News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[PenAndPaper]

The players will not want to talk about the SIM card incidents either.

Yeah they really aren't a big deal at all.

 

[Brishawk]

Yeah they really aren't a big deal at all.

Sam thought it was a big deal for him. And he got his back. The context that differs for Sam is he isn’t alleging that Clarko systematically isolated players from their partners and family. So the context for some players will be very different.

 

[brad sue well]

Ironically, the very thing Clarko is being accused of doing/being is the same reason he will not tip the players in. Clarko could have counter claimed already though the media but that requires throwing mud and he will not do that to them.

And I doubt he has any legal claims - he likely did ask to change SIM cards, he probably did think it was a good idea to seperate friendships/family (it is possible there was a good reason for this), I won’t comment on the termination part - I have no idea what that is about.

But Clarko will not disclose these factors as they are personal, confidential and it would be a gross violation of the players privacy.

The fact Clarko (and Fagan and Burt) will not do the things they are accused of (whatever it takes to win) is the very thing that is currently protecting the players.

It is a s**t situation.

And again I accept that Clarko probably overstepped the line and probably did it regularly - but we know this was not based on race. He did it to everyone. His cultural awareness was probably also lacking - but he is not on his own there and we could all do a lot lot better and in future hopefully we do. On the flip side people still sook about welcome to country.

The coaches are in an impossible situation.

Clarkson - teaching degree (where 'diversity' is most likely covered as it was with me in the late 90s), played and coached First Nations players for 2+ decades (?), access to AFLPA and it's resources that are specifically geared to working with Indigenous players, an in house Indigenous Liaison Officer (!!!), knowledge of the Stolen Generation and the impact it has had (I don't accept even a passing knowledge is not enough). To recruit a player whose first language is not English and employ someone who is their personal worker to have them adjust to an elite environment demonstrates a very accepting and specific knowledge of need. This is a clear choice, to really commit but to do it in a way that has caused damage is glaring. [I don't get that actions that have such an impact are seen to bring the best version of a person to work, perform etc. I get there is a need for conformity in elite sport but a disgruntled person can't be as good in a high performance environment if their life is dealing with these allegations]

Fagan and Burt are teachers as well ie Hawthorn University??? They would have had similar access to the above.

For actions to then occur as alleged added to this background falls into racism. Good intent, yes, but non-consultative and at best ignorant and this isn't an excuse at all. Eddie and Jeff also had good intent... Eddie still had no idea at the Do Better press conference and Jeff ended Rioli's career amongst other things they inflict. What is alleged are racist actions and aren't racist for a non-Indigenous player (although still acts that shouldn't happen) as the knowledge Clarkson would have had contact with shows, at the least, a level of cultural knowledge.

It was interesting to hear Nat Edwards say on the AFL podcast we are being 'conditioned' by the AFL for the return to work of Clarkson and Fagan. Barrett agreed. I get this throws the pre-season prep but how would it look if these allegations stick and they have allowed them to work, potentially exposing this workplace approach to others.

 

[brad sue well]

First Nations families no guarantee to participate in Hawthorn review, lawyer says

The lawyer representing a First Nations family who allege mistreatment by Hawthorn, says their "traumatised" clients may not participate in the AFL's independent investigation.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Mississippi]

That article published on ABC and the points made by the players lawyer succinctly sets out some of the various problems.

The AFL has selected a panel and announced that it will act independently.
But then McLaughlin attempts to set the ground rules - “We’d like it all over by Christmas thank you”.
What?
Why? Presumably as a convenience to Clarkson and Fagan so they can resume coaching and to the clubs so they can get on with the job?
The players are entitled to consider the panel is not truly independent when the AFL issues a self-serving ultimatum like that.
The lawyer is absolutely right when she says that timeline is “crushingly outrageous”.

It should be the task of the panel to determine the timeline. Time for McLaughlin to butt out. And the experienced lawyers on the panel are most definitely not going to be pushed into a ridiculous deadline by some tinpot CEO - because, aside from issues of natural justice, there may be legal consequences arising out of any recommendation of the panel.

Those barristers on the panel will be mindful that a court may, in due course, when considering the panel’s recommendations, need to determine whether the parties had a fair hearing and were given adequate time to fully present their grievances, probably including, where relevant, medical or psychiatric reports. Remember, the mental health of the aggrieved players is at the core of their claims. This is not a process that will be completed by Christmas (assuming the players agree in the first place to present their cases to the AFL appointed panel).

