NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[perplexed]

^ maybe they're aware of the fact that it's not defamation if it's true..

They will still have to testify to that somewhere or other. They can't have thought that telling their story to Jackson would be the end of the matter.

 

[ferball]

I didn’t comment on that. I just stated a fact that indigenous prisoners are no more likely to die in custody than non indigenous prisoners. Infact stats unequivocally show they are less likely to die in custody.

Just stating a fact. Sorry if that angers you.

Okay fair enopugh.

See the bolded. That is true once they are in custody.

But its not true before they are ever in custody.

An indigenous person with no criminal record and no interaction with the just us system is more likely to die in custody than a non indigenous person in the same situation. A higher proportion of the indigenous population die in custody than non indigenous people across the whole population.

That isn't a better situation.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You really don’t get it, no matter how much it’s explained to you. They knew they were part of an ongoing investigation when they went to the media. This has accelerated the process and made it very public. People have been suggesting, perhaps logically, that they went to the AFL to force their hand. Now people are claiming they’re ”sick” of it. Or worried it’s being rushed, which I don’t buy for a second.

As another poster put it, this is head hurting stuff. They have their chance to substantiate their claims to a panel that appears culturally sensitive and has been given independence from the AFL. They are being encouraged to take it.

Culturally sensitive? This is not close to be culturally sensitive. The problem starts when hierarchies and power is involved. Many Aboriginal people have a mistrust of the system. Either they, their parents or Grandparents have been burnt by authorities, police, judges, wardens, governments teachers, ministers, barristers etc. The moment it is deemed a power imbalance many Aboriginal people will revert into a shell where if I close my mouth and not say anything I am a better chance of not being humiliated, belittled or in some cases dehumanised. Hold the meeting on a riverbank or beach with elders and you will find everything yu need to know.
Aboriginal people will not get a voice until we change the way systems are structured.

 

[the big lebowski]

Okay fair enopugh.

See the bolded. That is true once they are in custody.

But its not true before they are ever in custody.

An indigenous person with no criminal record and no interaction with the just us system is more likely to die in custody than a non indigenous person in the same situation. A higher proportion of the indigenous population die in custody than non indigenous people across the whole population.

That isn't a better situation.

We agree on this

 

[ferball]

There have been few tangible developments since the article dropped. Just some diversionary garbage questioning Jackson's credibility because of a 120character tweet. (Or whatever the limit is these days)

That was a disgraceful act on his part.

Dr Hood is CEO of Community Hubs Australia, an organisation dedicated to providing otherwise isolated migrant women with the opportunity to connect to their community via their kids schooling. His tweet is a direct attempt to undermine her position there. Nothing else. She was also instrumental in building the Huddle, which led the AFL in terms of community engagement. he's trying to attack her to improve his position as a crusading journo not cos its a reasonable option.

She's put herself on the line here because she's willing to give Clarkson a go and is probably trying to promote some mediated outcome that gives everyone a fair result. She would have spoken to our indigenous players, and our former indigenous players about this. She'd have made sure she was across facts that we don't have access to yet. Everything she does shows she isn't half arsed and self interested about how she approaches things so I don't see why that would suddenly change yet jackson is implying he doesn't give a shit about this stuff and that her career is fake.

Its the sort of stuff Snake Baker used to say about her before she was president.

It seems to me that Jackson wants some sort of bloodletting as a result of this situation and he doesn't care who he gets or how he does it.

Before that tweet I wouldn't have thought that. Now ... **** the maggot.

 

[sr36]

Think the problem with Clarkson is he is so footy based Footy is number 1 , he probably would offer the same advise based on the kids situation not colour to save a career. Unlike Matt Rendall disgraceful "one white parent comment " which people have no idea how much it affected recruitment guidelines and KPIs, how that guy is allowed to continue to be on Trade Radio or comment on anything AFL is beyond me

Disagree with you totally on Rendell. You missed the point.

He was talking about the issues that the industry was having with including Indigenous kids who'd grown up in indigenous communities. Which is very likely the crux of this whole story.

He's bombastic and likes to say things in a way that'll have an impact. But he was just saying that if the industry doesn't become more inclusive, recruiters will stop recruiting from indigenous communities, due to the high failure rates that were occurring at the time.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Just on a side note to digress from all the tension I thought I would share a story. I think it was 1981 and Collingwood was playing Carlton at Princess Park. I think both teams were undefeated, and the place was jammed. It was the day a 19 year old Peter Daicos booted 7 on Doull and Hunter.
A couple of Carlton fans were given some of the worst racial abuse (yes I know Collingwood fans have been more than horrific in this regard) to an Aboriginal man standing quietly minding his own business. Those giving the abuse were frustrated that they were not receiving a response, so they decided to become physical by pushing and shoving. It was over quiet quickly as the Aboriginal man took another sip of his beer and the 3 abusers slowly picked themselves up off the ground licking their wounds. They quietly disappeared into the crowd to hide their embarrassment as Lionel Rose went about watching the footy.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Just on a side note to digress from all the tension I thought I would share a story. I think it was 1981 and Collingwood was playing Carlton at Princess Park. I think both teams were undefeated, and the place was jammed. It was the day a 19 year old Peter Daicos booted 7 on Doull and Hunter.
A couple of Carlton fans were given some of the worst racial abuse (yes I know Collingwood fans have been more than horrific in this regard) to an Aboriginal man standing quietly minding his own business. Those giving the abuse were frustrated that they were not receiving a response, so they decided to become physical by pushing and shoving. It was over quiet quickly as the Aboriginal man took another sip of his beer and the 3 abusers slowly picked themselves up off the ground licking their wounds. They quietly disappeared into the crowd to hide their embarrassment as Lionel Rose went about watching the footy.

