News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Which grand final did Cyril start in the centre square? Massive statement of intent from Clarkson following injury cloud... Cyril as the lead name on the Statement is that, but this is real life.

2014

 

[jumpingjai]

Absolutely wrong.

First, ABL are the exact opposite of an ambulance chasing firm. They do not do the work associated with ambulance chasing. They do a huge amount of pro bono work and a lot of work for the indigenous community throughout Australia, including the NT.

Hahaha you are right about one thing
ABL are the exact opposite of ambulance chasers. They are smarter than that. They are government chasers. One big reason firms like ABL do pro bono work is to 'qualify' for the highly profitable government (taxpayer funded work).
Don't kid yourself and others this work is altruistic. It is big business at its most cynical.

BTW will ABL forego their fees if the matter revolves or if they win or will ABL clip the ticket and take their fees.

 

[brad sue well]

Hahaha you are right about one thing
ABL are the exact opposite of ambulance chasers. They are smarter than that. They are government chasers. One big reason firms like ABL do pro bono work is to 'qualify' for the highly profitable government (taxpayer funded work).
Don't kid yourself and others this work is altruistic. It is big business at its most cynical.

BTW will ABL forego their fees if the matter revolves or if they win or will ABL clip the ticket and take their fees.

Isn't there a saying that nobody wins in court... whatever this outcome it will be a mess with some sort of end point. People on here will pile on me, I honestly don't care. This has already left deep wounds and I include coaches. Clarkson is on mental health leave/watch, families are damaged. I wish this was mediated before the ABC article and an industry standard.

ABL do present as a better option than others but not ignoring what you wrote either. I am told they have made pretty big advances for Indigenous people. This whole thing is about feeling safe in an organisation, ABL seem that place here.

 

[Mississippi]

Hahaha you are right about one thing
ABL are the exact opposite of ambulance chasers. They are smarter than that. They are government chasers. One big reason firms like ABL do pro bono work is to 'qualify' for the highly profitable government (taxpayer funded work).
Don't kid yourself and others this work is altruistic. It is big business at its most cynical.

BTW will ABL forego their fees if the matter revolves or if they win or will ABL clip the ticket and take their fees.

And how good is that model !?
Let the substantial fees earned from government-related and institutional work pay for the significant altruistic and charitable work they do, pro bono, including for the indigenous community.

 

[Mississippi]

I've read through the full Statement of Claim. I can see why there is debate over whether or not particular events or quotes were actually motivated by or even influenced by race. But what's clear is that there was a systemic problem at the club.

The club's treatment of Egan shows how little the ILO role was valued at the time and honestly it broke my heart reading how he was excluded. So many of the issues experienced by the players could have been quickly resolved, improved or even avoided completely had that role been properly resourced.

The advising or persuading of the players against taking up a player manager - and even volunteering to represent them! It doesn't even matter if that offer comes from a good place. That's such an egregious conflict of interest.

To then be providing personal advice discouraging certain personal relationships and active pregnancies within meetings where job performance was on the agenda is totally ****ed up. Anyone, regardless of race or culture could easily interpret it as being a directive tied to their employment.

The players needed true independent and culturally informed representation in those type of meetings. Failure to provide that and even actively discouraging it at times is where I see the key failing by the club. Everything else stems from that.

Shannyn obviously recognised this via Cyril and even attempted on multiple occasions to help the club uplift but was effectively rejected. She tried to warn them and nobody in charge would listen and now the club is rightfully being sued and will lose in my opinion.

A good post.
As well as being actively excuded from matters and meetings where he should have been involved, he was also ridiculously part time.
I suspect this will be a criticism levelled by the court in due course - that the club was only paying lip-service to the role of the Indigenous Liason Officer.

 

[flinchfree]

By the AFL. The same AFL that conspired with ASADA to sweep the Drug Pigs' doping regime under the rug until WADA actually handled it properly. Let's not remotely pretend the AFL are an honest arbiter of anything.

Do you believe the AFL has a self interest in not supporting these allegations or are worried for the reputation of our Club more than the complainants?
That they found the allegations substantially believable and true but chose to simply try and bury it?

