NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[the big lebowski]

You've forgotten the first three steps in the process.

Step 1 Wait for a decade
Step 2 Give Cyril's wife a pair of torn jeans
Step 3 Wait until the torn jeans produce a review into indigenous treatment by HFC

But yes I'd assume and hope that they're receiving good legal advice that benefits the families at the centre of this.

I’m not saying it’s orchestrated from the accusers. But once this review was announced, especially where it was anonymous and you could say whatever you wanted without being challenged, the strategy started

 

[sr36]

I’m not saying it’s orchestrated from the accusers. But once this review was announced, especially where it was anonymous and you could say whatever you wanted without being challenged, the strategy started

At this stage, they've got legal representation and you'd assume a strategy to get the most favourable hearing possible. I agree with that part of what you're saying. But to take it further back seems fictitious to me.

 

[the big lebowski]

At this stage, they've got legal representation and you'd assume a strategy to get the most favourable hearing possible. I agree with that part of what you're saying. But to take it further back seems fictitious to me.

4 out of 5 complainants, that were anonymous to one another all settled on the same lawyer 4 days after the article broke.

 

[Gralin]

The willingness to dismiss or minimise Jackson's ugly misogynist attack says a great deal about those doing it

It is also an unavoidable demonstration of his overinvestment and complete unwillingness to entertain any other side of the story.

Keep shooting the messenger bro

 

[sr36]

4 out of 5 complainants, that were anonymous to one another all settled on the same lawyer 4 days after the article broke.

At some stage they lawyered up. When? We don't know. Fair chance the ABC would have advised them to if they hadn't done so already. Possibly before then?

 

[the big lebowski]

At some stage they lawyered up. When? We don't know. Fair chance the ABC would have advised them to if they hadn't done so already. Possibly before then?

Sure. There’s lawyering up, then there is picking the same lawyer in a very short time frame.

I’m not knocking them for it. It’s smart. It just also appears to me to be part of an overall pre planned strategy, that was certainly planned before the abc article came out.

I mean, how well have they played it? The first terms of reference had an apology and admission of guilt built into it for the coaches

 

[Rob R]

In the simplest possible way, I’d say they are getting financial compensation in the least intrusive manner possible.

It seems this investigation will

- not require cross examination or any real avenue for their stories to be contested

- they can remain completely anonymous

- their evidence can be submitted via video, written statements etc

- the afl and hawthorn seem ready to shower them in money to make this go away

- the outcome will be largely determined by a panel made up of 50% indigenous people that are on record as indigenous advocates

Vs commence civil proceedings

- their evidence and character will be tested to the extreme

- don’t think they will be able to be anonymous

- a random jury will determine the outcome

- outcome and compensation unpredictable

There is zero chance this pane doesn’t find some form of racism.

Do you disagree with any of the above?

If either side refuses to agree to cross examination then it is not an investigation but a farce

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[the big lebowski]

If either side refuses to agree to cross examination then it is not an investigation but a farce

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

It really does seem like submissions can not only not be cross examined but also not even done in person.

But don’t take that as fact. That’s just my interpretation of what is in the TOR.

But if it is as I understand, the accused would be crazy to submit to it. Yes I get the afl cam compel them but I’d be wanting to ensure it was done in court.

 

[HairyO]

It really does seem like submissions can not only not be cross examined but also not even done in person.

But don’t take that as fact. That’s just my interpretation of what is in the TOR.

But if it is as I understand, the accused would be crazy to submit to it. Yes I get the afl cam compel them but I’d be wanting to ensure it was done in court.

I very much doubt the AFL can compel them to anything without also being dragged in to legal procedings.

 

[mcnulty]

Culturally sensitive? This is not close to be culturally sensitive. The problem starts when hierarchies and power is involved. Many Aboriginal people have a mistrust of the system. Either they, their parents or Grandparents have been burnt by authorities, police, judges, wardens, governments teachers, ministers, barristers etc. The moment it is deemed a power imbalance many Aboriginal people will revert into a shell where if I close my mouth and not say anything I am a better chance of not being humiliated, belittled or in some cases dehumanised. Hold the meeting on a riverbank or beach with elders and you will find everything yu need to know.
Aboriginal people will not get a voice until we change the way systems are structured.

Someone has to hear this mate. Someone has to preside over this, eventually. And both parties need to be heard, and held to account.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

In the simplest possible way, I’d say they are getting financial compensation in the least intrusive manner possible.

It seems this investigation will

- not require cross examination or any real avenue for their stories to be contested

- they can remain completely anonymous

- their evidence can be submitted via video, written statements etc

- the afl and hawthorn seem ready to shower them in money to make this go away

- the outcome will be largely determined by a panel made up of 50% indigenous people that are on record as indigenous advocates

Vs commence civil proceedings

- their evidence and character will be tested to the extreme

- don’t think they will be able to be anonymous

- a random jury will determine the outcome

- outcome and compensation unpredictable

There is zero chance this pane doesn’t find some form of racism.

Do you disagree with any of the above?

