News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Gralin]

The AFL released this yesterday

AFL statement on independent investigation

The AFL acknowledges the response to the independent investigation from Marque Lawyers this morning

www.afl.com.au

 

[thehardway]

where have they committed to releasing the full findings?

Final report into Hawks racism allegations to be released publicly as AFL releases terms, end date for independent investigation

Report into Hawks racism claims to be released publicly as full probe terms, end date revealed

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Brishawk]

This isn't about the members of the panel this is about how the AFL has setup the investigation.

The investigation has not been setup to let the panel seek out the truth without interference.

The AFL will have complete control over the findings of the investigation and what if anything to publish, they have set the terms of the investigation, they've put their legal counsel in the middle of this and they appointed a lawyer to represent all the families as a group.

There is no mention of investigating claims of racism in their TOR for the investigation but there is reference in the TOR to the testimonies of First Nations people possibly being "inaccurate or unreliable" due to "cultural differences"

They didn't outsource this to an external body to investigate, something the original Hawthorn Report recommended

This is the AFL investigating itself and controlling the message again

Surely suggesting that testimonies of one racial group are possibly inaccurate or unreliable due to cultural differences is racist. They have literally baked in racism into the design of the investigation into racism accusations. I find this abhorrent and cannot understand how this made it past a lawyer.

 

[thehardway]

Surely suggesting that testimonies of one racial group are possibly inaccurate or unreliable due to cultural differences is racist. They have literally baked in racism into the design of the investigation into racism accusations. I find this abhorrent and cannot understand how this made it past a lawyer.

TOR Annexure A, item 5 needs to be read in context. Appears to relate to the proposed investigation process as opposed to the current allegations.

 

[Brishawk]

TOR Annexure A, item 5 needs to be read in context. Appears to relate to the proposed investigation process as opposed to the current allegations.

View attachment 1548212

So read that again and leave out the middle paragraph. The middle paragraph is poorly considered in the context of what they are trying to say.

 

[Rob R]

This isn't about the members of the panel this is about how the AFL has setup the investigation.

The investigation has not been setup to let the panel seek out the truth without interference.

The AFL will have complete control over the findings of the investigation and what if anything to publish, they have set the terms of the investigation, they've put their legal counsel in the middle of this and they appointed a lawyer to represent all the families as a group.

There is no mention of investigating claims of racism in their TOR for the investigation but there is reference in the TOR to the testimonies of First Nations people possibly being "inaccurate or unreliable" due to "cultural differences"

They didn't outsource this to an external body to investigate, something the original Hawthorn Report recommended

This is the AFL investigating itself and controlling the message again

Doesn't para 5 of annexure A(which I believe is the reference to unreliable)essentially tell and enpower the panel to be culturally sensitive rather than just apply western investigative methods?

Isn't the first example of types of inappropriate behaviour listed in the TOR to be investigated "racism"




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[thehardway]

So read that again and leave out the middle paragraph. The middle paragraph is poorly considered in the context of what they are trying to say.

Agree that these words would have been best left out. But at least there appears to be a genuine attempt to address the cultural difficulties when read in entirety.

 

[brad sue well]

My client spoke her truth about Hawthorn — beyond that, she has no duty to the AFL

'Why would I ask the protectors of the perpetrators who caused me all this trauma to then investigate the abuse?'

www.crikey.com.au

Marque Lawyer's Michael Bradley (3.11.22) - Whateley

The lawyer for "Amy", the centrepiece of the Hawthorn Racism Investigation Michael Bradley joins Gerard to go through the investigation...

pca.st

 

[Mercy Seat]

My client spoke her truth about Hawthorn — beyond that, she has no duty to the AFL

'Why would I ask the protectors of the perpetrators who caused me all this trauma to then investigate the abuse?'

www.crikey.com.au

Marque Lawyer's Michael Bradley (3.11.22) - Whateley

The lawyer for "Amy", the centrepiece of the Hawthorn Racism Investigation Michael Bradley joins Gerard to go through the investigation...

pca.st

Not to cast any doubt on Amy’s truth of what has happened at all, but the versions currently going around of her and her situation could not be more stark and troubling. Surely without participating in the process, it almost guarantees this alternative version will eventually be accepted by most as fact.

