Hird v Buckley v Voss

[Panthera]

yeah, nah.
i agree that reputations are enhanced in finals, absolutely. but a premiership doesn't alter their reputation in my mind at all. buckley was an absolute star in the '02 grand final. because his team fell a few points short makes no difference to his standing. same as judd in '05. are you trying to tell me that despite them playing out of their skins, they should be rated less highly because the team they were playing for didn't play as well as them and lost?
rubbish mate! rubbish!

It's well known that the Norm Smith was voted upon 10 mins into the final quarter and that for the remainder of the game Buckley barely touched the ball whereas Voss held the seams of his team together leading them to premiership glory

Buckley can keep his Norm Smith, Voss got the one that really counted overall

 

[THE BLACK PEN]

Why would anyone in thier right mind have a deadline with this poll.? It should have gone on, and not be dated out!

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Kong]

It's well known that the Norm Smith was voted upon 10 mins into the final quarter and that for the remainder of the game Buckley barely touched the ball whereas Voss held the seams of his team together leading them to premiership glory

Buckley can keep his Norm Smith, Voss got the one that really counted overall

you're not listening. Voss got his premiership, obviously. I'm not even close to trying to suggest that individual awards mean more. Buckley, or anybody, obviously would rather a premiership. But the fact that in '02 he played an oustanding game (even if he did supposedly fade away for the last 10 or so minutes) has no less baring on his reputation simply for the fact that his team lost the match by a few points. Same as Judd in '05. Arguably (and in my view, definitely) the best on ground, but his team lost by less than a kick, so what, his reputation was less than had they won? No, not at all.
Premierships are a team accomplishment; Judd and Buckley did everything within themselves to achieve one, but their teammates couldn't do enough to get the win on the day. That, in anyone's right mind, should NOT take away from how highly they rate/rated them.

 

[Claude Balls]

It's well known that the Norm Smith was voted upon 10 mins into the final quarter and that for the remainder of the game Buckley barely touched the ball whereas Voss held the seams of his team together leading them to premiership glory

Buckley can keep his Norm Smith, Voss got the one that really counted overall

Deliberately or not, you are missing the point.

 

[bomberstomake8]

Actually sometimes it's an extremely vaild point:

A players rating MUST go up if he was a major cog in his teams premiership; ala Hird and Voss

Finals are where reputations are made Whomb

i disagree, i would disregard that. we are talking about which INDIVIDUAL is better.

a premiership is a group acheivement, it doesnt necessarily reflect who was the better individual. if voss at his peak was with melbourne now he wouldnt be able to get them to win a premiership

one player doesnt win a premiership a team does therefore i would disregard that element and judge them on the way they played

 

[Panthera]

i disagree, i would disregard that. we are talking about which INDIVIDUAL is better.

a premiership is a group acheivement, it doesnt necessarily reflect who was the better individual. if voss at his peak was with melbourne now he wouldnt be able to get them to win a premiership

one player doesnt win a premiership a team does therefore i would disregard that element and judge them on the way they played

You are one dumb **** - a players worth is not limited to mark, handball, kick; it also includes leading by example, lifting those around you, fighting spirit, reckless abandon for their own safety etc etc........meaning Voss getting his team to 3 premierships heavilly outweighs Buckley in an otherwise close race.

Funilly enough, my esitmations of the 3 players don't change if we're going simply on footballing talent:

Hird=Voss>>Buckley - hmmmmmmm

 

[BEEG]

You are one dumb **** - a players worth is not limited to mark, handball, kick; it also includes leading by example, lifting those around you, fighting spirit, reckless abandon for their own safety etc etc........meaning Voss getting his team to 3 premierships heavilly outweighs Buckley in an otherwise close race.

Funilly enough, my esitmations of the 3 players don't change if we're going simply on footballing talent:

Hird=Voss>>Buckley - hmmmmmmm

Hird/Buckley>Voss

3 Great players but i think those 3 Premierships next to voss makes him seem to be the better player it was always Bucks v Hird until Voss got those premierships then all of a sudden he moved up in every ones books

Both Bucks and Hird had the longer and better individual careers were both always top players every year from when they started

Would love to see what every one would think of Bucks if he had won a premiership and if Voss hadnt won one but will never happen because Voss got his Bucks didnt

 

[Athomas]

Hird/Buckley>Voss

3 Great players but i think those 3 Premierships next to voss makes him seem to be the better player it was always Bucks v Hird until Voss got those premierships then all of a sudden he moved up in every ones books

Both Bucks and Hird had the longer and better individual careers were both always top players every year from when they started

Would love to see what every one would think of Bucks if he had won a premiership and if Voss hadnt won one but will never happen because Voss got his Bucks didnt

Random but I just realised Voss is now an AFL Coach. Hasn't sunk in at all!