Bastards, picking on a little bloke.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Bastards, picking on a little bloke.

Obviously we knew who it was so we just watched and waited. I think we stopped watching the footy for a bit. The thing that got me about Lionel that day was that he was unflappable to the verbal abuse. Not sure if that was a good thing or a sad thing. He may have put on a few kilos by then.

 

[the big lebowski]

Just on a side note to digress from all the tension I thought I would share a story. I think it was 1981 and Collingwood was playing Carlton at Princess Park. I think both teams were undefeated, and the place was jammed. It was the day a 19 year old Peter Daicos booted 7 on Doull and Hunter.
A couple of Carlton fans were given some of the worst racial abuse (yes I know Collingwood fans have been more than horrific in this regard) to an Aboriginal man standing quietly minding his own business. Those giving the abuse were frustrated that they were not receiving a response, so they decided to become physical by pushing and shoving. It was over quiet quickly as the Aboriginal man took another sip of his beer and the 3 abusers slowly picked themselves up off the ground licking their wounds. They quietly disappeared into the crowd to hide their embarrassment as Lionel Rose went about watching the footy.

I was at Vic park in 1993, with my Collingwood supporting dad watching north play the pies. Adrian macaddam kicked a lazy 10 and during his destruction of the pies I heard the most hateful disgusting language I’ve ever heard. I was only a kid so maybe I remember it as worse than what it was. But I kept asking my dad why the Collingwood supporters would say these things about such a great player. He couldn’t give an answer but as we walked back to the car he said he’d never take me to another Collingwood game after what we witnessed.

To his word, it was only north games after that.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I was at Vic park in 1993, with my Collingwood supporting dad watching north play the pies. Adrian macaddam kicked a lazy 10 and during his destruction of the pies I heard the most hateful disgusting language I’ve ever heard. I was only a kid so maybe I remember it as worse than what it was. But I kept asking my dad why the Collingwood supporters would say these things about such a great player. He couldn’t give an answer but as we walked back to the car he said he’d never take me to another Collingwood game after what we witnessed.

To his word, it was only north games after that.

No you remember it as it was. Horrific. Abuse against Aboriginal people has been and still is in many places appalling

 

[the big lebowski]

No you remember it as it was. Horrific. Abuse against Aboriginal people has been and still is in many places appalling

Interestingly, since then I would have to have been to 300 odd games of footy and I can’t recall ever hearing a racial slur (obviously I’m not saying racists haven’t vilified indigenous players (or others) since, just that I’ve never heard it).

 

[South of the Yarra]

Interestingly, since then I would have to have been to 300 odd games of footy and I can’t recall ever hearing a racial slur (obviously I’m not saying racists haven’t vilified indigenous players (or others) since, just that I’ve never heard it).

Has stopped in recent years but before that horrific and by ALL clubs at all games.

 

[the big lebowski]

Has stopped in recent years but before that horrific and by ALL clubs at all games.

Also depends on where you sit I expect

 

[South of the Yarra]

Also depends on where you sit I expect

Often depends on who you are

 

[the big lebowski]

Often depends on who you are

Not sure I follow

 

[sr36]

A bit late to be thinking about taking things further, speaking to Jackson was never going to be the end of it. They should have taken their grievances to Yoorrook or similar first rather than speaking to Jackson. By going to the press and defaming people they have lost control of the process. Jackson would have been aware of this and should have suggested they get legal advice before talking to him. Of course then he wouldn't have got his story.

Let's not forget that these people have probably done nothing more than tell their story.

Meanwhile, the AFL is rushing to get a quick outcome for North and Brisbane and quick justice one way or the other for the coaches. What exactly are the claimants, the potential victims, getting from this review?

 

[the big lebowski]

Let's not forget that these people have probably done nothing more than tell their story.

Meanwhile, the AFL is rushing to get a quick outcome for North and Brisbane and quick justice one way or the other for the coaches. What exactly are the claimants, the potential victims, getting from this review?

In the simplest possible way, I’d say they are getting financial compensation in the least intrusive manner possible.

It seems this investigation will

- not require cross examination or any real avenue for their stories to be contested

- they can remain completely anonymous

- their evidence can be submitted via video, written statements etc

- the afl and hawthorn seem ready to shower them in money to make this go away

- the outcome will be largely determined by a panel made up of 50% indigenous people that are on record as indigenous advocates

Vs commence civil proceedings

- their evidence and character will be tested to the extreme

- don’t think they will be able to be anonymous

- a random jury will determine the outcome

- outcome and compensation unpredictable

There is zero chance this pane doesn’t find some form of racism.