 

[brad sue well]

Welcome to nginx!

 

[brad sue well]

Not to cast any doubt on Amy’s truth of what has happened at all, but the versions currently going around of her and her situation could not be more stark and troubling. Surely without participating in the process, it almost guarantees this alternative version will eventually be accepted by most as fact.

It is an open wound.

Amy seems to be prepared to speak when it is safe to do so.

Amy is an incredibly courageous woman who you can’t help but think sees a vision of systemic change in the right circumstances for her to contribute.

These may well be her part of her healing, seperate to personal healing.

Just my own thoughts.

 

[Wingnut19]

This is just becoming an absolute circus.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

This is just becoming an absolute circus.

The moment the ABC aired those allegations in the manner that they did it was always destined to descend into the absolute quagmire we are witnessing now.

Still blows my mind that this has all gone down the way it has, total disregard for any kind of systematic judicial process IMOH. An absolute dogs breakfast in other words.

There is a reason we have courts and the like, imagine if every civil/criminal case was dealt with in this way it would be absolute chaos.

I do notice that the press as a whole has gone very quiet on this now though which is interesting.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Great statement from the former players.

Put up or shut up, Gil.

 

[TallyHawk]

This isn't about the members of the panel this is about how the AFL has setup the investigation.

The investigation has not been setup to let the panel seek out the truth without interference.

The AFL will have complete control over the findings of the investigation and what if anything to publish, they have set the terms of the investigation, they've put their legal counsel in the middle of this and they appointed a lawyer to represent all the families as a group.

There is no mention of investigating claims of racism in their TOR for the investigation but there is reference in the TOR to the testimonies of First Nations people possibly being "inaccurate or unreliable" due to "cultural differences"

They didn't outsource this to an external body to investigate, something the original Hawthorn Report recommended

This is the AFL investigating itself and controlling the message again

This is absolutely correct, I have first hand experience in participating in panels with terms of reference that are limiting and lead to a predetermined outcomes.


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[BobHawk]

If we can recall the Banking Royal Commission that was set up by the coalition government (which they did not want to do but were compelled by public opinion over a lengthy time), the terms of reference were drafted by.....the banks.

The AFL knows what it is doing. The former First Nation players and their families are receiving sound advice from their legal reps. They also know what they are doing.

 

[corporal]

The moment the ABC aired those allegations in the manner that they did it was always destined to descend into the absolute quagmire we are witnessing now.

Still blows my mind that this has all gone down the way it has, total disregard for any kind of systematic judicial process IMOH. An absolute dogs breakfast in other words.

There is a reason we have courts and the like, imagine if every civil/criminal case was dealt with in this way it would be absolute chaos.

I do notice that the press as a whole has gone very quiet on this now though which is interesting.

The fact the press has gone completely silent is telling. In the absence of any official statements defamation action will rightfully be on the cards, you can't run around calling people racist without the facts on the table. I know Franklin won't be able to comment while still playing for the swans but as the games greatest indigenous player and someone who had his early struggles I'm fascinated to hear whether he thinks the Hawks was a systematically racist football club.

 

[Rhayader]

The fact the press has gone completely silent is telling. In the absence of any official statements defamation action will rightfully be on the cards, you can't run around calling people racist without the facts on the table. I know Franklin won't be able to comment while still playing for the swans but as the games greatest indigenous player and someone who had his early struggles I'm fascinated to hear whether he thinks the Hawks was a systematically racist football club.

Silent? There are stories related to this in the press pretty much every day

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Silent? There are stories related to this in the press pretty much every day

They are still reporting on the process but they have stopped the editorial pieces that basically labelled Clarko, Fagan, etc as being worse than Hitler.

