News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Kennett is overseas at the moment so probably understandable why he isn't.

Ahh completely understandable then.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

We don’t live in a world where both sides are relevant anymore.

The racist side isn't valid.

 

[H00t]

Doesn't matter.
The stolen generations were inflicted by people trying to help.
It didn't.

The old saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”

Even if they meant well it’s still a horrific thing to do.

Problem for me is I’m having trouble seeing the good intentions in this. It seems the coaches were acting in the interests of the footy club regardless of the welfare of the players rather than helping the players which in turn will improve the club.

 

[Hawkas1988]

I'm ashamed that the individuals are so heavily involved in the successful era of the Hawthorn football club.

Am I ashamed in general at the Hawthorn football club? No. That isn't fair on Sam and the current playing group. Or the people involved back then who had no idea what had taken place.

What these individuals are being accused of is despicable. These individuals were representing the HFC. This sticks to the HFC. Tarnishes the club. It is a HFC problem to deal with and let's be honest we don't have the best history/culture in regards to indigenous matters (our drafting "rules" for example).

I'm not throwing my membership away and I will of course still support the team and Sam.

That doesn't stop me from being ashamed that our club is linked with these disgusting allegations.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

 

[WestCoast05]

Curious if you were playing the 'now now, let's wait until James Hird and the *34 have their day in courts shall we' card when it came to the doping regime?

Just you wait until James Hird does finally tell his story...


** sorry I can't help myself, I HAVE to write something like that whenever there is an opportunity

 

[Westcoast88]

We don’t live in a world where both sides are relevant anymore.

The evidence is pretty damming. Time to pull your head out of the sand and accept the disgrace. This is the most disgraceful thing a club has done that I can remember. Shame on your football club.

 

[HedgeFund]

Serious question. Whether it’s true or not how do you prove this to a point where you sack coaches. It’s all hearsay. In no way I’m I accusing people of lying or anything but how can you prove that. Unless there’s video or emails with the person stating that how can you prove this sort of thing.

It’s not hearsay if it’s a conversation between the complainant and the accused. That’s admissible as evidence as an exception to the hearsay rule. The accused is entitled to put their version of events forward and (perhaps) seek to rebut the claim.

Standard of proof at tribunals is on the balance of probabilities (ie. more probable than not) as opposed to the higher criminal standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

In short, if the accused denies it, but his explanation is less believable than the accusation, it’s a good chance there’s an adverse finding and that could result in de-registration as a coach.

 

[Bedi]

Ahh completely understandable then.

he doesn't hold a hose, mate.

 

[HairyO]

Curious if you were playing the 'now now, let's wait until James Hird and the *34 have their day in courts shall we' card when it came to the doping regime?

They had many, many days in various courts. As was their right. And they lost them all, other than the kangaroo one the AFL set up.

It was also the Australian Crime Commission and ASADA making the accusations, not 3 former players.

 

[Bedi]

Much easier for Fagan to stand down now they didn't make the grand final. Can't imagine it happening otherwise

 

[Ned Ryerson]

They had many, many days in various courts. As was their right. And they lost them all, other than the kangaroo one the AFL set up.

It was also the Australian Crime Commission and ASADA making the accusations, not 3 former players.

Right - my point is that didn't stop many of us gleefully believing the evidence as presented in the media when it suited our dislike of that club. My point is you can't happily take the media reports of 2012-2013 against * at face value and enjoy the schadenfreude but then turn around now and say 'now there are two sides here!!'.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I know I am considered uneducated on these matters but I am struggling to understand how these relate to racism? I'm not being a smartarse - this story is absolutely outrageous and comically evil if true- but why is it any worse if they players in question were indigenous? I Just don't see how being aboriginal had anything to do with the actions of the coaches- Perhaps cultural misunderstandings played a part but "RACISM" seems to be the main issue plastered in the headlines whereas I see a million issues with this news yet racism never came to mind whilst reading it. As I said I'm not trying to be a smartarse I just wish to know. Coercing players into an abortion or to leave their partners is unsettling enough not sure why Racism is the issue here

Mate you are using a profile pic featuring a far-right racist cartoon and playing the 'I swear I am not being racist' card. Go back to your board thanks.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[buckleyist1958]

Mate you are using a profile pic featuring a far-right racist cartoon and playing the 'I swear I am not being racist card'. Go back to your board thanks.

what? what are you on about? I'm asking a question- and Im not sure what you mean by far-right cartoon.