I find that hard to believe in today's climate.
I reckon it's more likely that they made an estimation of whose side is more likely provable, and finding no real clear winner chose to ride the fence.

Not sure they've made the wrong estimation, even with the publication of allegations.
I personally welcome the clear air, nothing leaves a stench in my nose like allegations being brought and then dropped with a buy off.
Let the truth out.

 

[brad sue well]

And how good is that model !?
Let the substantial fees earned from government-related and institutional work pay for the significant altruistic and charitable work they do, pro bono, including for the indigenous community.

Sounds like a roundabout way to close the gap. Imperfect that it isn’t direct but making lasting change.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Do you believe the AFL has a self interest in not supporting these allegations or are worried for the reputation of our Club more than the complainants?
That they found the allegations substantially believable and true but chose to simply try and bury it?

I find that hard to believe in today's climate.
I reckon it's more likely that they made an estimation of whose side is more likely provable, and finding no real clear winner chose to ride the fence.

Not sure they've made the wrong estimation, even with the publication of allegations.
I personally welcome the clear air, nothing leaves a stench in my nose like allegations being brought and then dropped with a buy off.
Let the truth out.

I believe the AFL would bury absolutely anything they could. I don't think they care about the reputation of our club - but they care about the media firestorm of one of the league's highest profile coaches being classified as a racist for months on end. After letting the Drug Pigs off the hook I don't believe the AFL has even a shred of credibility.

 

[flinchfree]

This post is pretty ****ed mate

I don't think Cyril's actions or words to this point display any altruistic motivation or big picture intent to create and assist change.
That - would have been truly valuable for our Club and wider community.
What I do know is that he is seeking monetary recompense.
I think TD's observation is harshly accurate.

 

[flinchfree]

I believe the AFL would bury absolutely anything they could. I don't think they care about the reputation of our club - but they care about the media firestorm of one of the league's highest profile coaches being classified as a racist for months on end. After letting the Drug Pigs off the hook I don't believe the AFL has even a shred of credibility.

I'd agree if the AFL had control of the story. But it was entirely un-bury-able.
There was nothing in ending the investigation that would assist Clarko et al from failing to be the headline in this story. Not short of buying off the media in it's totality and they don't have the bucks for that.

Agree they assisted in diminishing the hit to the Scum, but in that situation they owned all the information of note and knew nothing else could escape to light of day.
So they went full Mafia. In truth their actions deserved a government investigation threatening to bring the entire crime family down if they couldn't keep their soldiers in line.

 

[DogDaySonny]

I'd agree if the AFL had control of the story. But it was entirely un-bury-able.
There was nothing in ending the investigation that would assist Clarko et al from failing to be the headline in this story. Not short of buying off the media in it's totality and they don't have the bucks for that.

Agree they assisted in diminishing the hit to the Scum, but in that situation they owned all the information of note and knew nothing else could escape to light of day.
So they went full Mafia. In truth their actions deserved a government investigation threatening to bring the entire crime family down if they couldn't keep their soldiers in line.

The AFL's complaint against Hawthorn from the very beginning was that when Kennett's board heard rumours that there may be some concerns from some past aboriginal players, it commissioned an independent investigation to determine whether there was any there there. From the beginning, the AFL has never been concerned with the complaints, instead concerned only with the complaints' brand impact and the loss of control of the narrative. The AFL has been irrelevant to this whole event since the moment they first sat on the report.

The AFL's preference with issues like this is to manage them like every other issue. With a carpet and broom while keeping clubs in the dark. A player takes coke and the AFL tests it positive? Convince the player and his doctor to lie about the condition, avoiding ASADA controls and keeping clubs uninformed. Rinse and repeat.

But the AFL is as tight as can be with politicians and bureaucrats, rats keen to manage their own issues with the same technique. There will never be an investigation.

 

[I wanna pash Nash]

I don't think Cyril's actions or words to this point display any altruistic motivation or big picture intent to create and assist change.
That - would have been truly valuable for our Club and wider community.
What I do know is that he is seeking monetary recompense.
I think TD's observation is harshly accurate.

