HFC - 'The Mini Rebuild'

[Miss_Hawk_Fan]

So I still don't see the point the original poster was making when he started this thread.

Go easy Pipcoo, Great 2008 is still classified as a newbie and i think it is the off season and he is just reviewing the Hawks 08-09 season and making conversation and vailid points.

Injury killed us with more than just the six mentioned here; We also had players, playng games injured. Hodge, Browny, Buddy, Ellis and co.

We are in good position and are developing depth, be ready for a much improved 2010...... Top 6 postion coming up. Gibbo and Burger to fit into the team nicely.

Awesome combonation now

Defence: Gibbo, Gilham, Shoey, Browny, W-cross
Midfeild: Bateman, Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Sheils

 

[kolchak]

Our supporters overate our players almost as bad as Collingwood. Evidence: This thread.

 

[Yuley95]

Our supporters overate our players almost as bad as Collingwood. Evidence: This thread.

Winning a GF can do that

 

[SA HAWK]

Crawford- Burgoyne
Croad- Gibson & Schoenmakers
Williams- Hooper
Campbell- Taylor (however Renouf 2010, will be a lot better tha Renouf 2008 so it compensates the loss of Campbell for Taylor a bit more)
Dew- The position a young player needs to grab hold of. We have plenty of options.

The highlighted ins are nowhere near as good as the outs and that is the problem.

Especially losing croad & campbell.

 

[DannyJ]

The highlighted ins are nowhere near as good as the outs and that is the problem.

Especially losing croad & campbell.

The improvment of Renouf could compensate such a loss. He has having another pre-season which could allow him to be very servicable in 2010.

Hooper for Williams will turn out a better balance for our team IMO. We need his defensive skills.

Josh Gibson isn't quite as good as Croad, however a good defender entering his prime. Remember Croad wasn't as consistent until he entered the age bracket of 26-28. Gibson is entering that bracket. The emergance of Ryan Schoenmakers will mean our defence has more tricks than 2008. Remember people claiming we needed a 'third tall'. Well now, we have Gibson, Gilham, and Schoenmakers. St. Kilda only have Dawson, Blake as there FB, CHB. The two individually aren't that good, however there defence as a unit works extremely well, something Ross Smith must aspire to get ours to do.

I think a general improvement of players across the board will be substantial to us improving. Our 2008 team operating at the same level probably wouldn't win the premiership next year, as you need change and improvment in order to win again IMO. It isn't an issue of getting a like for like from our premiership team, it is about constant improvment and innovation. I'm sure the coaching staff are aware.

Burgoyne adding to our midfield is a MAJOR upgrade on Crawford (as Crawf had major knee issues in 2008). A fully fit Crawf was a loss in 2008, the missing puzzle to having every component of a complete midfield. It is now complete with Junior Burger.

 

[kolchak]

Thank you. But what should be obvious to all who pretend to follow football, or any sport or organisation, is that the only thing that is constant is change itself. Without change we are the 2008 GF shark Clarko referred to in his pre match address. Stand still and you die.

HFC, circa the early to mid/late 1990's where they were not prepared to make the call on established, overpaid players and others in the club from the Board down, who did not have the time left in their legs or were simply not good enough to take the club forward.

Don't resist change, it is the engine room of future success.

Some areas of our team have changed for the worse though. Our defence now is only working class. in 2008 we had an excellent CHB/FB in Croad and Hodge playing back who was tremendous all year and had a blinder in the GF (which is why our defence played brilliantly that day without Croad). Our ruck division would now be considered below average. Losing key players in those departments is a big set back. Our 2008 side is currently better than our team now. I agree 100% with the OP that we have gone through a mini rebuild which has been forced on us.

 

[kolchak]

My observation is, if we had lost the 2008 GF to Geelong, we would have had the same losses and the same retirements, so it shows the value of grabbing every opportunity

Definately, by hook or by crook.

 

[DannyJ]

Some areas of our team have changed for the worse though. Our defence now is only working class. in 2008 we had an excellent CHB/FB in Croad and Hodge playing back who was tremendous all year and had a blinder in the GF (which is why our defence played brilliantly that day without Croad). Our ruck division would now be considered below average. Losing key players in those departments is a big set back. Our 2008 side is currently better than our team now. I agree 100% with the OP that we have gone through a mini rebuild which has been forced on us.

You are going on the assumption no one will improve. Remember in 2008 we had a young list, advancing it two years means a good majority of these young players will improve.

