Toast How can this Melbourne side be stopped?

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There’s a theory about moving the ball quickly into your forward 50 to beat Melbourne. Yes that probably gives you an advantage. But when May plays he is often standing in D50. Also whilst moving the footy at lightning speed can work it has its dangers and turnovers are a risk. But when teams go slow it allows us to push numbers back and set up. As with last year most of the top sides will just play their way when the whips are cracking and back themselves in.
 

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La Dispute said:
Now 1-2 against the remaining sides in the Top 4, 2-4 against sides in the 8.

The Dees are flat track bullies.
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Not many teams will win in Geelong when the Cats come to play. That’s a given. Melbourne aren’t flat track bullies because they dropped a game in Geelong.


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With Melbourne's forward line being a little dysfunctional right now, and McDonald out for a couple more months, why don't they put Petracca at full forward and move Brayshaw back into the center?
I know it may rob Peter to pay Paul but he's in the zone right now. He would be capable of kicking bags of goals. Certainly be one of the most intimidating prospects for any defender having Petracca one out in the goal square.
 
catscollector said:
With Melbourne's forward line being a little dysfunctional right now, and McDonald out for a couple more months, why don't they put Petracca at full forward and move Brayshaw back into the center?
I know it may rob Peter to pay Paul but he's in the zone right now. He would be capable of kicking bags of goals. Certainly be one of the most intimidating prospects for any defender having Petracca one out in the goal square.
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Goodwin is pretty stubborn, I don’t see him moving away from what worked last year in a hurry.

If he changed it up and put Petracca forward, which he did do when Petracca had the ‘flu against Fremantle, he wouldn’t take Brayshaw out of the backline.

It would mean more midfield time for Harmes and Sparrow, or potentially Dunstan comes back into the team.

Back to the topic of how to stop Melbourne. Simply play better, like Geelong did. Plus 13 scoring shots, plus 20 inside 50s and plus 18 clearances. Melbourne still won contested possession, but Geelong had better quality contested possession.

While Melbourne’s forward line is really struggling, it’s not why they lost, and moving Petracca almost completely out of the midfield to play forward is probably going to hurt why Melbourne lost even more.

May had his worst ball in hand game
I can recall. The fumbling early from multiple players and the general butchering of the ball was the worst Melbourne have done this year. If that becomes the norm then they will be stopped several more times.

What I thought was very noticeable was Geelong got a hand in to disrupt the handpass chains multiple times for the players who do use quick hands. They were also right onto Viney and Harmes who like to try and bounce off or break tackles rather than use quick hands. They defended the right way against particular players.
 
Lampers said:
Goodwin is pretty stubborn, I don’t see him moving away from what worked last year in a hurry.

If he changed it up and put Petracca forward, which he did do when Petracca had the ‘flu against Fremantle, he wouldn’t take Brayshaw out of the backline.

It would mean more midfield time for Harmes and Sparrow, or potentially Dunstan comes back into the team.

Back to the topic of how to stop Melbourne. Simply play better, like Geelong did. Plus 13 scoring shots, plus 20 inside 50s and plus 18 clearances. Melbourne still won contested possession, but Geelong had better quality contested possession.

While Melbourne’s forward line is really struggling, it’s not why they lost, and moving Petracca almost completely out of the midfield to play forward is probably going to hurt why Melbourne lost even more.

May had his worst ball in hand game
I can recall. The fumbling early from multiple players and the general butchering of the ball was the worst Melbourne have done this year. If that becomes the norm then they will be stopped several more times.

What I thought was very noticeable was Geelong got a hand in to disrupt the handpass chains multiple times for the players who do use quick hands. They were also right onto Viney and Harmes who like to try and bounce off or break tackles rather than use quick hands. They defended the right way against particular players.
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At least Geelong beat you fairly, instead of sniping the opposition's best clearance player off the ball early in the first quarter.
 
Geelong did not win this game. Melbourne lost it. Or so we'll all be told by Danster and his mates when they get over the game later today.

