News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Kanga Commando]

That's the problem with the report. It is one sided and therefore incomplete. Clarkson or Fagan's version of the exact same event may be similar to the hypothetical I outlined, or they may altogether deny it ever happened. Unless there is documented evidence, (and there may very will be), we will not entirely know the facts. It is deeply troubling that a number of the FN players had issues with Clarkson but I could imagine if you asked the entire list of players who played for Clarkson during his tenure at HFC, a similar percentage of the overall player group may have had grievances with him too.

As far as providing family advice, have you ever had a co-worker or sub-ordinate come to you with a challenging personal situation? (I have...it's called life.) You listen, provide them with your perspective and then refer the person to the assigned resources within the organization that are formally setup to deal with the issue. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I'm also not outraged that Clarkson may have discussed a very personal family issue with a player.

I have had all sorts of staff issues - performance, alcohol, drugs, depression, pets, births and deaths, and one abortion.

Most managers tend to make lousy counsellors. I'm no exception. I've had to draw a line in the sand on the drugs/alcohol because they can be work-performance related ( worked out really well for one guy ). On the others, the best we can do is support and let them know we are there for them if they need EAP, and give them the time and space to work things out.

I'm glad to say I've appreciated my limitations in this area, but I have dealt with A-type personality leaders who don't appreciate that limitation due to their own ego. It ain't pretty. I've come to mistrust these personalities with a passion due to the wreckage a lot of them leave in the lives of others.

All I can say now is that I hope all parties get their day in court.

 

[lethalselbow]

One side of a story told. So many experts.

 

[BobHawk]

Just wanted to make a quick note regarding people posting their experience as managers and dealing with staff issues. These are completely different to dealing with First Nation kids aspiring to play football or otherwise:

1. The power dynamics between senior AFL coach and his honchos and a bunch of kids are completely different to manager/staff in corporate settings.
2. These are very young kids with little life experience.
3. They are in an alien environment away from home and family.
4. The cultural differences between these Indigenous kids and middle-class white folks are immense. In many or most cases even unfathomable to people who have no experience with First Nation people.

I would love to know what experience and training Clarkson and co had in dealing with these kids because it is unlike anything one would come across in mainstream life. This is most likely to be a core issue in how these kids were handled. And another important factor is why Clarkson and HFC thought they were well equipped to take on some of these kids who were known to have issues and even brought in a player from APY Lands who could not speak English. This will be a key part of the investigation because HFC seemed to be wanting to break new grounds, but IMO were ill equipped to do so. In hindsight and with what we now know it all seems quite bizarre and intensely ignorant, if not self-righteous.

 

[Billyc]

Agree. I shudder to think what it would have been in here had it been the other bloke as pres

Indeed. The response to those emails was shameful from the head of an organisation. There's no batting that away, it's there in writing.

As for Kennett, while the main events under scrutiny occurred under the watch of another President, if anyone on here was asked 2 weeks ago about misogyny and racism at the club, Kennett's name would be front and centre. I see some people are clinging to the notion that all problems are historical and in the rear view mirror, but the most senior person at the club today collects golliwogs for fun and his disrespect and gaslighting toward a First Nations champion and his wife were the trigger for this entire investigation. Culture comes from the top and for nearly 2 decades those at the top have been Kennett and Newbold (and that other bloke for a short and irrelevant period).

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Indeed. The response to those emails was shameful from the head of an organisation. There's no batting that away, it's there in writing.

As for Kennett, while the main events under scrutiny occurred under the watch of another President, if anyone on here was asked 2 weeks ago about misogyny and racism at the club, Kennett's name would be front and centre. I see some people are clinging to the notion that all problems are historical and in the rear view mirror, but the most senior person at the club today collects golliwogs for fun and his disrespect and gaslighting toward a First Nations champion and his wife were the trigger for this entire investigation. Culture comes from the top and for nearly 2 decades those at the top have been Kennett and Newbold (and that other bloke for a short and irrelevant period).