Our defence has been bolstered by the inclusion of Gibson and now, not a raw Schoenmakers for 2010. Hodge can still play there if we require him.

Our rucks have Renouf who will be alot better than what he was in 2008 and Taylor might surprise a few and be servicable next year. Remember in 2008 our rucks weren't the reason we were a good team. They only competed.

Adding Burgoyne makes us have a very VERY good midfield.

 

[wahawk]

A point to keep in mind is that the HFC have done something no other side has done and that is to load up the list with cherry picked kids. There was an early recognition that drafting over the next few years will be severly impacted by GC17 and the second Sydney sides.

The HFC were both brave and clear headed to see the opportunity to load up ahead of the drought. That then leaves us the capacity to inject older, more experienced players to the list on a needs basis depending on how the " kids" develop.

A case in point is Sheils. This kid can play. He is tough. He has great running capacity as seen by his games in 2009 and what he has done in the pre season to date. Is he the new gut busting runner that Crawford was.

Clarkson has been keen for a long time to have a mid sized utility player who can go forward, back and ruck. Whamo, here is Skipper. Is Skippper the replacement for Bobby Campbell who also went forward, back and rucked and was not overly tall ??

Clarkson has said for years the HFC can't win a flag with Mark Williams as the focal point in the forward line. He became the third, fourth forward. He has gone but in comes Hooper. There are also a few players already on the list that are being earmarked for a medium sized forward role, to wit Morton, Peterson, Osborne and so on. The other thing Williams provided was the ability to go to a wing (see the second half to the 2008 GF) and provide run. Nothing has been lost in that department with Williams going. We have Jnr Burger, Morton, the new boy K-T, Young back (?), Savage and a few others who can kick a footy really well.

Croad is gone !!! So in comes Gibbo. The Schoe looks like he is going to be huge. Murphy has built up.

It's all in the forward planning and if people look at what has gone and what has come in, it will be seen there is a plan in place and it is being implemented to manage the list for now and for the future.

So I still don't see the point the original poster was making when he started this thread. Sorry young Henry, I know ambulance chasing can deflect ones concentration but all this seems pretty bloody obvious to me, even when on the run the moment I hear a siren in the distance, hehe

You are a bit grumpy today , aren't you mate.

Remember , it is the off season and we need something to talk about.

The OP is probably a bit bored (as most of us are) without football and is just throwing in some 'stocking filler'. It is 'stocking filler' season

 

[SA HAWK]

Our rucks have Renouf who will be alot better than what he was in 2008 and Taylor might surprise a few and be servicable next year. Remember in 2008 our rucks weren't the reason we were a good team. They only competed.

I thought Renouf took a big step back this year. I am not at all convinced he will make it long term.

Taylor will never be any better than average.

I hate to say it but we have the worst ruck division in the league by a fair way.

 

[DannyJ]

I thought Renouf took a big step back this year. I am not at all convinced he will make it long term.

Taylor will never be any better than average.

I hate to say it but we have the worst ruck division in the league by a fair way.

I think our ruck division is ordinary, but I don't think you need a good one to be a very good team.

I think Renouf has more improvement.

And yes, as you said, Taylor at best could be serviceable- but that is good enough.

 

[Number 24]

Some areas of our team have changed for the worse though. Our defence now is only working class. in 2008 we had an excellent CHB/FB in Croad and Hodge playing back who was tremendous all year and had a blinder in the GF (which is why our defence played brilliantly that day without Croad). Our ruck division would now be considered below average. Losing key players in those departments is a big set back. Our 2008 side is currently better than our team now. I agree 100% with the OP that we have gone through a mini rebuild which has been forced on us.

I thought Renouf took a big step back this year. I am not at all convinced he will make it long term.

Taylor will never be any better than average.

I hate to say it but we have the worst ruck division in the league by a fair way.

Well I have no option but to conceed defeat and say these wise, educated, experienced, and learned posters know more than me. But as young Henry would say, knowing more than a mere ambulance chaser is not a difficult ask.

But what really scares the absloute crap out of me is that they are mere BigFooty posters and not on the coaching staff at the HFC. Clearly Clarkson, Pelchen and the other idiot coaches employed by the club have made a disgusting mess of recruitment and developing and training those selected to be part of the playing list at the HFC.

They have allowed our defence to become crap and do bugger all about it, so it seems. And to allow us to have the worst ruck division in the comp is...well, is...it is a f**in criminal offence.