 

[Godfrey Jones]

^lol i know what you mean...
the other day i just realised rhyce shaw is no longer a pie... forgot all about it

then a few hours later it hit me that corrie is now a pie as well haha

 

[Panthera]

Hird/Buckley>Voss

3 Great players but i think those 3 Premierships next to voss makes him seem to be the better player it was always Bucks v Hird until Voss got those premierships then all of a sudden he moved up in every ones books - I think it may have been Hird v Voss for most of theior careers after they won the 96 Brownlow together

Both Bucks and Hird had the longer and better individual careers were both always top players every year from when they started

Would love to see what every one would think of Bucks if he had won a premiership and if Voss hadnt won one but will never happen because Voss got his Bucks didnt

Thanks for that Capt. Obvious


The poll results suggests that Buckley is 3rd best; much like his career against the other 2.......maybe you can wish for that to happen too

 

[Claude Balls]

You are one dumb **** - a players worth is not limited to mark, handball, kick; it also includes leading by example, lifting those around you, fighting spirit, reckless abandon for their own safety etc etc........meaning Voss getting his team to 3 premierships heavilly outweighs Buckley in an otherwise close race.

Funilly enough, my esitmations of the 3 players don't change if we're going simply on footballing talent:

Hird=Voss>>Buckley - hmmmmmmm

There's no need to be calling people dumb ****s mate, particularly when they simply disagreed with you. Make's you look childish, and fairly dumb yourself.

No one here is underestimating Voss' contribution to 3 Brisbane flags - his leadership, vital passages of play in the close 2002 GF etc... we are all well aware of that.

And no one is suggesting a players worth is resitricted to 'mark, handball, kick'. Obviously, intangibles like leadership are extremely valuable.

The point being made, that you seem to miss continually, is that there is a line to draw when evaluating the worth of an individual player, between his inherent quality, and the circumstance of his team.

 

[carnthedons]

I may be slightly biased but I'd say Jimmy was the best of the 3. I still don't think Bucks deserved his Norm Smith or Brownlow, rather that the media got him through. I actually would rate them Hird, Voss, Ricciuto, Buckley. Voss & Ricciuto were genuinely more inspirational and damaging than Buckley IMO, I'm not saying that Buckley was not a very gifted footballer, he's just not on the same level as the other 3.

 

[Panthera]

I may be slightly biased but I'd say Jimmy was the best of the 3. I still don't think Bucks deserved his Norm Smith or Brownlow, rather that the media got him through. I actually would rate them Hird, Voss, Ricciuto, Buckley. Voss & Ricciuto were genuinely more inspirational and damaging than Buckley IMO, I'm not saying that Buckley was not a very gifted footballer, he's just not on the same level as the other 3.

Well put - Buckley wasn't as damaging player in a whole match as Voss and especially Hird could be in a 10 minute burst of skill and power

Totally agree with all points

The poll results reflect these thoughts even though all Collingwood supporters try and get Buckley into the same category as Voss & Hird

Sorry Bucks, just like the premiership club - NO ENTRY

 

[blues_gibbzy]

what about Kouta(kouta at his peak would fly through any of these fellas) no disrespect though

 

[Kong]

what about Kouta(kouta at his peak would fly through any of these fellas) no disrespect though

not saying that i necessarily agree, but i don't think he's worthy of comparison considering his absolute peak lasted a season, maybe less. he was awesome for about two seasons, pretty good for a lot of the remainder.

 

[james_omahoney]

not saying that i necessarily agree, but i don't think he's worthy of comparison considering his absolute peak lasted a season, maybe less. he was awesome for about two seasons, pretty good for a lot of the remainder.

Yep. Kouta was definitely a victim of the Mike Tyson Effect. IMO reached the highest level of individual brilliance by a midfielder ever, but just couldn't sustain it (due to injury). Just as Tyson isn't in the league of Ali (but for a couple of years was the most unstoppable force in boxing's history), Kouta falls short of Hird etc for the same reasons.

 

[Panthera]

Kouta is the only player I've seen absolutely smash Voss over a whole game; Rd 8 or so @ Pricess Park in 2001 just before our run to the premiership.

The football Kouta played that day was amazing

 

[STC]

Kouta could have been up there definitely, who could forget that patch of absolute brilliance before he got injured? Definitely a shame that he couldn't get back up to his best.

 

[cocobonobo]

yeh but you cant simply look at whether they have a flag next to their name and make a judgemente

you say finals is where reputations are made, are you implying buckley had a bad finals game/ series?? he won the norm smith for jett's sake...

in fact buckley rarely had a bad game, he is definately the most consistent of the 3. also in my opinion buckley had no weakness to his game.

and thats why your a collingwood supporter

 

[BABYBOMBERS2007]

I hate these same old threads. Hird, is better than Voss who are both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than Buckley.

 

[paul23]

prob hird then voss but buckley was awsome too. mark ricciuto should be in the thread he was in the same class, maybe even ahead of buckley and voss