Kennett is gone as of the AGM - I think that’s why it’s likely a moot point and not being thrashed out so much.

 

[Messenger]

That's the problem with the report. It is one sided and therefore incomplete. Clarkson or Fagan's version of the exact same event may be similar to the hypothetical I outlined, or they may altogether deny it ever happened. Unless there is documented evidence, (and there may very will be), we will not entirely know the facts. It is deeply troubling that a number of the FN players had issues with Clarkson but I could imagine if you asked the entire list of players who played for Clarkson during his tenure at HFC, a similar percentage of the overall player group may have had grievances with him too.

I urge you to read the post that is stuck to the top of every page of this thread for days.

As far as providing family advice, have you ever had a co-worker or sub-ordinate come to you with a challenging personal situation? (I have...it's called life.) You listen, provide them with your perspective and then refer the person to the assigned resources within the organization that are formally setup to deal with the issue. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I'm also not outraged that Clarkson may have discussed a very personal family issue with a player.

Yes. I‘ve manage health care workers through a global pandemic.

You listen, support and provide appropriate resources. Life advice in the sphere described in the report is way outside any manager’s brief.

 

[Billyc]

Kennett is gone as of the AGM - I think that’s why it’s likely a moot point and not being thrashed out so much.

He’s still there and has been these last few years so not sure how it’s a moot point when considering the culture of the club. His shadow has been and remains huge. Hopefully we see the back of him soon as one of very many essential changes the club needs. Though it seems like his hand-picked successor will take over

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

I urge you to read the post that is stuck to the top of every page of this thread for days.



Yes. I‘ve manage health care workers through a global pandemic.

You listen, support and provide appropriate resources. Life advice in the sphere described in the report is way outside any manager’s brief.

I just don't think AFL coach is comparable. It is a very different industry. I suspect there will be guidelines going forward to keep coaches in their area.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Though it seems like his hand-picked successor will take over

Flip side is - Sammy was Clarko’s hand picked successor and their approach to things appears to be very different thus far. Hoping Nank can stand apart from Kennett.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Are we positive that these experiences of racism aren't just Indigenous players misunderstanding well intentioned individuals trying to offer them counselling they never asked for???

 

[Billyc]

Flip side is - Sammy was Clarko’s hand picked successor and their approach to things appears to be very different thus far. Hoping Nank can stand apart from Kennett.

Given the wide discontent with the club’s administration 12 months ago and the new revelations about the club’s culture, I am still hopeful that someone with some gumption challenges this board. We would be much better placed already in dealing with and responding to this crises if the changes flagged last year were successful.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Given the wide discontent with the club’s administration 12 months ago and the new revelations about the club’s culture, I am still hopeful that someone with some gumption challenges this board. We would be much better placed already in dealing with and responding to this crises if the changes flagged last year were successful.

What would that achieve other than creating more upheaval at the club, more costs and swinging the axe at a group of people who mostly weren't at the club when the accusations took place, were at the club when the report was initiated and have been at the helm when the club was assessed to have been a culturally safe workplace.

 

[Mississippi]

Just wanted to make a quick note regarding people posting their experience as managers and dealing with staff issues. These are completely different to dealing with First Nation kids aspiring to play football or otherwise:

1. The power dynamics between senior AFL coach and his honchos and a bunch of kids are completely different to manager/staff in corporate settings.
2. These are very young kids with little life experience.
3. They are in an alien environment away from home and family.
4. The cultural differences between these Indigenous kids and middle-class white folks are immense. In many or most cases even unfathomable to people who have no experience with First Nation people.

I would love to know what experience and training Clarkson and co had in dealing with these kids because it is unlike anything one would come across in mainstream life. This is most likely to be a core issue in how these kids were handled. And another important factor is why Clarkson and HFC thought they were well equipped to take on some of these kids who were known to have issues and even brought in a player from APY Lands who could not speak English. This will be a key part of the investigation because HFC seemed to be wanting to break new grounds, but IMO were ill equipped to do so. In hindsight and with what we now know it all seems quite bizarre and intensely ignorant, if not self-righteous.

