News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[TylerDurden]

I have not read the report, so can someone tell me if Humphrey B Bear is referenced in the court document?

100% it is.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

This is a great point. I know for a fact it was used as a joke due to Cyril being quiet. I witnessed it with my own eyes. He used to laugh along as an acceptance that he was shy.

It's now being used in a court case as a tool, with its context completely twisted.

All I witnessed, with my own eyes, was a happy footballer who got along with everyone at the club, and loved his coach.

As for those questioning my character in this thread, you know who you are. I speak from first hand observations, and would know more than anyone here about the goings on in those 4 walls at the time. Pull your heads in!

Firstly, no one should be questioning your character mate. You've been a long-standing quality poster.

This is a serious topic that is fairly divisive and it's one that we all have differences of opinion on.

I personally believe that if Rioli wanted to chase dollars and bury the club in the process he would have gone about this in a very different way.

This thread and the linked articles are painful to read through as a supporter of the club. It should be confronting for most of us who have a limited understanding of Aboriginal Culture in general. Which I suppose is a good thing at the end of the day as it may help us reflect on our own behaviours over the years.

For example I don't believe that calling someone Humphrey B Bear is inherently racist. It's a terribly unfunny and lame nickname for sure, but not a racist one - and I don't believe for a second that Clarko had any racist intentions behind it.

Though the real issue is how it was received/perceived by Rioli, and perceived by the other Aboriginal players in the squad.

I wish that Rioli and Clarko had a discussion about this early on, or I wish we had someone at the club the Rioli could have felt comfortable in raising the matter to, which could have then been brought up with Clarko and co.

This is just one rather minor thing in amongst everything that's being levelled at the club, but even so there is a lot for everyone to learn from.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

I am starting to wonder whether the days of coming up with nicknames at footy clubs are over. The days of nicknames in the workforce are over so perhaps footy clubs will follow.

Calling someone Humphrey Bear because they are quiet and shy probably seemed harmless enough at the time but is now coming back up as a racist comment that hurt the individual.

If you are a young person entering an AFL system and have some anxiety around your body, or your features or whatever it might be, having the coach belt out a nickname even like “shaggy” for DGB for a few laughs might also be in the past.

What race was Humphrey B Bear?

 

[thehardway]

There will not be further formal mediation - that was finished when the HRC gave permission to go to court. There will be settlement offers prior to court though. As was posted previously, there can be financial consequences to rejecting these if you end up doing worse than what was offered.

Just because the HRC conciliation process broke down doesn't mean there can't be another formal mediation attempt. As per the Reynolds v Higgins defamation case the judge strongly recommended they have another mediation attempt before proceeding to court. It did fail though.

As the HFC are the only respondents in the statement of claims mediation could take place without Clarko, Fagan, Burt and others which may make a resolution more likely.

 

[Charchi]

Absolutely wrong.

First, ABL are the exact opposite of an ambulance chasing firm. They do not do the work associated with ambulance chasing. They do a huge amount of pro bono work and a lot of work for the indigenous community throughout Australia, including the NT.

Secondly, I have some local knowledge of what Cyril’s been doing in the last few years and how he’s been living. He’s been living very modestly and has turned down many opportunities to make money. He’s simply not that sort of person.
Of course this claim has a damages component but if you read the statement of claim you’ll see that the grievances of the players, Cyril included, and the relief they are seeking from the court, extend far beyond money.

Cyril is a very proud indigenous man and the reputation he is protecting has nothing to do with “coin” as TylerDurden so inappropriately asserted.

My personal experience with that firm is very different to the Luvvy duvvy one you portray here.
I will go by the saying “if you have nothing nice to say then don’t say anything, in this instance I have ABSOLUTEY nothing to say about that law firm”

 

[Ned Ryerson]

What race was Humphrey B Bear?

Probably one you don't like.

 

[DogDaySonny]

Probably one you don't like.

Ah, the casual smears of racism tossed around in here like lollies from a fire truck in a parade.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Matthew Kruzer at Carlton had the nickname Humphrey B Bear

 

[brad sue well]

What’s the limiting principle for this? Who doesn’t get this protection, and why not? Am I allowed to after the fact declare behaviours were, contrary to my statements and actions at the time, offensive?

This seems to be a bottomless can of worms you want to open. I’m curious if this can is open for everyone to make court claims on or only some people. And if only some people, on what basis do you judge their offense worthy of consideration?

Genuinely not trying to avoid your post. I think others have answered this in recent pages better than me.

 

[I wanna pash Nash]

This is a great point. I know for a fact it was used as a joke due to Cyril being quiet. I witnessed it with my own eyes. He used to laugh along as an acceptance that he was shy.

It's now being used in a court case as a tool, with its context completely twisted.

All I witnessed, with my own eyes, was a happy footballer who got along with everyone at the club, and loved his coach.

As for those questioning my character in this thread, you know who you are. I speak from first hand observations, and would know more than anyone here about the goings on in those 4 walls at the time. Pull your heads in!

