current First Nations players about the investigation and their cultral safety
• Reeves has already spoken to atleast one of our current First Nations players today, after the ABC report was published
• Sam Mitchell informed Reeves that he did not have knowledge of what the ABC reported had transpired
• The parties mentioned in the ABC report were already contacted by the club and offered support before the article was published
• The club has already commenced support of the relevant parties, recompense was supplied to one of the individuals as early as a Wednesday last week
• Burgoyne stated he did not have knowledge of what the ABC reported had transpired and added that if he did, he would have tried to help
• Burgoyne has confirmed he has been a part of the external investigation

I can't bear to think whats to come, but I hope the people currently at our club appreciate that this is more important than premiership points and much bigger than football. If they do, they'll have my support and I'll ride the bumps.

I hope everyone is doing ok.

 

[Bad Boy Beama]

Serious question. Whether it’s true or not how do you prove this to a point where you sack coaches. It’s all hearsay. In no way I’m I accusing people of lying or anything but how can you prove that. Unless there’s video or emails with the person stating that how can you prove this sort of thing.

In the article one of the women actually talked about having emails and phone calls documented.

 

[mookieb]

When I say “make”, I mean them providing some context to try and justify their perspective of what happened (I know this sounds ludicrous)

So what is everyone's view if Clarko and Fagan come out and said they sat down with the players and talked through all the alternatives (including abortion)?

I mean it's not an uncommon source of discussion in certain circumstances and it's a lot different to telling someone that they should abort.

 

[Bugs1977]

Let's all be calm about this..................... Sure it is a dreadful thing. sexism homophobia racism are all methods which have been used since time immorial to control the population, to style it in a way deemed best for society. Believe me this behavior is not limited to our first nation players, but is applied evenly across the spectrum. It is dreadful and it must be stopped...............across all society.

I find t his particular case heartbreaking when I think of some of our wonderful first nation people who have played in our game and in our club, but of truel calm considered action is required not a lynching mob

I'm feeling just as ashamed as all HFC supporters today but like you I have refrained to comment until we hear from the people that have been accused of such disturbing things. I really am in utter disbelief atm.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[Stars align]

In the article one of the women actually talked about having emails and phone calls documented.

Is the understanding that these emails and phone calls were submitted as part of the review?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So what is everyone's view if Clarko and Fagan come out and said they sat down with the players and talked through all the alternatives (including abortion)?

My view would be “why the **** were they even having that conversation?”.

That’s not a discussion for coaches to be having with players.

 

[TylerDurden]

I've copped the pile on all day from oppo mates.
Putting * next to our 4 flags.
Saying Gil will erase them from being official.

Tall poppy syndrome alive and well in Australia today. So many people hate our club's success it's not funny.

 

[Bugs1977]

I'll always love the club.
But you need to separate the individual from the club. If this was all Clarko, then it's a Clarko issue.
To be frank, he had way too much power as the years went on.

I'll think you find a lot of comments by oppo fans online already seem to be pointing that way. This by no means makes it any better for us because Clarko was and always be a huge part of our clubs history. My gut feel in all this is Fagan is innocent in this. No evidence there just a gut feel.

 

[Hawk1986]

That press conference didn’t fill me with significant confidence in our current leadership. Saying we are disappointed that people “feel” this way (in a prepared statement) falls short of an unreserved apology. Think we have failed twice in our comms today to fully acknowledge the hurt we have caused.

 

[mookieb]

My view would be “why the * were they even having that conversation?”.

That’s not a discussion for coaches to be having with players.

Surely clubs are like family to some of these players offering guidance. But a big difference if they were asked for advice compared to proffering what has been suggested in the news.

 

[Billyc]

Every hawks fan is struggling with this today and will reach their own landing.

For me, decency is far more important than loyalty. What is reported to have happened is so horrifyingly wrong that no sense of loyalty can defend it. A lot of sporting clubs, places of work, religions, schools, political parties etc have confronted horrible events and in response it’s important to do what is right over what is easy. That goes for fans, not just the club.

I don’t want to hear any excuses, any attempts to paint this as a media witch hunt or any half baked apologies - ie. “if I upset anyone…but my intentions were good.” Own it. Condemn it. Remove anyone involved and rebuild with serious reform. That’s the only way. Don’t do what Essendon and Adelaide did and turn it into a delusional fight with no accountability

It’s not easy to deal with abhorrent conduct by people you respected and a club you love. I am not sure of my end point on this, but for now, I am disgusted in the club and nothing other than the strongest possible response (which will include the termination and condemnation of anyone still remaining who had or should have had knowledge) will regain my trust, affection and support. I will email the club and will await its response with interest, though it will be the actions, not the words that matter

This is the club’s lowest ebb and it’s not something I have any interest in attaching myself to. Utterly shameful

 

[Crankyhawk]

Pardon the intrusion.