What you're actually saying is that at some arbitrary point (defined by you) Cyril's actions changed from being altruistic to monetary. It's important to be clear here.

Or, are you actually saying that even the act of Cyril bringing his grievances to light was never altruistic in nature? Especially when the club asked for him to be involved in the process? Cyril's only intention was monetary, really? You sure you want to die on that hill?

Can you tell me what Cyril has been doing with his life since retirement? From your narrative I'm getting images of him moving back up home to work up some plot (with the help of others apparently) to come and take all the clubs money?

He couldn't have possible been more involved with his community? Spending time in country? Being a good family man and Elder to his community? When he slid down the slide at the MCG were his hands stuck out at the bottom asking for some of that sweet sweet MND money. Seriously?

I'm only going hard on you here because you used the word "any". So the burden of proof is on you. You need to show without doubt that all Cyrils actions to this point have been focused on money.

Spoiler alert. You can't. Just like none of us can show that everything he is doing is 100% altruistic. So best just to stop with the blanket statement and embrace the difficulty of the situation.

Also, so much of this conversation is based on Cyril. If even half of the report is true what Cyril went through is the least of the clubs concerns. And I don't say that lightly or to trivialise what Cyril experienced in any way.

 

[flinchfree]

What you're actually saying is that at some arbitrary point (defined by you) Cyril's actions changed from being altruistic to monetary. It's important to be clear here.

Or, are you actually saying that even the act of Cyril bringing his grievances to light was never altruistic in nature? Especially when the club asked for him to be involved in the process? Cyril's only intention was monetary, really? You sure you want to die on that hill?

Can you tell me what Cyril has been doing with his life since retirement? From your narrative I'm getting images of him moving back up home to work up some plot (with the help of others apparently) to come and take all the clubs money?

He couldn't have possible been more involved with his community? Spending time in country? Being a good family man and Elder to his community? When he slid down the slide at the MCG were his hands stuck out at the bottom asking for some of that sweet sweet MND money. Seriously?

I'm only going hard on you here because you used the word "any". So the burden of proof is on you. You need to show without doubt that all Cyrils actions to this point have been focused on money.

Spoiler alert. You can't. Just like none of us can show that everything he is doing is 100% altruistic. So best just to stop with the blanket statement and embrace the difficulty of the situation.

Also, so much of this conversation is based on Cyril. If even half of the report is true what Cyril went through is the least of the clubs concerns. And I don't say that lightly or to trivialise what Cyril experienced in any way.

Well, hilarious that you both ask me to justify my opinion and tell me I can't in the same breath.
Ok.

 

[I wanna pash Nash]

Well, hilarious that you both ask me to justify my opinion and tell me I can't in the same breath.
Ok.

It's a technique used to highlight how ridiculous your statement is. I didnt ask you to justify anything. I showed that you couldn't. I apologise if it comes across as condescending. What I did ask is for you to clarify what you meant in case I've misread you.

Would be nice of you to address anything I actually said though.

 

[flinchfree]

It's a technique used to highlight how ridiculous your statement is. I didnt ask you to justify anything. I showed that you couldn't. I apologise if it comes across as condescending.

Would be nice of you to address anything I actually said though.

With you being a knob and all, I just wanted to illustrate that not knowing how to participate in a discussion forum while taking swings at me might give you the out you so obviously need.

Your loosely written thoughts don't deal with what I said.
I never said his actions began as altruistic or a money grab. As I read it they began as an an exhortation to acknowledge his hurt, his anger, his frustration, his sadness.
Altruistic, no, sadly not.
One doesn't air these particular slings and arrows and then refuse to meet or work with the parties involved to come to a better place - if what you want is shared understanding, shared commitment, and shared ownership in the path to change.

At no stage has Cyril made it clear he wants to be a part of that kind of joint venture.
He wants apology, he wants acknowledgement of wrongdoing, he wants punishment, and in my mind - retribution.
I don't particularly damn him for that, but it's ridiculous to paint his actions since leaving the Club as noble to the cause of improving the environment at Hawthorn for Indigenous Australians.