Some of the reporting when this broke was breathtakingly one sided and libelous considering the people named hadn't even had a chance to reply and werent even interviewed as part of the review. How is that even possible I ask myself?

And yes I know that technically the ABC did give those named 48 hours to respond but no one in their right mind would respond to these kind of allegations without seeking legal advice. It was an assassination attempt on their reputations pure and simple.

I'm not saying the allegations are correct or incorrect but I can't see how this whole process has been nothing but the worst example of a kangaroo court/ trial by media.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

The fact the press has gone completely silent is telling. In the absence of any official statements defamation action will rightfully be on the cards, you can't run around calling people racist without the facts on the table. I know Franklin won't be able to comment while still playing for the swans but as the games greatest indigenous player and someone who had his early struggles I'm fascinated to hear whether he thinks the Hawks was a systematically racist football club.

Definetly this will be going to the courts.

I'm no lawyer but if this isn't a lay down misere for a massive payout for Clarko and Fages I don't know what is.

Let's not forget that the ABC named and shamed them as being racists without even knowing the identities of those making the claims. That's completely nuts in my opinion.

 

[Accipiter]

The fact the press has gone completely silent is telling. In the absence of any official statements defamation action will rightfully be on the cards, you can't run around calling people racist without the facts on the table. I know Franklin won't be able to comment while still playing for the swans but as the games greatest indigenous player and someone who had his early struggles I'm fascinated to hear whether he thinks the Hawks was a systematically racist football club.

I rarely post and haven't read the full 85 pages, however, feel compelled to comment here:

Definition of systematically - according to a fixed plan or system.
- Unless we see racial text at any hierarchy within the Hawthorn business plan I would throw the word systematically out the door.

Definition of cultural - relating to the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a society.
- A variant of cultural issues is where I believe this sits.

In my profession we often look at what has been "Normalised'' within a conglomerate. This is where an unofficial or unauthorised deviation from system/ procedure becomes accepted practice. Generally this originates from the coalface and it is up to those in a position of power to correct and direct, or allow it to pass and embed itself in culture. Often this is where those in power who go unchallenged impose their will.

In the said time period the club was manned by powerful personalities who, it would be fair to say, remained largely unchallenged for a number of years. If I were running this investigation I would be very interested in what Tracey Gaudry had to say around the culture of the club.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Definetly this will be going to the courts.

I'm no lawyer but if this isn't a lay down misere for a massive payout for Clarko and Fages I don't know what is.

Let's not forget that the ABC named and shamed them as being racists without even knowing the identities of those making the claims. That's completely nuts in my opinion.

You seem to be prone to hyperbole suggesting that Fagan and Clarkson were made out to be “worse than hitler” but the bolded above didn’t happen.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Silent? There are stories related to this in the press pretty much every day

Usually when any sort of historic scandal breaks you get weeks of leaked stories about the accused piling up with further people coming forward and new information coming to light. It happens all the time, politics, sport, you name it.

The only new info we’ve had is an excerpt from Sam Mitchell’s book that Caro read that we all knew about and that’s literally been it. Even Caro who doesn’t mind doubling down on a big story has gone a bit quiet about it and concedes that there is a strong alternative version of events.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Usually when any sort of historic scandal breaks you get weeks of leaked stories about the accused piling up with further people coming forward and new information coming to light. It happens all the time, politics, sport, you name it.

The only new info we’ve had is an excerpt from Sam Mitchell’s book that Caro read that we all knew about and that’s literally been it. Even Caro who doesn’t mind doubling down on a big story has gone a bit quiet about it and concedes that there is a strong alternative version of events.

Probably only because the entire report got leaked.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Surely suggesting that testimonies of one racial group are possibly inaccurate or unreliable due to cultural differences is racist. They have literally baked in racism into the design of the investigation into racism accusations. I find this abhorrent and cannot understand how this made it past a lawyer.

Do they also suggest that the recollections of the club and coaches could also be inaccurate or unreliable? If they say that then it would not be unfair (recollection and memories are not reliable; emails and written evidence much stronger )