Hird's Legal Team : "Demetriou Conflicted" - The Age 12/8

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USADA's CEO telling us in no uncertain terms the cover up is in progress and leaves absolutely no doubt about NRL and AFL players breaking the code.


USADA dealt with it directly and the UCI and USA cycling were ignored because they didn't trust them. That's why they called in Jeff Novitzky. ASADA don't have an investigator like Jeff Novitzky. He started with the IRS looking into BALCO tax issues, then moved to the Food and Drug Administration and looked at BALCO's drug manufacturing and selling of stuff to the Marion Jones group of athletes, the baseballers and then ended up working with USADA and their cycling investigation. Taylor Hamilton in chpt 14 of his book The Secret Race called him the bulldozer as he reckons he drove a bulldozer thru US cycling. Also there was a United States federal law enforcement investigation involving Armstrong. A grand Jury was empanelled in Los Angeles under Doug Miller who had worked with Novitzky on the BALCO case.

The USADA case is somewhat different to AFL and NRL situation because they were investigating a conspiracy and the fact $30mil of government monies was involved via the US Postal Service sponsorship of the team.

However USADA had to make its recommendations to the UCI and they had to accept them before they officially stripped Armstrong of his 7 TDF titles. But they didn't work with the UCI and USA Cycling like ASADA and AFL are working together. They had years of obstruction from those 2 sporting bodies

Here is USADA Cycling reasoned decision and all the appendices and links
http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

USADA wrote to the UCI on 24th August telling them they had given Arnstrong a lifetime ban and had disqualified all his results from August 1st 1998. Because of Armstrong's perjury and fradulent concealment the statue of limitations was removed.

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/2012-08-24 USADA to WADA and UCI re. sanctions Armstrong.pdf

Technically the UCI still had to make the disqualifications. They could have taken USADA's penalties to The Court for Arbitration in Sport and appealed them. But on 22nd October they accepted all of USADA's recommendations of a lifetime ban to Armstrong + his team director Johan Bruyneel + 3 doctors + the team trainer.

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails2011.asp?id=ODgzNA&MenuId=MTYzMDQ

22.10.2012
The UCI has completed its review of USADA’s ‘Reasoned Decision’ and appendices in the case against Lance Armstrong.
The UCI considered the main issues of jurisdiction, the statute of limitation the evidence gathered by USADA and the sanction imposed upon Mr. Armstrong.

The UCI confirms that it will not appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and that it will recognise the sanction that USADA has imposed.

The USADA decision explains how riders on the USPS Team showed no inclination to share the full extent of what they knew until they were subpoenaed or called by federal investigators and that their only reason for telling the truth is because the law required them to do so.

These riders have confronted their past and told their stories. Their accounts of their past provide a shocking insight into the USPS Team where the expression to ‘win at all costs’ was redefined in terms of deceit, intimidation, coercion and evasion.
Their testimony confirms that the anti-doping infrastructure that existed at that time was, by itself, insufficient and inadequate to detect the practices taking place within the team. The UCI has always been the first international sporting federation to embrace new developments in the fight against doping and it regrets that the anti-doping infrastructure that exists today was not available at that time so as to render such evasion impossible.

Many of the USPS Team riders have already acknowledged that the culture of cycling has now changed and that young riders today are no longer confronted with the same choices to use performance enhancing drugs. They are right to do so................

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails2011.asp?id=ODgzNA&MenuId=MTYzMDQ
 
I'd agree that Demetriou has a vested interest, but surely it's in Essendon's favour rather than against it? Whatever is good for Essendon would be good for the AFL in this instance, I'd have thought.

The fact that this has been leaked makes me think it's really just another PR move. There seems to be a concerted effort to establish a Fortress Essendon, and try and shift the blame to outside parties.

It's become so hard to give the Bombers the benefit of the doubt about this stuff.
Correct weight but just on top of that I have a feeling Essendon will try to discredit Vlad by pointing out he knew about the whole situation back in 2012 when he expressed concerns about the rising influence of sports scientists in the game.
 
The AFL is a mates, mates, mates, industry. it is conflicted left right and centre.Its the nature of most sporting orgaisations. That's why so many of them are accused of corruption!

Is Hird's lawyer going to insist that Bill Kelty not be involved in any decision made by the AFL commission because of is material conflict of interest??
 

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RussellEbertHandball I assume ASADA doesn't have similar powers to USADA due to the AFL being a relatively new signatory to the code and are relying on the AFL's cooperation for these reasons?

Edit: Kelty has removed himself from having a say in this matter.
 
Something is wrong about all this.

Surely it's Hird who looks like conflicted?
Hird attacking AD because he tried to protect essendon.?

Are EFC fan braindead or wtf is going on here?
 
Did Hird call for Kelty or the female judge to also be removed?

Perhaps Ziggy can take ADs spot in the AFL? Just for the Hird sentencing bit


I get Kelty's conflict but what is Justice Linda Dessau's conflict??