 

[Westcoast88]

I know I am considered uneducated on these matters but I am struggling to understand how these relate to racism? I'm not being a smartarse - this story is absolutely outrageous and comically evil if true- but why is it any worse if they players in question were indigenous? I Just don't see how being aboriginal had anything to do with the actions of the coaches- Perhaps cultural misunderstandings played a part but "RACISM" seems to be the main issue plastered in the headlines whereas I see a million issues with this news yet racism never came to mind whilst reading it. As I said I'm not trying to be a smartarse I just wish to know. Coercing players into an abortion or to leave their partners is unsettling enough not sure why Racism is the issue here

Mate do you think they were taking the white players sim cards. There's a stigma attached to abororignal players in the afl we all know it. Dont talk to family ? Change your phone number. Cmon they are taking unfair measures to prevent indigenous players returning home or speaking to their family because they see it as a risk. Whether it is a risk or not you can't apply additional rules for them because that's racism. The rioli kennet stuff fair enough maybe it's not the same but this looks terrible.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

what? what are you on about? I'm asking a question- and Im not sure what you mean by far-right cartoon.

I said my piece. It's not our board's job to educate you - and I don't remotely believe you are here in good faith. Feel free to play dumb on your board.

 

[HairyO]

Right - my point is that didn't stop many of us gleefully believing the evidence as presented in the media when it suited our dislike of that club. My point is you can't happily take the media reports of 2012-2013 against * at face value and enjoy the schadenfreude but then turn around now and say 'now there are two sides here!!'.

For sure, and there are plenty lining up to take pot shots at anyone. Including Kennett who quite likely wasnt even President at the time.

But as I said, the Australian Crime Commission and ASADA were involved and they had evidence, which is very different to 3 unknown former players making claims.

Those claims may turn out to be 100% true. And if so, those involved should be banished forever. But at the moment we dont even know the specifics of the claims, nor even the context of the claims.

 

[A Cut Above]

At times like this it's good to remind ourselves the club is always bigger than any individual - precisely why I supported Sam Mitchell being appointed coach despite many posters here insisting we should remain loyal to Clarko at all costs.

Hawthorn Football Club will be around for a long time yet and like all organisations evolves over time. Sadly this incident proves it's been lagging behind the times in some ways, but the fact these revelations are the product of an internal review suggests efforts are already being made to rectify that.

People absolutely need to hold the club to account for the actions of individuals who've tarnished its' name, but this isn't time to jump ship and desert an organisation that's given us so much joy over the years. Being a true supporter means sticking together through thick & thin so by all means demand a higher moral standard from those involved with the club, but don't forget all the wonderful memories Hawthorn has given us. This is still the family club.

 

[HedgeFund]

I know I am considered uneducated on these matters but I am struggling to understand how these relate to racism? I'm not being a smartarse - this story is absolutely outrageous and comically evil if true- but why is it any worse if they players in question were indigenous? I Just don't see how being aboriginal had anything to do with the actions of the coaches- Perhaps cultural misunderstandings played a part but "RACISM" seems to be the main issue plastered in the headlines whereas I see a million issues with this news yet racism never came to mind whilst reading it. As I said I'm not trying to be a smartarse I just wish to know. Coercing players into an abortion or to leave their partners is unsettling enough not sure why Racism is the issue here

Totally agree it’s unsettling regardless. However, there’s nothing to suggest non-Indigenous players were subjected to these “standover tactics” by the football department.

Hence the additional spectre of racial targeting in the strategy.

 

[Bardo State]

I know I am considered uneducated on these matters but I am struggling to understand how these relate to racism? I'm not being a smartarse - this story is absolutely outrageous and comically evil if true- but why is it any worse if they players in question were indigenous? I Just don't see how being aboriginal had anything to do with the actions of the coaches- Perhaps cultural misunderstandings played a part but "RACISM" seems to be the main issue plastered in the headlines whereas I see a million issues with this news yet racism never came to mind whilst reading it. As I said I'm not trying to be a smartarse I just wish to know. Coercing players into an abortion or to leave their partners is unsettling enough not sure why Racism is the issue here

Not a smartarse but your profile pic is taken from a racist 4chan meme. Start there mate. Piss off.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

My wife used the perfect word for this:

Paternalistic

Crazy invasion of someone’s personal life and family.

Call me nuts but I always got that kind of vibe from Clarko during his time at the Hawks. Like having a boss who is way too interested in your personal life (I have lived that experience and it's not fun).