The rest of your waffle about his actions in his own community, or about me, have zero to do with the discussion.
We're not talking what kind of man he is in his home, his community.
Specifically, I take the view that Cyril is not desiring to be that agent of positive change in cooperation with the Club and the AFL at large. He wants to be paid for his loss, and for his teammates loss.

Again, not sure I blame him. But it clearly is what it is.

 

[Hawk88]

To then be providing personal advice discouraging certain personal relationships and active pregnancies within meetings where job performance was on the agenda is totally ****ed up. Anyone, regardless of race or culture could easily interpret it as being a directive tied to their employment.

So much this

We f***ed up and this is not normal practice within the realms of a workplace.

Imagine being in a corporate workplace environment and your direct managers suggesting to you that you should not sleep in the same house as your partner, terminate a relationship/pregnancy or whatever the situation is for you to continue to operate within that workplace/seek promotion

You would rightly tell them to go F*** THEMSELVES and sue the pants off them

This is not just about the colour of their skin, If the club did the same to Hodge or Mitchell it would still be deemed to be wrong!

We completely dropped the ball managing human beings.

 

[brad sue well]

I don't think Cyril's actions or words to this point display any altruistic motivation or big picture intent to create and assist change.
That - would have been truly valuable for our Club and wider community.
What I do know is that he is seeking monetary recompense.
I think TD's observation is harshly accurate.

Cyril and the families were the reason for industrial change, last year. Of course these things will be implemented to certain degrees but it is an advancement. Poor implementation/interpretation is on the AFL if so.

Maybe I am confusing this AFL plan as I thought the families themselves detailed a similar list. Quick google couldn’t find it.

I would be pretty sure it would be unlikely for a court to dictate to the AFL to make change. Making a stand does make gradual progress, doing so publicly is how I have done a tonne of learning. AFL move at their own speed, it was years later they apologised to Goodes.

The list at the bottom of this article does not advance without standing up for yourself.

Money grab, players changed their mind, so be it. They are able to reconsider, probably because they still feel like they have been treated terribly. The amounts equating to a so called money grab sound incredibly small compared to an average player wage, not even Clarkson’s vacation year that was some sort of Kennett goodwill.

AFL 2023: Family lawyer says AFL has achieved ‘nothing’ in Hawthorn Hawks racism case

amp.theage.com.au

 

[flinchfree]

So much this

We f***ed up and this is not normal practice within the realms of a workplace.

Imagine being in a corporate workplace environment and your direct managers suggesting to you that you should not sleep in the same house as your partner, terminate a relationship/pregnancy or whatever the situation is for you to continue to operate within that workplace/seek promotion

You would rightly tell them to go F*** THEMSELVES and sue the pants off them

This is not just about the colour of their skin, If the club did the same to Hodge or Mitchell it would still be deemed to be wrong!

We completely dropped the ball managing human beings.

The above bolded, I think this is the heart of it.
The failure I believe, is that Clarko stopped seeing the Club and players as a workplace, and more as family and home.
I'm hardly a Clarko apologist, was looking to move him along at least a season or two before most on here, but it's not hard to see that Alistaire is built of real emotionally connective tissue and a will to create positive outcomes.
It doesn't really matter how much you want to participate, he's gonna be funny weird grandpa who says things or does things out of the deepness of his heart and believe you'll see the good place its coming from.

I mean, I've done the same to a good friend or two.
When I was around 16 my best mate would turn up to ride our bikes to the train station with missing hair on his head, maybe a little sore in his movement, and I knew it was because his Dad had laid into him. And it wasn't an irregular thing.
I implored him to move out. I thought I knew what was best.
He looked me in the eye and told me - nah, he does it coz he loves me and wants me to do the right things.

If my mate had listened to me, i might have really ****ed his life up because he's got a great relationship with his Dad and has had since he was barely a couple years along from that difficult time, is the rock for his whole family, an amazing father and husband, and still my best friend.
But who knows what would have happened if he'd just decided in that moment to split from his family like I thought best..?