You might be right that this is a great outcome for the players vis a vis alternatives at hand, and that through the process they might get a solid outcome. I think it is less about content and outcomes and more about process at this stage. If people are not comfortable with a process, they will always be reluctant to engage.

I think it is important to remember that we are talking about people who have experienced deep trauma in the AFL system and have extremely low degrees of trust (actually, probably better to express it as extremely high degrees of mistrust).

It’s alway important, but particularly important, in situations like this that time is taken to co-design processes that all parties, but most importantly the aggrieved parties, feel safe and confident in.

I think it is telling that time seems to be the big thing that the AFL is not willing to compromise on. They rushed out an announcement of the panel before the panel was selected, they rushed out the panel before the TOR were set, they rushed out the TOR before the aggrieved parties were comfortable, with one of the main sticking points being the arbitrary timeframe for conducting the review.

Where’s the rush here? The players have been living with these things for years. Take the time to do this right. Let the coaches go back to coaching by all means (they voluntarily stood down anyway). Just take the time to do it right.

The rush is coming from the AFL to media manage. The rush is coming from Gil wanting to wrap this up neatly before his tenure is over. The rush is coming to enable the coaches to get to work with a clean slate. Amongst all this, the needs of the traumatised players and their families are no where to be found.

It is again (white) people in power determining what is right for them and their families. I can more than understand why they are reluctant to take any part in the process.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Not sure I follow

What you heard was often determined by the colour of your skin

 

[the big lebowski]

You might be right that this is a great outcome for the players vis a vis alternatives at hand, and that through the process they might get a solid outcome. I think it is less about content and outcomes and more about process at this stage. If people are not comfortable with a process, they will always be reluctant to engage.

I think it is important to remember that we are talking about people who have experienced deep trauma in the AFL system and have extremely low degrees of trust (actually, probably better to express it as extremely high degrees of mistrust).

It’s alway important, but particularly important, in situations like this that time is taken to co-design processes that all parties, but most importantly the aggrieved parties, feel safe and confident in.

I think it is telling that time seems to be the big thing that the AFL is not willing to compromise on. They rushed out an announcement of the panel before the panel was selected, they rushed out the panel before the TOR were set, they rushed out the TOR before the aggrieved parties were comfortable, with one of the main sticking points being the arbitrary timeframe for conducting the review.

Where’s the rush here? The players have been living with these things for years. Take the time to do this right. Let the coaches go back to coaching by all means (they voluntarily stood down anyway). Just take the time to do it right.

The rush is coming from the AFL to media manage. The rush is coming from Gil wanting to wrap this up neatly before his tenure is over. The rush is coming to enable the coaches to get to work with a clean slate. Amongst all this, the needs of the traumatised players and their families are no where to be found.

It is again (white) people in power determining what is right for them and their families. I can more than understand why they are reluctant to take any part in the process.

I agree mostly.

The AFL’s attempts to push for a resolution doesn’t help anyone. I don’t see the time issue being a negative for anyone. But that’s neither here nor there for me.

As I said before, the AFL should have just said that given the mistrust from aggrieved parties, coupled with the seriousness of the allegations, a traditional AFL investigation is not appropriate. We encourage any party that feels that muscly has occurred to seek legal redress, which the AFL will assist them in if required”

They have bent over backwards teething to keep this in-house, but I seriously doubt that it’s in their control in anyway now.

 

[the big lebowski]

What you heard was often determined by the colour of your skin

No it’s 100% determined by my ears

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I agree mostly.

The AFL’s attempts to push for a resolution doesn’t help anyone. I don’t see the time issue being a negative for anyone. But that’s neither here nor there for me.

As I said before, the AFL should have just said that given the mistrust from aggrieved parties, coupled with the seriousness of the allegations, a traditional AFL investigation is not appropriate. We encourage any party that feels that muscly has occurred to seek legal redress, which the AFL will assist them in if required”

They have bent over backwards teething to keep this in-house, but I seriously doubt that it’s in their control in anyway now.

I agree with your last two paragraphs.

On your second paragraph, the time issue is a massive issue for the players and their families. With all the respect in the world, whether the time issue matters to you (or me for that matter) does not matter one iota.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

No it’s 100% determined by my ears

If you were black, do you truly think you would have not experienced any racism in the 300 odd games you mentioned you have attended since you last saw outrageous racism at a football game?

 

[South of the Yarra]

No it’s 100% determined by my ears

So your ears would have heard the same raise remarks as an Aboriginal player ir an Aboriginal supporter in the crowd

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

You might be right that this is a great outcome for the players vis a vis alternatives at hand, and that through the process they might get a solid outcome. I think it is less about content and outcomes and more about process at this stage. If people are not comfortable with a process, they will always be reluctant to engage.

I think it is important to remember that we are talking about people who have experienced deep trauma in the AFL system and have extremely low degrees of trust (actually, probably better to express it as extremely high degrees of mistrust).

It’s alway important, but particularly important, in situations like this that time is taken to co-design processes that all parties, but most importantly the aggrieved parties, feel safe and confident in.