This is a really good post.

But what dumbfounds me is the ridiculous lawyer-speak aggressive denial from Clarkson overnight.
Why did he do that?
He's already issued his denial personally and via lawyers and commented that he hasn't had the advantage of seeing the report.
And because this latest denial is a global one, he's just setting himself up. Is he denying he even met players and wives and families in their home?

He will look silly when he ultimately concedes that, well. yes, he did actually go to various homes and speak to wives etc but that, in his view, they misconstrued what he was actually saying. When those facts eventually come out, as they surely will, then the public response is - "OK, then, so Clarkson has been a bit disingenuous with his denials".
That's not a good look.

The other downside with the aggressive heavy-handed denial is that, because it's an outright statement - and shows not an ounce of empathy - the reaction from the players is likely also to be equally aggressive and retaliatory.
I'd imagine the response from the players and their advisers will be - "F*ck you, Clarkson, if that's the way you want to play it ..!"

 

[Billyc]

What would that achieve other than creating more upheaval at the club, more costs and swinging the axe at a group of people who mostly weren't at the club when the accusations took place, were at the club when the report was initiated and have been at the helm when the club was assessed to have been a culturally safe workplace.

The Riolis would disagree with all of the above. The gaslighting of them from senior figures continued this year and the current administration have been aware of and dismissive of their concerns for years. Let's not pretend this was the not the source of a lot of concern a few months ago, so I don't see why the current administration now gets a leave pass just because worse allegations have emerged from years ago.

In circumstances where none of the young players even felt comfortable raising concerns with the likes of Shaun Burgoyne a few years ago, I am not putting the same stock in the feedback of current players to their current employer who control their futures, as you are.

I will be very disappointed if the club's response to all of this is to try and pass it off as some historical mischief by ex-employees rather than owning it as a cultural issue requiring very significant change.

 

[Jane Doe]

This is a really good post.

But what dumbfounds me is the ridiculous lawyer-speak aggressive denial from Clarkson overnight.
Why did he do that?
He's already issued his denial personally and via lawyers and commented that he hasn't had the advantageous of seeing the report.
And because this latest denial is a global one, he's just setting himself up. Is he denying he even met players and wives and families in their home?

He will look silly when he ultimately concedes that, well. yes, he did actually go to various homes and speak to wives etc but that, in his view, they misconstrued what he was actually saying. When those facts eventually come out, as they surely will, then the public response is - "OK, then, so Clarkson has been a bit disingenuous with his denials".
That's not a good look.

The other downside with the aggressive heavy-handed denial is that, because it's an outright statement - and shows not an ounce of empathy - the reaction from the players is likely also to be equally aggressive and retaliatory.
I'd imagine the response from the players and their advisers will be - "F*ck you, Clarkson, if that's the way you want to play it ..!"

How dare Clarkson defend himself in what has been a one sided case so far. Both sides need to be heard.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

The Riolis would disagree with all of the above. The gaslighting of them from senior figures continued this year and the current administration have been aware of and dismissive of their concerns for years. Let's not pretend this was the not the source of a lot of concern a few months ago, so I don't see why the current administration now gets a leave pass just because worse allegations have emerged from years ago.

In circumstances where none of the young players even felt comfortable raising concerns with the likes of Shaun Burgoyne a few years ago, I am not putting the same stock in the feedback of current players to their current employer who control their futures, as you are.

I will be very disappointed if the club's response to all of this is to try and pass it off as some historical mischief by ex-employees rather than owning it as a cultural issue requiring very significant change.

Again - none of the present board, sans Nankivell (appointed late 2014), were at the club when Cyril left. Being that the present board are the ones that sought to appoint Mitchell, sought to get the report commissioned and have been cleared by the report then I fail to see why the present board should be gutted. Unless you can point me in the direction of present board members who directly disrespected or dismissed reports of this from our Indigenous players - then sure their position may well need to be looked at. However all present board members, sans Nank, were appointed from 2016 onwards so I fail to see how their heads should be on the chopping block.