I work for an Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisation and have worked predominantly with Aboriginal people (with both professionals and clients) for around 15 years.

Just a couple of observations:

Kennett
There is simply no sense of 'pisstake'/dressing-down humour in the Aboriginal communities I've worked in. I've spent hundreds of hours in the community with Aboriginal men and they can laugh constantly from the start of the day until the end, but rarely at the expense of each other. There are deep cultural reasons for this that I'm not in a position to explain. The only time I've seen this occur is when two parties are extremely angry with one another and about to 'do battle' - the intention being to inflict pain on the other and their family.

Couple this with the collective sense of 'shame' in Aboriginal culture and mocking someone's appearance (torn jeans) in front of another Aboriginal person. The death nail would have been the use of loose change, offering money for that person to improve their appearance. Finally, the fact it came from a powerful White male would hold deep-seated colonial trauma. It's bizarre, because I've seen an extreme range of behaviours and terms used by Aboriginal people about each other and the non-Indigenous community, but the personal takedowns just do not seem to be in the vernacular (at the base level).

Kennett meant it as an off-hand joke, there was no malice and I believe that he would've said 3 million times in his life to a range of people. But that's the perspective I imagine may have been taken.

Pregnancy
Reading between the lines, I imagine that the relationship of 'Ian' and 'Amy' was deemed to be conflictual (possible DV, trauma, domestic arguments) and at some point the club felt the player's partner was the primary issue and that they needed to step in and resolve it. I imagine the player was extremely talented and had the potential to take the club to new heights - or they simply would have allowed the player time away and delisted them at season's end.

This is a mistake non-Indigenous people in power make time and time again - I've witnessed this heavily in the Child Protection and Justice system. A problem is identified, and a solution is actioned based on the decision of powerful non-Indigenous people (justified in the best interests of the afflicted party).

Again, the road to hell here is paved with good intentions - we as non-Indigenous people think of binary solutions that create exponential/logarithmic outcomes (i.e. cutting off the issue leads to X10 performance from our product). The binary thinking comes from a 'that party is the issue, and they must be stopped. Terminate, remove and cut-off is the way to address this. From there, our product will now meet another party who is a better influence. Their performance will multiply and we will consider this a success'.

An Aboriginal community response is much more layered - it involves a great deal of deep and reflective listening (dadirri), it involves a lot more family members and input, and the solutions are rarely linear and will unlikely align with a simple model of product success/failure. One thing I will say, is that every solution will likely include more family contact, connection and engagement. Not less. We as non-Aboriginal people are the experts at subtraction and removal (imprisonment, removal into care, removal of freedoms and liberties) which is what has been applied here.

Moral of the Story? I don't know if one, two or any of those people deserve to be sacked or cut off forever - none of your staff are individually morally corrupted. This is a deep-seated, systemic issue that's been in place since 1788. It involves hundreds of years of differently evolved thought and values between two cultures that couldn't be more different. All we need is more education and understanding to work through this over the coming generations. For God sake the majority of Aboriginal players in your State come from distances that would be considered from one end of Europe to the other, find ways of bringing in culture and Aboriginal people that are specific to their needs - it's 2022. And when things get really hairy, let them be the ones to form the circle, to start and finish their Yarns as their custom dictates.

I genuinely hope your club doesn't swing the axe here - try something that doesn't remove, subtract or eliminate. Trust me - It's been done.

Thank you for this perspective it was very valuable

 

[Mitchell Madness]

That press conference didn’t fill me with significant confidence in our current leadership. Saying we are disappointed that people “feel” this way (in a prepared statement) falls short of an unreserved apology. Think we have failed twice in our comms today to fully acknowledge the hurt we have caused.

Being a large organisation, you have to be very careful with your wording before anything is done.
One poor word ends up in a defamation lawsuit
It's crap, but it's the nature of the world.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That press conference didn’t fill me with significant confidence in our current leadership. Saying we are disappointed that people “feel” this way (in a prepared statement) falls short of an unreserved apology. Think we have failed twice in our comms today to fully acknowledge the hurt we have caused.

Any unreserved apology can be used in the future court cases, and admittance of guilt to worksafe and everyone else who will want their pound of flesh.

That’s why none was forthcoming.

Don’t underestimate how much of this could play out in court.

 

[Brishawk]

So what is everyone's view if Clarko and Fagan come out and said they sat down with the players and talked through all the alternatives (including abortion)?

I mean it's not an uncommon source of discussion in certain circumstances and it's a lot different to telling someone that they should abort.

As a manager of people I have had to have some deeply personal conversations with staff going through a hard time. I sure as shit would not be suggesting or raising the prospect of abortion. In no way am I qualified to discuss that topic and provide advice. Nor is Clarko or any other coach.