Dysfunctional forward line. Has been for most of the year other than a couple of games. Goodwin and co have their work cut out for them this year to get it firing when it counts.

Note: they are still 2nd with that dysfunctional forward line. If they get it sorted, its theirs for mine.

As for the Cats, I know this isn't the thread but respect. I still can't stop thinking that they'll simply fold in a big final. Regardless, they continue to present year in, year out.
 
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nineteen eighty said:
Geelong did not win this game. Melbourne lost it. Or so we'll all be told by Danster and his mates when they get over the game later today.

Dysfunctional forward line. Has been for most of the year other than a couple of games. Goodwin and co have their work cut out for them this year to get it firing when it counts.

Note: they are still 2nd with that dysfunctional forward line. If they get it sorted, its theirs for mine.

As for the Cats, I know this isn't the thread but respect. I still can't stop thinking that they'll simply in a big final. Regardless, they continue to present year in, year out.
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Danster is a flog, don't listen to him
 
I think the ‘dysfunctional forward line’ argument is overrated but it certainly looks that way when we get flogged at the clearances and can’t get any meaningful transition going from the back half. I mean, how did Geelong’s much vaunted forward line go last night? They only really hit the scoreboard in the final term, their midfield won them the game.

May was absolutely dreadful last night, Gawn didn’t take a mark and Salem as well as umpteen others were passengers. Take nothing away from Geelong though, that was a pretty comprehensive 4 quarter rogering everywhere but the scoreboard.
 
Kate Roffey full of excuses today. "Odd shaped ground, we haven't had a settled backline, Geelong have played North twice already blah blah blah."
Not a good sign, Dees last year would've just sucked it up and reset. They look awful outside of stoppages when the game settles into a rhythm and keep bombing hail mary kicks to their out of form forwards.
 

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The strengths Melbourne has are threefold; cattle, transition and stoppages.

Melbourne are at an enviable point in that they have, arguably, champions on each line. They've May, Lever, Rivers, Salem (when he's available); Angus Brayshaw's played behind the ball a bit as well. Ben Brown, Kysaiah Pickett, Bailey Fritsch are all excellent; Brown has kicked 60+ goals in a season 3 times in his career, Pickett's extremely effective when switched on, and Fritsch is an awkward combination of smart, fast and tall. But Melbourne's greatest strength is midfield stocks; Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Langdon, Brayshaw, Jackson, Harmes. Most sides have midfield role players, but most sides don't have the luxury of playing players of the caliber of Viney, Brayshaw and Harmes as role players. Because they're strong all over the field, in order to beat them you have to be beating these players where they're strong more often than not.

Melbourne's intercept back half - Tomlinson, Lever, May, - and runners - Salem, Brayshaw, Langdon, Neale-Bullen, Harmes - combine to form the strongest side in transition in the comp, but in a different way than most sides. Most teams can and will cut you up on turnover, and Melbourne is no exception, but the strongest part of Melbourne's transition game is that they're simply going to shut yours down. Their players are faster, smarter, more selfless in defense than yours are in attack, and they're better than even chance to beat you to the back half. From there, you're running into issues with point 1 again; how do you beat all those players when they're sitting between you and the goals? This disadvantages teams that launch from back half, especially teams that rely on deep defense to get their transition game working. There are exceptions - Fremantle are a side I'd describe that way and they rolled them in Melbourne this year, but we'll get to how they did it in a mo - but by and large they're simply going to defend space better than you can. You have to go fast, preferably whilst winning the stoppages to go forward in the most direct way possible, to avoid them clogging up your back half. The other method's a little trickier; you need to be able to take contested marks in front half, around May, Gawn and Lever. Collingwood managed because Cox played one of the games where he just murders strong opposition, and May was out; if May's out there, this task becomes a good deal harder.