Conversely, had a really close female friend I helped and talked through moving out of her boyfriend's place and relationship.
It was toxic as shit, but she really loved him. He was never going to change, and never did, and I stuck fat in seeing her through that huge moment.
That actually worked out well, but there's a chance it might not have also. Because I wasn't to know for sure what the future held.

Clarko got it wrong, even if you take the absolute best read on his supposed words and actions. Super sad, because I reckon he's made of the right stuff and zero racist within him, at least not negatively-energized wise.

We need this court case because nothing will heal, nothing can move forward without it.
I'm hoping in court it reads as my take above, good intentions run amok, and that whoever needs whacking gets whacked.
And then move on.

 

[brad sue well]

Clarkson claims lawyers have hindered Hawthorn racism settlement

Four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson fronted the media, days after three former Hawthorn players lodged a statement of claim in the Federal Court as part of their racism action against the Hawthorn Football Club.

www.theage.com.au

 

[kazzooka]

Clarkson claims lawyers have hindered Hawthorn racism settlement

Four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson fronted the media, days after three former Hawthorn players lodged a statement of claim in the Federal Court as part of their racism action against the Hawthorn Football Club.

www.theage.com.au

"IF only the lawyers left the room, i'd be able to get my guitar our and sing a song to convince them to settle and give in to my needs. Just like i did when they wanted to boycott after the Adam Goodes saga."

 

[kazzooka]

So much this

We f***ed up and this is not normal practice within the realms of a workplace.

Imagine being in a corporate workplace environment and your direct managers suggesting to you that you should not sleep in the same house as your partner, terminate a relationship/pregnancy or whatever the situation is for you to continue to operate within that workplace/seek promotion

You would rightly tell them to go F*** THEMSELVES and sue the pants off them

This is not just about the colour of their skin, If the club did the same to Hodge or Mitchell it would still be deemed to be wrong!

We completely dropped the ball managing human beings.

Agree with this, and I'm surprised this hasn't resulted in a bigger investigation. Many of the allegations could be argued have nothing to do with race. Which would then lead to the question, what other players had similar interactions?

 

[I wanna pash Nash]

With you being a knob and all, I just wanted to illustrate that not knowing how to participate in a discussion forum while taking swings at me might give you the out you so obviously need.

Your loosely written thoughts don't deal with what I said.
I never said his actions began as altruistic or a money grab. As I read it they began as an an exhortation to acknowledge his hurt, his anger, his frustration, his sadness.
Altruistic, no, sadly not.
One doesn't air these particular slings and arrows and then refuse to meet or work with the parties involved to come to a better place - if what you want is shared understanding, shared commitment, and shared ownership in the path to change.

At no stage has Cyril made it clear he wants to be a part of that kind of joint venture.
He wants apology, he wants acknowledgement of wrongdoing, he wants punishment, and in my mind - retribution.
I don't particularly damn him for that, but it's ridiculous to paint his actions since leaving the Club as noble to the cause of improving the environment at Hawthorn for Indigenous Australians.

The rest of your waffle about his actions in his own community, or about me, have zero to do with the discussion.
We're not talking what kind of man he is in his home, his community.
Specifically, I take the view that Cyril is not desiring to be that agent of positive change in cooperation with the Club and the AFL at large. He wants to be paid for his loss, and for his teammates loss.

Again, not sure I blame him. But it clearly is what it is.

Not the first time I've been called a knob so I'll take that one on the chin.

Thank you for the clarity, I don't actually disagree with some of what you've just said. It was your earlier statement "I don't think Cyril's actions or words to this point display any altruistic motivation or big picture intent to create and assist change." that I had issues with (apologies I don't know how to double quote).

I guess our definition of altruistic is different. I view that if Cyril approached any of this with any intention at all to share honestly his expereince to make Hawthorn a better place as altruistic. But I don't know if he did or didn't. I took issue with the assertion that you implied that you know certainly that he didn't.