I reckon a justice of the family court is probably the right sort of person to look at this. Family matters that make it the court usually involve 1 party being belligerent, vindictive and irrational. Some times its both parties. Sound like she might have the right prerequisite skills to assess this matter.
 
RussellEbertHandball I assume ASADA doesn't have similar powers to USADA due to the AFL being a relatively new signatory to the code and are relying on the AFL's cooperation for these reasons?

Edit: Kelty has removed himself from having a say in this matter.


Nah they have the power but they don't have the need or desire or will, to go after the AFL like USADA did with cycling because cycling had years of being corrupt. WADA was set up after the FESTINA affair at the TDF in 1998. Most of the major "ADA's" around the world were set up around 2000 -2003 period.

WADA was set up in November 1999 and the first Code was implemented from 1 January 2003. In Australia the Australian Sports Drug Agency was in charge of anti-doping until ASADA was set up in March 2006. The big change between ASDA and ASADA was the extra investigation powers that ASADA got. The tribunals and process was similar but it became more consistent with WADA procedures as the procedures and Code changed.

Gotta remember in the USA, you had BALCO, the baseballers, the Marion Jones group that were attached to BALCo and cycling and the US Postal Service federal government monies, issues all happening at once back starting in 2003 and taking years to investigate and go thru the courts, that saw USADA move a greater emphasis into the investigation phase of their activities.
 
As has been said, of course he's conflicted, the AFL is one of the most utterly rotten organisations in existence. But to raise it in this context is just lunatic. Does anyone seriously think (a) the AFL establishment will tolerate an individual challenging Demetriou and by extension the commission, and (b) they can't control who is or isn't involved in the game?

I read the article, and I feel absolutely certain that whatever else happens with this saga, there is more prospect of me coaching Essendon next year than Hird.

dr-seltsam.m.jpg
 
I get Kelty's conflict but what is Justice Linda Dessau's conflict??

I reckon a justice of the family court is probably the right sort of person to look at this. Family matters that make it the court usually involve 1 party being belligerent, vindictive and irrational. Some times its both parties. Sound like she might have the right prerequisite skills to assess this matter.

Isn't she the head of some women organisation for the efc?
 
I think I can see Hird's point. According to the WADA code, it is clearly the players responsibility to clear whatever goes in. In that context, it'd probably be appropriate for the coach to make sure the players have access to all the latest performance enhancing drugs, especially those which may or may not be legal. That way the player can decide whether or not to take them, and then bear the responsibility...

Isn't that how the code is written?

And if Hird gave an indication that he preferred that these drugs were taken, or, in the parlance of our times, that he "wanted" the players to take these drugs, is he really at fault?
 
And if Hird gave an indication that he preferred that these drugs were taken, or, in the parlance of our times, that he "wanted" the players to take these drugs, is he really at fault?


Who selects the team? Who selected who was on the USPS cycling team?

The players have to take their share of their responsibilities but so do the officials. That's how the WADA code works. Armstrong + 3 doctors + team director + team trainer were given the life time bans. The 11 riders who took the EPO + other stuff + blood transfusions got 6 months because they co-operated with USADA. Most of them had retired so didn't really affect them, unless they were like Matt White who had retired but had a job in one of the pro cycling teams. White wasn't one of the 11 riders because he wasn't an American but because he was on the USPS team, evidence came out that he used EPO and blood transfusions. He resigned as director of Orica Greenedge before he was sacked last October.
 

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I'd agree that Demetriou has a vested interest, but surely it's in Essendon's favour rather than against it?

Yep. Vlad gave them the tip off, but it was already too late. And now that they're going under they're turning on the one guy who tried to help them in an attempt to save their own skin. Ultimate desperate dick move.

Vlad would be fuming, but he should have known better. I'm sure there's an old saying that a drowning man will drag you under to try and save himself.
 
It doesn't matter if Demetriou is in the room when the decision is made, or not. Does anybody doubt that he will have eyes and ears in all proceedings and that his impact will be felt? It's just not his style to sit back and let others make decisions for him. He has his mitts on everything in the AFL. And unlike Hird, he can deny anything Hird levels at him simply because it's Hird's word vs his. Even David Evans isn't backing Hird up. Hird doesn't have as much on Andy D as he thinks he does. It's an empty threat. AD will not be brought down by something as insipid as this accusation. The only thing that could accomplish that would be if David Evans came out and supported Hird's version of events.
 
Demetriou conflicted?

Thats hilarious coming from James Hird who arrogantly continues to coach the very same players who he let be injected with exotic and untested substances.

Now THAT is a conflict.
 
RussellEbertHandball I assume ASADA doesn't have similar powers to USADA due to the AFL being a relatively new signatory to the code and are relying on the AFL's cooperation for these reasons?

Edit: Kelty has removed himself from having a say in this matter.


Also the cyclists talked to USADA because at the same time as they were investigating by a grand Jury which was empanelled in Los Angeles under federal prosecutor Doug Miller who had worked with Novitzky on the BALCO case. Novitzky was working with Miller on the Armstrong evidence on the grand jury proceedings.