When Fremantle beat Melbourne in Melbourne earlier this year, they 'got' Melbourne's midfield. They beat them in the stoppages, and shocked them into playing reactive footy. Melbourne are strong in contested ball, but they can be denied the ball for periods of time within games. Problem is, they're going to come at you; Gawn and Jackson provide a ruck advantage that Darcy - one of the best young rucks in the comp - negated on the day, but you're not going to be able to negate them all the time. Oliver is nigh impossible to stop; he's a combination of stoppage strength and running power that simply is a recipe for a tagger to blow up if they're not similarly inclined. Petracca's essentially an old fashioned short CHF with the gut running and ballsense of a midfielder. You can beat them for a half - as Fremantle did; bored them to sleep in the first half, then smashed them before they woke in the second - but you won't beat them across 4 terms unless you can negate advantage 1.

They're gettable. It's possible they've not clicked into gear yet, but they're gettable.
 
Johnny Karate said:
I think the ‘dysfunctional forward line’ argument is overrated but it certainly looks that way when we get flogged at the clearances and can’t get any meaningful transition going from the back half. I mean, how did Geelong’s much vaunted forward line go last night? They only really hit the scoreboard in the final term, their midfield won them the game.

May was absolutely dreadful last night, Gawn didn’t take a mark and Salem as well as umpteen others were passengers. Take nothing away from Geelong though, that was a pretty comprehensive 4 quarter rogering everywhere but the scoreboard.
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The role of Luke Jackson doesn't seem that clear. Where is his best spot?
 
Gethelred said:
The strengths Melbourne has are threefold; cattle, transition and stoppages.

Melbourne are at an enviable point in that they have, arguably, champions on each line. They've May, Lever, Rivers, Salem (when he's available); Angus Brayshaw's played behind the ball a bit as well. Ben Brown, Kysaiah Pickett, Bailey Fritsch are all excellent; Brown has kicked 60+ goals in a season 3 times in his career, Pickett's extremely effective when switched on, and Fritsch is an awkward combination of smart, fast and tall. But Melbourne's greatest strength is midfield stocks; Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Langdon, Brayshaw, Jackson, Harmes. Most sides have midfield role players, but most sides don't have the luxury of playing players of the caliber of Viney, Brayshaw and Harmes as role players. Because they're strong all over the field, in order to beat them you have to be beating these players where they're strong more often than not.

Melbourne's intercept back half - Tomlinson, Lever, May, - and runners - Salem, Brayshaw, Langdon, Neale-Bullen, Harmes - combine to form the strongest side in transition in the comp, but in a different way than most sides. Most teams can and will cut you up on turnover, and Melbourne is no exception, but the strongest part of Melbourne's transition game is that they're simply going to shut yours down. Their players are faster, smarter, more selfless in defense than yours are in attack, and they're better than even chance to beat you to the back half. From there, you're running into issues with point 1 again; how do you beat all those players when they're sitting between you and the goals? This disadvantages teams that launch from back half, especially teams that rely on deep defense to get their transition game working. There are exceptions - Fremantle are a side I'd describe that way and they rolled them in Melbourne this year, but we'll get to how they did it in a mo - but by and large they're simply going to defend space better than you can. You have to go fast, preferably whilst winning the stoppages to go forward in the most direct way possible, to avoid them clogging up your back half. The other method's a little trickier; you need to be able to take contested marks in front half, around May, Gawn and Lever. Collingwood managed because Cox played one of the games where he just murders strong opposition, and May was out; if May's out there, this task becomes a good deal harder.

When Fremantle beat Melbourne in Melbourne earlier this year, they 'got' Melbourne's midfield. They beat them in the stoppages, and shocked them into playing reactive footy. Melbourne are strong in contested ball, but they can be denied the ball for periods of time within games. Problem is, they're going to come at you; Gawn and Jackson provide a ruck advantage that Darcy - one of the best young rucks in the comp - negated on the day, but you're not going to be able to negate them all the time. Oliver is nigh impossible to stop; he's a combination of stoppage strength and running power that simply is a recipe for a tagger to blow up if they're not similarly inclined. Petracca's essentially an old fashioned short CHF with the gut running and ballsense of a midfielder. You can beat them for a half - as Fremantle did; bored them to sleep in the first half, then smashed them before they woke in the second - but you won't beat them across 4 terms unless you can negate advantage 1.