Do you disagree with any of the above?

 

[sr36]

In the simplest possible way, I’d say they are getting financial compensation in the least intrusive manner possible.

It seems this investigation will

- not require cross examination or any real avenue for their stories to be contested

- they can remain completely anonymous

- their evidence can be submitted via video, written statements etc

- the afl and hawthorn seem ready to shower them in money to make this go away

- the outcome will be largely determined by a panel made up of 50% indigenous people that are on record as indigenous advocates

Vs commence civil proceedings

- their evidence and character will be tested to the extreme

- don’t think they will be able to be anonymous

- a random jury will determine the outcome

- outcome and compensation unpredictable

There is zero chance this pane doesn’t find some form of racism.

Do you disagree with any of the above?

I don't know enough to agree or disagree. However, I don't see why posters would feel they are obligated to participate and tell their stories again to a second AFL review.

 

[the big lebowski]

I don't know enough to agree or disagree. However, I don't see why posters would feel they are obligated to participate and tell their stories again to a second AFL review.

When was the first one?

And no, they aren’t obligated to do anything

 

[sr36]

When was the first one?

And no, they aren’t obligated to do anything

Hawthorn Football Club.

It's lost amongst the article outrage that, fingers crossed, there'd be an inquiry without the article and the AFL would be pushing for their terms and the claimants would won't their own.

 

[perplexed]

Let's not forget that these people have probably done nothing more than tell their story.

Meanwhile, the AFL is rushing to get a quick outcome for North and Brisbane and quick justice one way or the other for the coaches. What exactly are the claimants, the potential victims, getting from this review?

They told their story to a friendly journo knowing it would cause damage to the people they were accusing. That isn't a benign act. They could have taken it to authorities such as the Yoorrook Justice Commission, they didn't. As I keep saying, I wouldn't have anything to do with the AFL process if I was one of the players, but if they want this to go anywhere they have to be willing to have their claims tested by someone other than Russell Jackson.

 

[Del191229]

That was a disgraceful act on his part.

Dr Hood is CEO of Community Hubs Australia, an organisation dedicated to providing otherwise isolated migrant women with the opportunity to connect to their community via their kids schooling. His tweet is a direct attempt to undermine her position there. Nothing else. She was also instrumental in building the Huddle, which led the AFL in terms of community engagement. he's trying to attack her to improve his position as a crusading journo not cos its a reasonable option.

She's put herself on the line here because she's willing to give Clarkson a go and is probably trying to promote some mediated outcome that gives everyone a fair result. She would have spoken to our indigenous players, and our former indigenous players about this. She'd have made sure she was across facts that we don't have access to yet. Everything she does shows she isn't half arsed and self interested about how she approaches things so I don't see why that would suddenly change yet jackson is implying he doesn't give a s**t about this stuff and that her career is fake.

Its the sort of stuff Snake Baker used to say about her before she was president.

It seems to me that Jackson wants some sort of bloodletting as a result of this situation and he doesn't care who he gets or how he does it.

Before that tweet I wouldn't have thought that. Now ... * the maggot.

The willingness to dismiss or minimise Jackson's ugly misogynist attack says a great deal about those doing it

It is also an unavoidable demonstration of his overinvestment and complete unwillingness to entertain any other side of the story.

 

[the big lebowski]

Hawthorn Football Club.

It's lost amongst the article outrage that, fingers crossed, there'd be an inquiry without the article.

It wasn’t hawthorn

It was an indigenous group on behalf of hawthorn

But I guess that neither here nor there.

I believe this has all been an orchestrated strategy from the legal minds advising the players and families. They’ve played it perfectly.

1: get public opinion on their side with no chance of the other side of the story being heard

2: pretend they won’t participate in order to get the terms of reference, the panel composition and the investigation mechanics on their side

3: panel guaranteed to fall on their side which helps of and when an actual trial begins where they have to expose themselves to cross examination in front of people that don’t advocate in their personal lives for indigenous issues

It’s a very slick operation that seems to have been thought up by Peter Jess

 

[sr36]

It wasn’t hawthorn

It was an indigenous group on behalf of hawthorn

But I guess that neither here nor there.

I believe this has all been an orchestrated strategy from the legal minds advising the players and families. They’ve played it perfectly.

1: get public opinion on their side with no chance of the other side of the story being heard

2: pretend they won’t participate in order to get the terms of reference, the panel composition and the investigation mechanics on their side

3: panel guaranteed to fall on their side which helps of and when an actual trial begins where they have to expose themselves to cross examination in front of people that don’t advocate in their personal lives for indigenous issues

It’s a very slick operation that seems to have been thought up by Peter Jess

You've forgotten the first three steps in the process.

Step 1 Wait for a decade
Step 2 Give Cyril's wife a pair of torn jeans
Step 3 Wait until the torn jeans produce a review into indigenous treatment by HFC

Imagine if she was wearing something else that day.

But yes I'd assume and hope that they're receiving good legal advice that benefits the families at the centre of this.