When I am next speaking to the coaches on 4 Jan 2010 I will enlighten them to their inadequacies, according to the oh so wise posters cited above and demand to know why these sage judges of footballers are allowed to remain in cyber space and not on the park taking an active part in developing the mere working class backline and getting together a ruck division that is better than the worst in the AFL.

These revelations at this time in the preseason, with about 3 months to go before the season starts has made my christmas. We will get these two involved in the club and they will have time to save the slide into total s**t and maybe, just maybe mind you, 2010 might be saved. Let us all pray.

Now if the posters would send me a PM with their personal details I will pass the info onto the club on 4/1/10. No need for a CV or references, your insights and obvious talent and experience just leap off the page. Thanks again

 

[Brant]

I don't use the word re-build - more so I think that we have evolved. Some of the changes we made by choice and others were thrust upon us. A change thrust upon you is rarely at your point of choosing (hence the term thrust upon) but I believe that we have drafted well to cover the perceived gaps - at least for 2010 and beyond (2009 hurt but that really couldn't have been forseen).

Like others have mentioned, I do not subscribe to the 'weak backline' tag and actually see our backline as very capable - assuming we can keep them on the park. To me the backline isn't only about stopping goals - in fact it is almost as much about rebounding and as far as that is concerned we will be fairly close to the mark in 2010 and even closer in 2011.

No doubt that winning in 2008 cost us a lot, however, without the clear out and induction of young blood we would not be perched in the position in which we find ourselves - one where we really have a chance of creating magic well into the next decade.

 

[kolchak]

Although I find your posts amusing #24, I can guarantee Clarko doesn't think it will be as easy without the players we had in 2008. The set backs we have had, have been forced, and there is nothing really the recruiting or coaching staff can do about it except develop new players to fill those roles. It's not going to happen over 1 or 2 seasons though.

 

[Rioli magic]

People are overrating Williams in here. On his day he was brilliant no doubt, however most games he was lazy, lacked intensity and had no influence on the result. I have no doubt Clarko is not fussed on losing Williams for these very reasons.

I think Morton may surprise a few this year. Looks in ripping shape and is training the house down. Im not sold on his performance's so far so hopefully he can step it up to put even more pressure on spots in the team.

 

[DannyJ]

People are overrating Williams in here. On his day he was brilliant no doubt, however most games he was lazy, lacked intensity and had no influence on the result. I have no doubt Clarko is not fussed on losing Williams for these very reasons.

I think Morton may surprise a few this year. Looks in ripping shape and is training the house down. Im not sold on his performance's so far so hopefully he can step it up to put even more pressure on spots in the team.

I have no doubt he has the talent. He trains hard in a fitness sense.

He does need to go when its hkis turn. I have seen him not go when its his turn, and I tell you what, this will be his last year if this continues. Clarkson is not a fan of that.

However he can be an important player if he makes it, can kick goals and provide running options from HBF to HFF. Great motor. Great long kick.

 

[eldorado]

no way.
we won a flag before we meant to and then lost all the players who would have stayed around to help us win the flag in the plan. Instead we won the flag in geelong's plan and all the players have left and now we have to start all over again. If we win another flag, maybe hodge and mitchell will leave too and then we are stuffed.

How can you say recruiting burgoyne and Gibson was in PElchen's plan when Gibson wasn't even playing football in the afl when pelchen made his plans for the premiership team?

Who is this nimrod?

 

[mess]

no way.
we won a flag before we meant to and then lost all the players who would have stayed around to help us win the flag in the plan. Instead we won the flag in geelong's plan and all the players have left and now we have to start all over again. If we win another flag, maybe hodge and mitchell will leave too and then we are stuffed.

How can you say recruiting burgoyne and Gibson was in PElchen's plan when Gibson wasn't even playing football in the afl when pelchen made his plans for the premiership team?

You're on your own there, S.

 

[Prem87]

You guys should have gone hard after Mumford or Seaby.

 

[H2F]

A point to keep in mind is that the HFC have done something no other side has done and that is to load up the list with cherry picked kids. There was an early recognition that drafting over the next few years will be severly impacted by GC17 and the second Sydney sides.

The HFC were both brave and clear headed to see the opportunity to load up ahead of the drought. That then leaves us the capacity to inject older, more experienced players to the list on a needs basis depending on how the " kids" develop.

A case in point is Sheils. This kid can play. He is tough. He has great running capacity as seen by his games in 2009 and what he has done in the pre season to date. Is he the new gut busting runner that Crawford was.