This matter is complicated and multi-faceted and has a long way to go.

And I haven’t even mentioned WorkSafe.

 

[Mercy Seat]

They would definitely want everyone to have that impression but I’m betting reality is very different. He can’t redeem his reputation through the courts.

Imagine how this plays out. The players claim Clarko took phones/SIM card off the players. That has been corroborated by others already. The dispute will then focus in on the personal and cultural factors at play. If his lawyers goes hard at the players to win the court case, Clarko will lose in the court of public opinion. The lawyers for the players will just continue to roll out examples of how they were systematically worse off because of personal and cultural factors and there will be little way of refuting it on the basis of fact and they will spend the whole time making legal arguments or questioning the character of those involved. It will be a horror show.

Perhaps. I think they are itching to get their side of the story out. Wherever the truth lies, there are quite significantly different versions of events doing the rounds. Knowing how stubborn Clarko and Fages are, I just can't see a world where they don't think they're 100% in the right.

 

[Brishawk]

Perhaps. I think they are itching to get their side of the story out. Wherever the truth lies, there are quite significantly different versions of events doing the rounds. Knowing how stubborn Clarko and Fages are, I just can't see a world where they don't think they're 100% in the right.

Al Capone thought he was a public benefactor. Nobody thinks they are the bad guy

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

"It wouldn't be credible, you couldn't give it much merit if half of or all of the families did not participate," she said.

I can think of a solution to this

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[Lickmesocks]

The problem here is that the respective parties want very different outcomes.

The players want to be compensated without having to air their dirty laundry.

The accused want to clear their names.

Achieving both is not possible. The AFL will just want it to go away so the players will get their outcome.

I have no doubt the accused probably did lack some cultural sensitivity and likely overstepped on more than a few occasions. And this needs to be addressed. But I also have no doubt the players have a lot of skeletons they would prefer to keep in the closet.

Do the AFL really want the families to participate and be interviewed again?

Without further participation and questioning on facts timelines or unless Clarko Fagan and Burt either admit they are guilty or potentially roll over on each other there is really only one outcome here…..

Hawthorn and then the AFL will settle out of court under a strict NDA and Clarko Fagan and Burt will say we have participated in the investigation and continue to strongly deny the allegations but are unable to make further comment due to the process and now need to get on with our lives.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Do the AFL really want the families to participate and be interviewed again?

Without further participation and questioning on facts timelines or unless Clarko Fagan and Burt either admit they are guilty or potentially roll over on each other there is really only one outcome here…..

Hawthorn and then the AFL will settle out of court under a strict NDA and Clarko Fagan and Burt will say we have participated in the investigation and continue to strongly deny the allegations but are unable to make further comment due to the process and now need to get on with our lives.

I just can't see Fagan, Clarko and Burt accepting this outcome.

A settlement to the players is a defacto admission of guilt no matter which way you look at it and I don't think they will cop that if they believe they are innocent (I wouldn't in their shoes).

And if the players and players families take the out of court settlement it does come across as a bit of a cynical money grubbing outcome.

Still can't see how this gets resolved without going to the courts TBH.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Clarkson - teaching degree (where 'diversity' is most likely covered as it was with me in the late 90s), played and coached First Nations players for 2+ decades (?), access to AFLPA and it's resources that are specifically geared to working with Indigenous players, an in house Indigenous Liaison Officer (!!!), knowledge of the Stolen Generation and the impact it has had (I don't accept even a passing knowledge is not enough). To recruit a player whose first language is not English and employ someone who is their personal worker to have them adjust to an elite environment demonstrates a very accepting and specific knowledge of need. This is a clear choice, to really commit but to do it in a way that has caused damage is glaring. [I don't get that actions that have such an impact are seen to bring the best version of a person to work, perform etc. I get there is a need for conformity in elite sport but a disgruntled person can't be as good in a high performance environment if their life is dealing with these allegations]

Fagan and Burt are teachers as well ie Hawthorn University??? They would have had similar access to the above.