I've said it before on this forum but once again I am not sure the Kangas really did their due diligence in hiring Clarko.

Not so much his coaching ability (his record speaks for itself) but he seems to be someone who doesn't impose limits on himself (remember him going off at a junior umpire at an under 10 match?). And he seems to have gotten worse nd worse over the years based on what I have heard from Hodgey.

Fagan I am genuinely surprised at.

 

[RX Hawk]

Everybody knew Shaun was very close to Clarkson so may be they didn't trust him to share their woes. Shaun said the same thing when asked about Cyril incident some time back too.

 

[Kanga Commando]

Pardon the intrusion.

I work for an Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisation and have worked predominantly with Aboriginal people (with both professionals and clients) for around 15 years.

Just a couple of observations:

Kennett
There is simply no sense of 'pisstake'/dressing-down humour in the Aboriginal communities I've worked in. I've spent hundreds of hours in the community with Aboriginal men and they can laugh constantly from the start of the day until the end, but rarely at the expense of each other. There are deep cultural reasons for this that I'm not in a position to explain. The only time I've seen this occur is when two parties are extremely angry with one another and about to 'do battle' - the intention being to inflict pain on the other and their family.

Couple this with the collective sense of 'shame' in Aboriginal culture and mocking someone's appearance (torn jeans) in front of another Aboriginal person. The death nail would have been the use of loose change, offering money for that person to improve their appearance. Finally, the fact it came from a powerful White male would hold deep-seated colonial trauma. It's bizarre, because I've seen an extreme range of behaviours and terms used by Aboriginal people about each other and the non-Indigenous community, but the personal takedowns just do not seem to be in the vernacular (at the base level).

Kennett meant it as an off-hand joke, there was no malice and I believe that he would've said 3 million times in his life to a range of people. But that's the perspective I imagine may have been taken.

Pregnancy
Reading between the lines, I imagine that the relationship of 'Ian' and 'Amy' was deemed to be conflictual (possible DV, trauma, domestic arguments) and at some point the club felt the player's partner was the primary issue and that they needed to step in and resolve it. I imagine the player was extremely talented and had the potential to take the club to new heights - or they simply would have allowed the player time away and delisted them at season's end.

This is a mistake non-Indigenous people in power make time and time again - I've witnessed this heavily in the Child Protection and Justice system. A problem is identified, and a solution is actioned based on the decision of powerful non-Indigenous people (justified in the best interests of the afflicted party).

Again, the road to hell here is paved with good intentions - we as non-Indigenous people think of binary solutions that create exponential/logarithmic outcomes (i.e. cutting off the issue leads to X10 performance from our product). The binary thinking comes from a 'that party is the issue, and they must be stopped. Terminate, remove and cut-off is the way to address this. From there, our product will now meet another party who is a better influence. Their performance will multiply and we will consider this a success'.

An Aboriginal community response is much more layered - it involves a great deal of deep and reflective listening (dadirri), it involves a lot more family members and input, and the solutions are rarely linear and will unlikely align with a simple model of product success/failure. One thing I will say, is that every solution will likely include more family contact, connection and engagement. Not less. We as non-Aboriginal people are the experts at subtraction and removal (imprisonment, removal into care, removal of freedoms and liberties) which is what has been applied here.

Moral of the Story? I don't know if one, two or any of those people deserve to be sacked or cut off forever - none of your staff are individually morally corrupted. This is a deep-seated, systemic issue that's been in place since 1788. It involves hundreds of years of differently evolved thought and values between two cultures that couldn't be more different. All we need is more education and understanding to work through this over the coming generations. For God sake the majority of Aboriginal players in your State come from distances that would be considered from one end of Europe to the other, find ways of bringing in culture and Aboriginal people that are specific to their needs - it's 2022. And when things get really hairy, let them be the ones to form the circle, to start and finish their Yarns as their custom dictates.

I genuinely hope your club doesn't swing the axe here - try something that doesn't remove, subtract or eliminate. Trust me - It's been done.

Appreciate you taking the time to write this.
It's compelling reading and should be pinned.
I hope everyone takes the time to read it.

 

[H00t]

Everybody knew Shaun was very close to Clarkson so may be they didn't trust him to share their woes. Shaun said the same thing when asked about Cyril incident some time back too.

Shaun was a senior player when he was brought over so he wouldn’t have been exposed to this directly.

Plus being close to Clarko others might have assumed he was either ok with it. Despite not being aware.

He wouldn’t be the first person blindsided by someone they trust who has a darker side that they never show around you