Clarkson has been keen for a long time to have a mid sized utility player who can go forward, back and ruck. Whamo, here is Skipper. Is Skippper the replacement for Bobby Campbell who also went forward, back and rucked and was not overly tall ??

Clarkson has said for years the HFC can't win a flag with Mark Williams as the focal point in the forward line. He became the third, fourth forward. He has gone but in comes Hooper. There are also a few players already on the list that are being earmarked for a medium sized forward role, to wit Morton, Peterson, Osborne and so on. The other thing Williams provided was the ability to go to a wing (see the second half to the 2008 GF) and provide run. Nothing has been lost in that department with Williams going. We have Jnr Burger, Morton, the new boy K-T, Young back (?), Savage and a few others who can kick a footy really well.

Croad is gone !!! So in comes Gibbo. The Schoe looks like he is going to be huge. Murphy has built up.

It's all in the forward planning and if people look at what has gone and what has come in, it will be seen there is a plan in place and it is being implemented to manage the list for now and for the future.

So I still don't see the point the original poster was making when he started this thread. Sorry young Henry, I know ambulance chasing can deflect ones concentration but all this seems pretty bloody obvious to me, even when on the run the moment I hear a siren in the distance, hehe

Awesome post !!!

Quoted for truth.

 

[H2F]

People are overrating Williams in here. On his day he was brilliant no doubt, however most games he was lazy, lacked intensity and had no influence on the result. I have no doubt Clarko is not fussed on losing Williams for these very reasons.

I think Morton may surprise a few this year. Looks in ripping shape and is training the house down. Im not sold on his performance's so far so hopefully he can step it up to put even more pressure on spots in the team.

What a load of absolute shit.

The most valuable and rare of players are guys who take things personally when it matters. Players who lift and win you the games that matter.

Williams was probably the most consistently brilliant match winner we have had in a long time.

His 2008 finals was one of the most instrumental performances from any Hawk, yet amazingly just a reflection of countless big game efforts from him.

A champion of Hawthorn who for whatever reasons was always never appreciated. Still sad about him going.

 

[DannyJ]

You guys should have gone hard after Mumford or Seaby.

Couldn't match the Sydney offers. 1 million over three years for Mumford is crazy money, a good prospect, but he left Geelong and a chance to win a premiership over the next two years, so he thought it was overs for him aswell.

Seaby also got a lucrative deal. Something we can't match due to having a pay structure for certain players.

Skipper is a bit worse than both, but on a base contract.

 

[cradle of filth]

What a load of absolute shit.

The most valuable and rare of players are guys who take things personally when it matters. Players who lift and win you the games that matter.

Williams was probably the most consistently brilliant match winner we have had in a long time.

His 2008 finals was one of the most instrumental performances from any Hawk, yet amazingly just a reflection of countless big game efforts from him.

A champion of Hawthorn who for whatever reasons was always never appreciated. Still sad about him going.

Could not agree more H2F. Every year i am constantly amazed at the amount of people who were opting to offloading Williams. Well they finally got their wish but i think it's more than fair to say that he really was one of our best and most important players. It's going to really hurt not having him in our forward line. We can only hope that Rhan Hooper and Beau Dowler have their best years to date in 2010.

 

[Great 2008]

You are a bit grumpy today , aren't you mate.

Remember , it is the off season and we need something to talk about.

The OP is probably a bit bored (as most of us are) without football and is just throwing in some 'stocking filler'. It is 'stocking filler' season

Spot on wahawk. No one can deny we have had a few changes forced upon us that no amount of brilliant pre planning could have accounted for. Just a bit of stocking filler (true was a bit bored as well)

 

[Gunbarrel Jack]

People are overrating Williams in here. On his day he was brilliant no doubt, however most games he was lazy, lacked intensity and had no influence on the result. I have no doubt Clarko is not fussed on losing Williams for these very reasons.

I think Morton may surprise a few this year. Looks in ripping shape and is training the house down. Im not sold on his performance's so far so hopefully he can step it up to put even more pressure on spots in the team.

cant agree with that RM. williams was a very good player who gave his all for our club. kicked a lot of goals and won our goalkicking a couple of times too. bit harsh on him, i feel.

your right on one thing - he was brilliant in his big games (i will never forget the 2 on 3 effort he made with dew in the GF that effectively killed off geelong) - but he had more good games than bad with us. a bloody good player that will be missed.

i too, like H2F, am sad to see williams go, as I am with anyone who plays for our club. would have liked to see him play in another hawks premiership, he wont get a premiership chance at the scum, but now hooper has the challenge of filling williams shoes.