I have also re-read the Wilson/Rioli article from this year and I fail to see where the finger was pointed at any of the present board members. Kennett, Wright and Clarkson are the only individuals discussed in the article.

 

[Franko Armani]

Nonsense.

That’s not what has been claimed by the respondent in the report.

And as a senior figure at the club why the * would you place yourself in a position where you’re providing family advice?

Sorry mate but coaches do this all the time with players. Clarkson has done this with many of our leading players of his era. No doubt his overall style of coaching off field has contributed to the on field success we have all enjoyed.

Looks like there will be A LOT of posters here denouncing our premierships under Clarkson if this ends up the way it’s looking for him. Sorry but you can’t have one (premierships) without the other (overall coaching style on/off field).

Our people won’t be having their cake and eating too.

 

[Franko Armani]

I do love those creating defensive fake narratives where it’s perfectly cool and normal for a footy coach to support a player by suggesting that it’s an option for his partner to have an abortion. That’s not normal, that’s not the role of a footy coach, that’s not a conversation for anyone outside of that relationship.

Interestingly too I keep seeing the narratives trotted out in this thread that players didn’t know what to do, were unhappy in their relationships etc - when the information in the player investigations suggests nothing of the sort. Again not saying that the accusations are verified gospel truth - but I have to wonder about the motivations of those who just create complete false narratives regarding them.

Will be very ugly when some of this stuff does come out that’s for sure. Quite sad.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Sorry mate but coaches do this all the time with players. Clarkson has done this with many of our leading players of his era. No doubt his overall style of coaching off field has contributed to the on field success we have all enjoyed.

Looks like there will be A LOT of posters here denouncing our premierships under Clarkson if this ends up the way it’s looking for him. Sorry but you can’t have one (premierships) without the other (overall coaching style on/off field).

Our people won’t be having their cake and eating too.

I don't doubt that coaches/players have different dynamics from a manager and employee say in an office environment. But there would still be boundaries that should not ever be crossed and discussing the merits of having the player's partner having an abortion would absolutely be one of them. If that has transpired, even if 'well meaning' in intention, that is utterly overstepping. I don't care how good of a coach you are - that's shit behaviour.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Sharing because of hodgey;

 

[threesixpio]

You don’t last the best part of two decades at a club by being a campaigner. I’ll reserve my judgement as innocent until proven otherwise.

Smooths over the possibility that people can do good and bad things

 

[threesixpio]

Sharing because of hodgey;

You love Kane Cornes admit it

 

[threesixpio]

Just wanted to make a quick note regarding people posting their experience as managers and dealing with staff issues. These are completely different to dealing with First Nation kids aspiring to play football or otherwise:

1. The power dynamics between senior AFL coach and his honchos and a bunch of kids are completely different to manager/staff in corporate settings.
2. These are very young kids with little life experience.
3. They are in an alien environment away from home and family.
4. The cultural differences between these Indigenous kids and middle-class white folks are immense. In many or most cases even unfathomable to people who have no experience with First Nation people.

I would love to know what experience and training Clarkson and co had in dealing with these kids because it is unlike anything one would come across in mainstream life. This is most likely to be a core issue in how these kids were handled. And another important factor is why Clarkson and HFC thought they were well equipped to take on some of these kids who were known to have issues and even brought in a player from APY Lands who could not speak English. This will be a key part of the investigation because HFC seemed to be wanting to break new grounds, but IMO were ill equipped to do so. In hindsight and with what we now know it all seems quite bizarre and intensely ignorant, if not self-righteous.

That’s what’s hitting me the most - self righteous.

 

[Messenger]

I just don't think AFL coach is comparable. It is a very different industry. I suspect there will be guidelines going forward to keep coaches in their area.

I think the point I’ve made a few times is that we do need to get away from football having some sort of exceptionalism. It’s a workplace and there are great big red lines that shouldn’t be crossed in any workplace.