For actions to then occur as alleged added to this background falls into racism. Good intent, yes, but non-consultative and at best ignorant and this isn't an excuse at all. Eddie and Jeff also had good intent... Eddie still had no idea at the Do Better press conference and Jeff ended Rioli's career amongst other things they inflict. What is alleged are racist actions and aren't racist for a non-Indigenous player (although still acts that shouldn't happen) as the knowledge Clarkson would have had contact with shows, at the least, a level of cultural knowledge.

It was interesting to hear Nat Edwards say on the AFL podcast we are being 'conditioned' by the AFL for the return to work of Clarkson and Fagan. Barrett agreed. I get this throws the pre-season prep but how would it look if these allegations stick and they have allowed them to work, potentially exposing this workplace approach to others.

Excuse the intrusion but I consider myself an 'expert' in stolen generation' and there are not many that have any idea about how brutal it was. All the best to the Hawks in 2023

 

[Billyc]

I just can't see Fagan, Clarko and Burt accepting this outcome.

A settlement to the players is a defacto admission of guilt no matter which way you look at it and I don't think they will cop that if they believe they are innocent (I wouldn't in their shoes).

Not up to them. They are ex employees. They will have no say in how Hawthorn responds to civil litigation. Insurers of Hawthorn and AFL will settle any civil claim. Won’t go to court

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Not up to them. They are ex employees. They will have no say in how Hawthorn responds to civil litigation. Insurers of Hawthorn and AFL will settle any civil claim. Won’t go to court

That may be true but I still think Clarkson, Fagan and Burt pursuing this further through the courts.

They have multiple options of who to pursue.

Just off the top of my head (and I am no lawyer but this seems reasonable)

• The Author of the report (HFC?) for denying them natural justice for publishing the report without hearing their side of the story
• The ABC for publishing the report and naming them personally (libel)
• Any media outlet that insinuated they were racist in their dealings with the players

Of course I am not saying the findings of the report are right or wrong but it still amazes me that this whole thing has been a trial by media (kangaroo court) where one side has been totally dragged through the mid and the other not even named. Allegations this serious have to be determined in a court of law, this is Australia in the 21st century!

In fact I can see a scenario where both the ex players and Clarko/Fagan/Burt are pursuing the HFC for a settlement for the same issue which I don't know has ever happened before?

 

[Billyc]

That may be true but I still think Clarkson, Fagan and Burt pursuing this further through the courts.

They have multiple options of who to pursue.

Just off the top of my head (and I am no lawyer but this seems reasonable)

• The Author of the report (HFC?) for denying them natural justice for publishing the report without hearing their side of the story
• The ABC for publishing the report and naming them personally (libel)
• Any media outlet that insinuated they were racist in their dealings with the players

Of course I am not saying the findings of the report are right or wrong but it still amazes me that this whole thing has been a trial by media (kangaroo court) where one side has been totally dragged through the mid and the other not even named. Allegations this serious have to be determined in a court of law, this is Australia in the 21st century!

In fact I can see a scenario where both the ex players and Clarko/Fagan/Burt are pursuing the HFC for a settlement for the same issue which I don't know has ever happened before?

Sticking to my prediction from when this first dropped, and it seems to be tracking that way:
1. Insurers settle civil claims by making early substantial offers that players/families can't risk refusing
2. AFL investigation finds governance wrongdoing without going into specifics (typical expedience for AFL)
3. Club admits historic failures, formally apologises and AFL/club put measures in place for greater welfare, education and awareness.
4. Clarkson, Fagan individually deny wrongdoing but concede misunderstanding and claim best intentions etc and apologise for any hurt caused.
5. Everyone keeps their jobs
6. If Worksafe prosecute, club pleads guilty and pays fine

If it plays out that way, it would be beyond foolish for Clarkson/Fagan to then push it into the courts. All that would do is keep it in the public domain for another couple of years, cost a shitload and provide a huge distraction and circus.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[brad sue well]

Excuse the intrusion but I consider myself an 'expert' in stolen generation' and there are not many that have any idea about how brutal it was. All the best to the Hawks in 2023

Thanks Yolngu, I don't see it as an intrusion.