I think it is telling that time seems to be the big thing that the AFL is not willing to compromise on. They rushed out an announcement of the panel before the panel was selected, they rushed out the panel before the TOR were set, they rushed out the TOR before the aggrieved parties were comfortable, with one of the main sticking points being the arbitrary timeframe for conducting the review.

Where’s the rush here? The players have been living with these things for years. Take the time to do this right. Let the coaches go back to coaching by all means (they voluntarily stood down anyway). Just take the time to do it right.

The rush is coming from the AFL to media manage. The rush is coming from Gil wanting to wrap this up neatly before his tenure is over. The rush is coming to enable the coaches to get to work with a clean slate. Amongst all this, the needs of the traumatised players and their families are no where to be found.

It is again (white) people in power determining what is right for them and their families. I can more than understand why they are reluctant to take any part in the process.

But what do the players get from an AFL inquiry/investigation?

The AFL inquiry is for the AFL and Hawthorn to understand WTF happened, and to dish out punishments to anyone under their control, whom they decide has done something wrong.

I don't see the AFL inquiry meaning anything to the players, unless their only intent is for Clarkson and co. to cop an AFL punishment.

The AFL inquiry, is exactly that. It's an AFL inquiry.

I don't see how it is of any relevance whatsoever to the players

 

[the big lebowski]

I agree with your last two paragraphs.

On your second paragraph, the time issue is a massive issue for the players and their families. With all the respect in the world, whether the time issue matters to you (or me for that matter) does not matter one iota.

Sure, I just don’t get how the timeframe actually impacts the accusers. Other than them feeling it’s being pushed through quickly to help the clubs involved. But I can’t see why this would take so long. 1.5 months is a long time to speak,read,watch 20-40 submissions.

Higgins rape trial has taken 2 weeks, which whilst I acknowledge it’s only 1 person and 1 accused, probably has more witnesses.

Maybe the afl should just not have mentioned an end date/goal of finalisation.

But by and large 1.5 months should be enough time to get it done imo.

 

[the big lebowski]

You realise they can do that anyway, yeah?

Of course. Hence the afl should have abstained from this compromised investigation. As I said, there is no way indigenous advocates are not going to find racism. No chance.

 

[the big lebowski]

If you were black, do you truly think you would have not experienced any racism in the 300 odd games you mentioned you have attended since you last saw outrageous racism at a football game?

Just to rehash.

I went to the footy as a kid in 1993, heard terrible words and phrases yelled at Adrian mccadam as he kicked 10 goals against the pies. My dad said he’d never go to a Collingwood game again. In the subsequent 300 games I’ve since attended I’ve never heard someone yell out those or other clearly racist remarks.

What colour I am has nothing to do with the words I hear from those around me.

 

[the big lebowski]

But what do the players get from an AFL inquiry/investigation?

The AFL inquiry is for the AFL and Hawthorn to understand WTF happened, and to dish out punishments to anyone under their control, whom they decide has done something wrong.

I don't see the AFL inquiry meaning anything to the players, unless their only intent is for Clarkson and co. to cop an AFL punishment.

The AFL inquiry, is exactly that. It's an AFL inquiry.

I don't see how it is of any relevance whatsoever to the players

The terms of reference specifically call for mediation at any point in the process of one side desires it.

So, let’s say $1,000,000 for each accuser.

Is that something?

 

[the big lebowski]

It’s their jurisdiction. There is no other jurisdiction to handle this, at this point in time. Aggrieved parties can appeal to a higher court.

Not sure why everyone seems to struggle with this.

At any point over the last 10 years the accusers could have sued the afl and hawthorn in a court of law. At any point until they sign a mediation deal they can sue the afl and hawthorn.

So I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Employees sue their employer every day

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

A

Sure, I just don’t get how the timeframe actually impacts the accusers. Other than them feeling it’s being pushed through quickly to help the clubs involved. But I can’t see why this would take so long. 1.5 months is a long time to speak,read,watch 20-40 submissions.

Higgins rape trial has taken 2 weeks, which whilst I acknowledge it’s only 1 person and 1 accused, probably has more witnesses.

Maybe the afl should just not have mentioned an end date/goal of finalisation.

But by and large 1.5 months should be enough time to get it done imo.

Again, what you think doesn’t matter. The lawyers of the players have made it clear that they don’t believe a culturally safe review can be completed within a one-month time boxed review.

Also, Higgins’ rape trial would have involved months of preparation from both parties, including time for discovery and other formal court processes - so even if you opinion mattered (it doesn’t), you have shot your argument in the foot.

 

[boncer34]

Sure, I just don’t get how the timeframe actually impacts the accusers. Other than them feeling it’s being pushed through quickly to help the clubs involved. But I can’t see why this would take so long. 1.5 months is a long time to speak,read,watch 20-40 submissions.

Higgins rape trial has taken 2 weeks, which whilst I acknowledge it’s only 1 person and 1 accused, probably has more witnesses.

Maybe the afl should just not have mentioned an end date/goal of finalisation.

But by and large 1.5 months should be enough time to get it done imo.

Uh that's 2 weeks to present the evidence to a Jury. You think the lawyers just rocked up at the start of the trial having done zero prep? They've had months to prepare and gather the evidence.