Most organisations have employee assistance programs which provide psychological and counselling services by paid professionals. In the absence of eap, it would be far more appropriate for the club doctor to discuss issues with players and refer them to an appropriate counselling service than for the coach to step in. Recall that the club has been connected to beyond blue through Kennett for more than a decade. It should be more aware than any other club about the importance of professional support and counselling.

 

[patmatcat]

The whole club has failed these men.

To finger point serves no purpose.

I also feel for those involved in compromised positions. These allegations would have a widespread impact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dayle Gartlett was avoided by every club but the Hawks.

The allegation of standing over a young indigenous woman and her partner and strongly suggesting an abortion is going to be the single allegation that makes or breaks Clarkson

AH mate - I'll assume what you're meaning by "this sort of thing" is a type of journalistic sensationalism.

I think that's really the wrong take here.

This article relays eye-witness testimony. I'm not sure what higher level of proof is required.

I'm all for hearing both sides of the story - but the only alternative views that I can imagine here are "it didn't happen" (in which case it's a matter of people literally making up scandalous lies) or "it wasn't meant to have that effect" (which is slightly less damaging but still).

I'm trying to imagine a perspective from Clarkson, Fagan or the club that would make me feel that nothing has wrong has happened here, or that it's a misunderstanding - but I can't come up with one.

Alleged drugs, violence and unplanned pregnancies would be extremely hard to navigate. Brisbane and Hawthorn players adore Clarko and Fagan, but clearly their management crossed boundaries.

 

[The hands of stone]

At times like this it's good to remind ourselves the club is always bigger than any individual - precisely why I supported Sam Mitchell being appointed coach despite many posters here insisting we should remain loyal to Clarko at all costs.

Hawthorn Football Club will be around for a long time yet and like all organisations evolves over time. Sadly this incident proves it's been lagging behind the times in some ways, but the fact these revelations are the product of an internal review suggests efforts are already being made to rectify that.

People absolutely need to hold the club to account for the actions of individuals who've tarnished its' name, but this isn't time to jump ship and desert an organisation that's given us so much joy over the years. Being a true supporter means sticking together through thick & thin so by all means demand a higher moral standard from those involved with the club, but don't forget all the wonderful memories Hawthorn has given us. This is still the family club.

Unfortunately I don't think referring to us as 'the family club' is really appropriate or on point given what has come out .
We as a club have failed in that and fallen well short.

We need to park that moniker aside and focus on getting better and healing these issues.

Agree with everything else youve said

 

[Messenger]

As a manager of people I have had to have some deeply personal conversations with staff going through a hard time. I sure as s**t would not be suggesting or raising the prospect of abortion. In no way am I qualified to discuss that topic and provide advice. Nor is Clarko or any other coach.

Most organisations have employee assistance programs which provide psychological and counselling services by paid professionals. In the absence of eap, it would be far more appropriate for the club doctor to discuss issues with players and refer them to an appropriate counselling service than for the coach to step in. Recall that the club has been connected to beyond blue through Kennett for more than a decade. It should be more aware than any other club about the importance of professional support and counselling.

Spot on. I manage a large team (170+ with 7 direct reports) and I cannot begin to tell you how far outside the line HFC were acting in these instances.

Reproductive and relationship choices are not the purview of an employer. Ever.

 

[Billyc]

I've copped the pile on all day from oppo mates.
Putting * next to our 4 flags.
Saying Gil will erase them from being official.

Tall poppy syndrome alive and well in Australia today. So many people hate our club's success it's not funny.

This has nothing to do with performance, so that stuff is just nonsense and speaks to the character of those involved trying to score points out of it.

This is much bigger than football performance. It’s more shameful and has a much larger impact on lives than mere cheating to win games of footy (like Essendon saga or past salary cap cheating by clubs etc, which were performance based)

 

[Hawk1986]

And unreserved apology can be used in the future court cases, and admittance of guilt to worksafe and everyone else who will want their pound of flesh.

That’s why none was forthcoming.

Don’t underestimate how much of this could play out in court.

In certain circumstances (like this), you need to do what is fundamentally right, not continue to serve your organisations best interests.

I still believe the lackluster nature of our formal responses today are more to do with incompetence rather than legality.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

In certain circumstances (like this), you need to do what is fundamentally right, not continue to serve your organisations best interests.

I still believe the lackluster nature of our formal responses today are more to do with incompetence rather than legality.

I’d say it’s most likely both.

 

[theiaofseed]

Any unreserved apology can be used in the future court cases, and admittance of guilt to worksafe and everyone else who will want their pound of flesh.

That’s why none was forthcoming.

Don’t underestimate how much of this could play out in court.

Anyone that wants an apology or forthcoming openness can just forget about it, people will be gagged by lawyers and all of this will play out in court proceedings.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

In the article one of the women actually talked about having emails and phone calls documented.

Emails? Jesus - who was stupid enough to put this shit in writing?

 

[Dewyyyyy]