Honest question because I honestly can't recall but Cyril was involved in the inital report correct? Surely this is being involved in a joint venture? After it leaked things went south quick and perhaps his motives changed but I like to believe at least this inital step was done with altruism. Which is why I implied that you must mean that at least this started off with good intentions but now is only about recompense.

As for why I mentioned his actions in his community. I think it is important to note that Cyril has seemingly not lived a life of gluttony since ending his career. He seems to care deeply for his community and value that highly. These are values that I think point towards a nature that is somewhat alinged with being altruistic. And I think are important when talking about this issue.

What might be altruistic for Cyril and his community may not necessarily be for Hawthorn. And that might the foundation of where we disagree.

Now, not for one moment do I presume that the money does not matter to him and his family somewhat. Or that Cyril doesn't want justice or some form of apology or payment from Hawthorn. But I do not think it is the only thing that matters for him. I genuinely believe Cyril would like Hawthorn and the AFL at large to be a better place for Indigenous people moving forward.

Whether the way Cyril is going about it is the best way to create that change is a different story. I just don't think he is doing it without any altruistic thought at all. And I don't like the insinuation that this is all about money and retribution.

 

[jumpingjai]

And how good is that model !?
Let the substantial fees earned from government-related and institutional work pay for the significant altruistic and charitable work they do, pro bono, including for the indigenous community.

Yep
$1 for them
$1000 for us
Altruism at its finest.

The words ABL and altruism are rarely heard together

 

[brad sue well]

Imagine learning about JML and then being his boss and not think, this guy has “overcome some adversity”, he needs heaps of care. Lifelong scars pre draft yet gets drafted. Sounds like leadership material. Probably thought, he will learn about hardship on Kokoda but it is wrong to equate trauma.

Says something about the coaches as people.

Mental and physical cost of the coaches are self inflicted and that same type of toll on the families, coach inflicted.

 

[flinchfree]

Not the first time I've been called a knob so I'll take that one on the chin.

Thank you for the clarity, I don't actually disagree with some of what you've just said. It was your earlier statement "I don't think Cyril's actions or words to this point display any altruistic motivation or big picture intent to create and assist change." that I had issues with (apologies I don't know how to double quote).

I guess our definition of altruistic is different. I view that if Cyril approached any of this with any intention at all to share honestly his expereince to make Hawthorn a better place as altruistic. But I don't know if he did or didn't. I took issue with the assertion that you implied that you know certainly that he didn't.

Honest question because I honestly can't recall but Cyril was involved in the inital report correct? Surely this is being involved in a joint venture? After it leaked things went south quick and perhaps his motives changed but I like to believe at least this inital step was done with altruism. Which is why I implied that you must mean that at least this started off with good intentions but now is only about recompense.

As for why I mentioned his actions in his community. I think it is important to note that Cyril has seemingly not lived a life of gluttony since ending his career. He seems to care deeply for his community and value that highly. These are values that I think point towards a nature that is somewhat alinged with being altruistic. And I think are important when talking about this issue.

What might be altruistic for Cyril and his community may not necessarily be for Hawthorn. And that might the foundation of where we disagree.

Now, not for one moment do I presume that the money does not matter to him and his family somewhat. Or that Cyril doesn't want justice or some form of apology or payment from Hawthorn. But I do not think it is the only thing that matters for him. I generally believe Cyril would like Hawthorn and the AFL at large to be a better place for Indigenous people moving forward.

Whether the way Cyril is going about it is the best way to create that change is a different story. I just don't think he is doing it without any altruistic thought at all. And I don't like the insinuation that this is all about money and retribution.

Altruism is about selflessness.
If you want to attribute any selflessness to Cyril in this mess, it likely starts and stops at being the leading edge for playing mates he probably thinks don't have the iron stomach to come at our Club or AFL with their stories.
It would be enormously difficult being lower profile players that don't feel empowered in Australian society, and taking on such large corporations and public figures.
It's likely Cyril is acting their champion having navigated public scrutiny for much of his career, and that he feels a duty to give voice to their grievances.

I still reckon he'd achieve far more at the table with Sam and Andy than he can hope to achieve in a finding of our court system.
And that, would be altruistic.