No questioning of your character mate. I read these forums for years before joining and have always valued your input nor ever seen anything that would make me question your character.

Just thought your comment was over simplifying a very complex issue. We all love the club and all love the players who have worn the colours. You more than most of us have seen it up close and I'm not going to tell you that your perspective is wrong.

Echoing what Judd2Sewell said above, it sounds like so much of this could have been avoided if there was just better channels for communication.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Matthew Kruzer at Carlton had the nickname Humphrey B Bear

Chris Mew, Grant Birchall, Matthew Kreuzer, Cyril Rioli.

All were affectionately known to their peers as "Humphrey" early on (or throughout) their careers.

 

[SammyC]

No questioning of your character mate. I've read these forums for years before joining and have always valued your input nor ever seen anything that would make me question your character.

Just thought your comment was over simplifying a very complex issue. We all love the club and all love the players who have worn the colours. You more than most of us have seen it up close and I'm not going to tell you that your perspective is wrong.

Echoing what Judd2Sewell said above, it sounds like so much of this could have been avoided if there was just better channels for communication.

Exactly and the availability of trusted channels and general cultural awareness is 100% the responsibility fo the employer.

I think what this boils down to is frustration from Rioli and co about an unwillingness from the club and key personnel to reflect on the environment they were providing for our indigenous players - were we allowing them to be themselves, acknowledging their unique experiences and perspectives and valuing them as individuals or assuming all was ok because on the surface people seemed happy.

There is no way rioli goes down this path for $$$ only - much easier wyas for him to make a buck. He is doing it for the other players and I think in some ways to make the club understand and do better.

I'm all for finding out the truth. My assumption is the motivations from clarkson and co were not racist but the cultural insensitivity and not understanding the power imbalance from the players perspective needs to be understood. The player who allegedly felt he needed the clubs permission for his partner and child to visit from interstate? Asked for permission and it was allegedly refused? Far out. Not racist but appalling situation.

 

[Randy Campbell]

We only have one answer to the problems of the world and its probably the main reason for the problems to happen in the first place.

MONEY.

 

[Mississippi]

:

My personal experience with that firm is very different to the Luvvy duvvy one you portray here.
I will go by the saying “if you have nothing nice to say then don’t say anything, in this instance I have ABSOLUTEY nothing to say about that law firm”

It’s not a matter of luvvy duvvy opinion.

I simply stated 2 facts in response to your ridiculous, false statement.
ABL does not do ambulance chasing work - they’re probably the last firm in Mlelb that does that work. Simple fact.
The other simple fact is that they do a huge amount of pro bono work for indigenous people and organisations.
Second simple fact.
There’s nothing luvvy duvvy about stating those facts in response to your nonsensical comment

But the really good news is that you’ve just declared that if you have nothing nice to say, then you’ll say absolutely nothing!
Your pledge to stop uttering unfounded derogatory comments comes as a massive relief.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Ah, the casual smears of racism tossed around in here like lollies from a fire truck in a parade.

If the shoe fits.

 

[CHUBBSS]

This is a great point. I know for a fact it was used as a joke due to Cyril being quiet. I witnessed it with my own eyes. He used to laugh along as an acceptance that he was shy.

It's now being used in a court case as a tool, with its context completely twisted.

All I witnessed, with my own eyes, was a happy footballer who got along with everyone at the club, and loved his coach.

As for those questioning my character in this thread, you know who you are. I speak from first hand observations, and would know more than anyone here about the goings on in those 4 walls at the time. Pull your heads in!

It’s amazing what can happen once you change environments, that same person can assess, review and change to be completely different then once was.

I reckon their is a fair bit at play causing the above.

 

[Yardie]

You could be right but I don’t see how you can say the club didn’t have necessary protections in place and simultaneously not find that someone was actually racist. “Racist things happened, but the people who did it weren’t racist. Additionally, the club didn’t stop these people who aren’t racist from doing racist things.” Further, I would be interested in seeing where “necessary protections” for racial minorities is defined in the legal code or precedent (I don’t really want to read the code, I’m just saying I find it hard to believe that’s actually codified).

I mean, who knows where this will end up but it has a “it just feels right” quality to it, which is hardly a good legal standard.

I think that the issue at hand is about systemic racism, rather than overt racism.

Systemic racism refers to the direct or indirect racism and discrimination that is embedded in the structures and institutions that make up our society (think governments, educational institutions, law courts, policing, health care, prisons, and so on)

IMO, Clarkson & co are dealing with players without fully understanding, in this case, the systemic racism that those players are dealing with on a day to day basis.

Just read the following article where Chad Wingard talks about his day to day interactions.

‘All the time’: Wingard says racism still plagues his everyday life

Hawthorn forward Chad Wingard has played more than 200 AFL games, but he says he still experiences racism “all the time” in his everyday life.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

:


It’s not a matter of luvvy duvvy opinion.