After Landis lost his last doping appeal he decided to spill his guts. First to USA Cycling in mid 2010 with dates, names and specific details and went public with the emails. A few days after this hit the world press the grand jury was empaneled. Witnesses were subpoenaed to testify and they were under oath and threat of perjury. Marion Jones went to jail for perjury not for taking PEDs.

Landis also spoke to USADA. All 11 of Armstrong's team mates at USPS were subpoenaed and gave evidence to the grand jury. Tyler Hamilton in his book talks about how he gave evidence at the grand jury. He gave 4 hours of detailed testimony. His time ran out and the jury was dismissed for the day. He wanted to give more evidence so he gave another 3 hours testimony in a conference room. in his book he says "...and then I walked out the door. I was utterly exhausted, empty. But it felt good."

Hamilton later talked to USADA and repeated what he said in the grand jury. It appears all the others basically did the same thing, tell the truth in the grand jury then later tell USADA their full story.

In the 200 page Reasoned Decision report on page 3 it says


None of the evidence USADA summarizes in this Reasoned Decision was obtained from the United States federal law enforcement investigation involving Mr. Armstrong. After the announcement by U.S. District Attorney Andre Birotte on February 3, 2012, that he was discontinuing the criminal investigation of Armstrong’s conduct, USADA formally requested copies of non-grand jury evidence from the case.2 However, no documents have been received to date. As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement.3

So USADA succeeded in an investigation that started in 2008 not related to Armstrong


III. BACKGROUND
A. Commencement of USADA’s Broad Investigation of Doping in Cycling In November 2008 USADA proceeded to a hearing in a non-analytical case involving U.S. cyclist Kayle Leogrande. Mr. Leogrande received a two year period of ineligibility for the use of erythropoietin (EPO). Subsequently, in January of 2009, USADA received information from a variety of sources with information about individuals who may have supplied Mr. Leogrande and other cyclists with performance enhancing drugs. Thereafter, USADA commenced an investigation into drug use and distribution within the Southern California cycling scene and began making inquiries and following up on various leads related to this issue.

USADA came to understand that Floyd Landis might have information useful to this effort. However, before USADA communicated with Mr. Landis on this topic, Paul Scott, an individual residing in Southern California, provided information to USADA Science Director Dr. Daniel Eichner confirming that Mr. Landis had information relevant to USADA’s investigation of doping in the Southern California cycling community and also providing information about the involvement of Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Landis in doping on the U.S. Postal Service Team.

In April/May 2010 Floyd Landis spilt the beans

And then a grand jury was empaneled to investigate Armstrong because of Landis' evidence. The subpoenaing of team mates with the threat of perjury was the real reason why USADA was able to mount its case. Once the 11 riders and others told the truth at the grand jury, that freeded them up to tell the truth to USADA.

USADA don't have any special powers greater than ASADA. If Marion Jones hadn't gone to jail for perjury in 2008 ( admitted perjury late 2007) the cyclists might not have told the truth to the grand jury and later to USADA.
 
I find this incredible. Vlad has been just about Essendon's biggest ally in this whole saga. Why do they ythink ASADA want them removed from the decision making process? Obviously because Vlad has been batting for Essendon all along.

Does James not even consider himself part of Essendon now?
 
Desperate times call for desperate measure. Through a whole lot of mud in various directions at various people and hope that some of it sticks. The more Hird and his legal team try and do these sort of stunts the more he looks guilty. If his confidence had something behind it, to back his claims of innocence then he would care less who is sitting in judgement.

Anyway, its your money Hird, waste it anyway you want, but any chance of working in football after this is getting smaller and smaller by the stunt.
 
The conflict was there when Evans was club president and I'm sure Essendon benefited from the Evan/Vlad friendship numerous times..

Only when it doesn't suit Hird it becomes a problem. This type of BS was always on the cards with all these lawyers involved.. They aren't paid a crap load of $$ to have their clients accept penalties.

Take your medicine Hird and allow your club to move on...
 
"If the facts are on your side pound the facts. If the law is on your side, pound the law. If neither is on your side pound the table."

EFC have gone past trying to formulate defences and full speed ahead with strategies. If you can't defend your actions, attack the process, attack the key participants. Make a lot of noise.
 
The conflict was there when Evans was club president and I'm sure Essendon benefited from the Evan/Vlad friendship numerous times..

Only when it doesn't suit Hird it becomes a problem. This type of BS was always on the cards with all these lawyers involved.. They aren't paid a crap load of $$ to have their clients accept penalties.

Take your medicine Hird and allow your club to move on...


At this point Essendon would be better off accepting a penalty for this year because they are clearly shot.
 
I don't understand why Essendon supporters are angry at Demetriou.
He has done everything to get Essendon off the hook.
He covered up the mess Hirdy created then he tipped Essendon off about an investigation.
Now Essendon are using this against Vlad.
Come on take responsibility Essendon supporters.
 

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Hird's Legal Team : "Demetriou Conflicted" - The Age 12/8

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