Of course I don't know the extent of knowledge but there are quite a few circumstances that demonstrate opportunities to engage with First Nations people and this was done, I feel very clearly. To employ an Indigenous Liaison Officer, up to a decade before it is now mandatory was most likely the 'best practice' in the league. I recall our recruit from the APY Lands having a personal support worker when he crossed from the SANFL and recall, as an Initiated Elder, HFC asked whether it was okay for him to commit to football so far from Community. I think it was deemed more beneficial to see this player succeed in football than have him stay and I imagine returned once his career finished. I believe the senior team used the language/s of this player at centre bounce discussion as the other team would not know what was being said, to me, a lovely embedding into practice. Happy to be corrected on these details.

Along with this is this AFLPA document I previously referred to with the following extract, page 18. I can't excuse not using this. Not at HFC but I was in a PDM office in 2016 and several copies of this were on the shelf.

"INITIATED MAN

Only boys who have proven themselves worthy of the responsibility of adulthood, mentally and physically, are
initiated as men. The initiation process is a transition rite and there are various stages and ways of
initiation. In most cases limited information is released and taught. Each stage can vary in length, from a few days, a
few months or even longer. Physical elements can occur during initiation such as physical harm.
These test the initiate - if the person is unable to endure the pain or initiation requirements, then they
may not be trusted with the secrets of the tribe. It is highly recommended to treat these discussions with
the utmost respect and to consider how your club can support a player who may be selected by his tribe to
become initiated, or who arrives at your club already having the responsibilities of being an initiated man.

STOLEN GENERATION

Be mindful that Indigenous players at your club are likely to be affected, or have members of their family affected, directly by the stolen generation. Be sure to respect this topic and not talk about it like it is a thing of the distant past. It was still happening in the 1960's."

Many Stories, One Goal

MANY STORIES, ONE GOAL SUPPORTING INDIGENOUS FOOTBALLERS The artwork featured on the cover and throughout Many Stories, One Goal is by Hawthorn Football Club’s,

docslib.org

 

[Mercy Seat]

Sticking to my prediction from when this first dropped, and it seems to be tracking that way:
1. Insurers settle civil claims by making early substantial offers that players/families can't risk refusing
2. AFL investigation finds governance wrongdoing without going into specifics (typical expedience for AFL)
3. Club admits historic failures, formally apologises and AFL/club put measures in place for greater welfare, education and awareness.
4. Clarkson, Fagan individually deny wrongdoing but concede misunderstanding and claim best intentions etc and apologise for any hurt caused.
5. Everyone keeps their jobs
6. If Worksafe prosecute, club pleads guilty and pays fine

If it plays out that way, it would be beyond foolish for Clarkson/Fagan to then push it into the courts. All that would do is keep it in the public domain for another couple of years, cost a shitload and provide a huge distraction and circus.

I agree with everything except 3. The interpretation of events being widely circulated including people at the club to me suggests that this is unlikely. I think a broad level of commitment to greater indigenous welfare and AFL introducing new rules with culpability is the most likely.

Also 6 - for Worksafe to find the club guilty of anything here will be extremely difficult and unlikely. And this is coming from a source within.

 

[brad sue well]

I agree with everything except 3. The interpretation of events being widely circulated including people at the club to me suggests that this is unlikely. I think a broad level of commitment to greater indigenous welfare and AFL introducing new rules with culpability is the most likely.

Also 6 - for Worksafe to find the club guilty of anything here will be extremely difficult and unlikely. And this is coming from a source within.

"I think a broad level of commitment to greater indigenous welfare and AFL introducing new rules with culpability is the most likely."

Has been flagged by the AFL in a statement already, last week or when the lawyers were announced?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Doesn't matter.
The stolen generations were inflicted by people trying to help.
It didn't.

They were never trying to help in the stolen generation. They were trying to destroy the race and culture of Aboriginal people

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[flinchfree]

I Love it.

There is zero benefit in binding an infected wound, it will only eat deeper.
Give it air, let everyone clear their own hurts in one foul swoop, and then come together to heal.
Be a voice for a positive future, engage, include.
There is no greater Club than ours, no greater history, lets build more from a fresh start and new day.

 

[Randy Campbell]

I Love it.

There is zero benefit in binding an infected wound, it will only eat deeper.
Give it air, let everyone clear their own hurts in one foul swoop, and then come together to heal.
Be a voice for a positive future, engage, include.
There is no greater Club than ours, no greater history, lets build more from a fresh start and new day.

Come what may you'll find us striving.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[TylerDurden]