I simply stated 2 facts in response to your ridiculous, false statement.
ABL does not do ambulance chasing work - they’re probably the last firm in Mlelb that does that work. Simple fact.
The other simple fact is that they do a huge amount of pro bono work for indigenous people and organisations.
Second simple fac
There’s nothing luvvy duvvy about stating those facts in response to your nonsensical comment

But the really good news is that you’ve just declared that if you have nothing nice to say, then you’ll say absolutely nothing!
Your pledge to stop uttering unfounded derogatory comments comes as a massive relief.

ABL are no robinson gill

 

[DogDaySonny]

I think that the issue at hand is about systemic racism, rather than overt racism.

Systemic racism refers to the direct or indirect racism and discrimination that is embedded in the structures and institutions that make up our society (think governments, educational institutions, law courts, policing, health care, prisons, and so on)

IMO, Clarkson & co are dealing with players without fully understanding, in this case, the systemic racism that those players are dealing with on a day to day basis.

Just read the following article where Chad Wingard talks about his day to day interactions.

‘All the time’: Wingard says racism still plagues his everyday life

Hawthorn forward Chad Wingard has played more than 200 AFL games, but he says he still experiences racism “all the time” in his everyday life.

www.theage.com.au

The White Australia policy was systemic racism, ie the System, or Govt, legalising racism with disparate treatment based simply on race.

I fully understand people now passionately try to define systemic racism as guilt-by-existence, unconsciously evil by the very nature of one’s race. I don’t agree with that extreme viewpoint and think it’s fundamentally and tragically wrong to judge someone a racist simply by their skin color, or sex, or age. As equally wrong as judging someone inferior by the same reasoning.

So, if someone is experiencing systemic racism, say legally prevented from shopping in a store because of their skin colour, let me know and I’ll join you on the steps of parliament. If someone is experiencing illegal racism, let me know and I’ll join you in reporting it to the police.

But if we’re going to argue that hurt feelings, as unfortunate as they are, constitutes systemic racism, then I don’t agree. Everyone’s feelings get hurt, even mine, and if we’re going to call everything that results in hurt feelings an overt (if unconscious), racist act, then we have gutted all meaning from the word racism and all agency from the racist. That Maoist, struggle session-enabling philosophy destroys the human spirit. It’s a bad social paradigm and despite the emotional appeal of spiritual atonement for unconscious and original sins, it should be rejected.

 

[Lickmesocks]

Chris Mew, Grant Birchall, Matthew Kreuzer, Cyril Rioli.

All were affectionately known to their peers as "Humphrey" early on (or throughout) their careers.

You can add Jon Hay to that list.

 

[HedgeFund]

Can someone explain to me how Grant Birchall is not a defendant with the allegations against him?

There’s only one defendant -the Hawthorn Football Club Limited.

None of the staff / players are defendants. The argument being it was the club’s responsibility to provide a culturally sensitive and non-discriminatory environment for the plaintiffs, and the club failed.

The actions of Matthews, Birchall, Kennett, Clarkson, Burt, Fagan, etc. towards players and their family are alleged as evidence of that failure.

 

[SammyC]

While arguing the toss on the definition of racism and whether the allegations made are examples of racism or discrimination may be important in a legal sense, in my view it misses the point on what I expect from the club as a member and supporter.

Taking as a given that all the below comes with a caveat of subject to being proven:

• players partner and child not being 'allowed' to visit from interstate or stay in Melb for longer than agreed
• player not being allowed to stay with partner and child when in Perth for Indigenous game
• player not being allowed / being delayed visiting sick / dying family members interstatae
• player being relocated to staff members house and feeling like he is only allowed out to go to training
• player feeling like he needs to choose between pregnant partner and continuation of footy career

You could easily argue that none of this is 'racist' and had the players welfare and career at heart (given rumoured context) & that the same approach would have been or was taken for any wayward young player of a different race (think Hodgey said he was discouraged from going home to Colac at times).

But given everything we know about the historical context, power imbalances, cultural differences, etc, it is absolutely unacceptable in contemporary Australia and a workplace. This should not happen to any player, Indigenous or not.

If it did happen, the club provided an environment that enabled this to occur and Clarkson, Fagan, Burt and co were culpable in being uneducated and insensitive. The behaviour and the individuals might not have been racist but if even part of what is alleged occurred, its still an appalling situation and a poor reflection on the club and the individuals involved, particularly if they still don't acknowledge and understand that to be the case.

 

[HedgeFund]

.....only those that haven't shown they can cope in an AFL environment.

I reckon Dayle Garlett was the one who put us off drafting indigenous talent which would require extra care to deal with non-football issues.

 

[brad sue well]

You can add Jon Hay to that list.

Bruce Doull, it doesn’t matter. It is probably 1/40 on a list. We can list all the Aussie nicknames.

Context, culture are relevant in the families argument.

 

[HedgeFund]

Does everyone want Clarko Burt and Fagan to have their say in court or would most prefer Hawthorn settle financially and move on.

I mean Burt came out and said the Binmada report was a disgrace.

Clarko and Fagan have said multiple times they are looking for their chance to tell there stories.

I definitely want it to be assessed in open court and findings made.

It’s the only way to bring closure.