They're gettable. It's possible they've not clicked into gear yet, but they're gettable.
Click to expand...

I understand the point you are making but it is diminished somewhat when you list Brown as "excellent". Yes he's absolutely key to their forward structure and if he's taking marks (goals don't necessarily matter), their forward line is easily a 4-5 better forward line.

He's far from excellent though these days.
 
Gethelred said:
The strengths Melbourne has are threefold; cattle, transition and stoppages.

Melbourne are at an enviable point in that they have, arguably, champions on each line. They've May, Lever, Rivers, Salem (when he's available); Angus Brayshaw's played behind the ball a bit as well. Ben Brown, Kysaiah Pickett, Bailey Fritsch are all excellent; Brown has kicked 60+ goals in a season 3 times in his career, Pickett's extremely effective when switched on, and Fritsch is an awkward combination of smart, fast and tall. But Melbourne's greatest strength is midfield stocks; Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Langdon, Brayshaw, Jackson, Harmes. Most sides have midfield role players, but most sides don't have the luxury of playing players of the caliber of Viney, Brayshaw and Harmes as role players. Because they're strong all over the field, in order to beat them you have to be beating these players where they're strong more often than not.

Melbourne's intercept back half - Tomlinson, Lever, May, - and runners - Salem, Brayshaw, Langdon, Neale-Bullen, Harmes - combine to form the strongest side in transition in the comp, but in a different way than most sides. Most teams can and will cut you up on turnover, and Melbourne is no exception, but the strongest part of Melbourne's transition game is that they're simply going to shut yours down. Their players are faster, smarter, more selfless in defense than yours are in attack, and they're better than even chance to beat you to the back half. From there, you're running into issues with point 1 again; how do you beat all those players when they're sitting between you and the goals? This disadvantages teams that launch from back half, especially teams that rely on deep defense to get their transition game working. There are exceptions - Fremantle are a side I'd describe that way and they rolled them in Melbourne this year, but we'll get to how they did it in a mo - but by and large they're simply going to defend space better than you can. You have to go fast, preferably whilst winning the stoppages to go forward in the most direct way possible, to avoid them clogging up your back half. The other method's a little trickier; you need to be able to take contested marks in front half, around May, Gawn and Lever. Collingwood managed because Cox played one of the games where he just murders strong opposition, and May was out; if May's out there, this task becomes a good deal harder.

When Fremantle beat Melbourne in Melbourne earlier this year, they 'got' Melbourne's midfield. They beat them in the stoppages, and shocked them into playing reactive footy. Melbourne are strong in contested ball, but they can be denied the ball for periods of time within games. Problem is, they're going to come at you; Gawn and Jackson provide a ruck advantage that Darcy - one of the best young rucks in the comp - negated on the day, but you're not going to be able to negate them all the time. Oliver is nigh impossible to stop; he's a combination of stoppage strength and running power that simply is a recipe for a tagger to blow up if they're not similarly inclined. Petracca's essentially an old fashioned short CHF with the gut running and ballsense of a midfielder. You can beat them for a half - as Fremantle did; bored them to sleep in the first half, then smashed them before they woke in the second - but you won't beat them across 4 terms unless you can negate advantage 1.

They're gettable. It's possible they've not clicked into gear yet, but they're gettable.
Click to expand...
i love how you went to all that effort only to include players who are in the 2's and players who don't play in the position you said they did
 
Gavin Excell said:
The role of Luke Jackson doesn't seem that clear. Where is his best spot?
Click to expand...
He is essentially a second ruck we can have on the ground at the same time as Gawn. His role is not dissimilar to Naitanui when Cox was still playing for the Eagles.
 
Last year they were clearly the best team and were lucky to draw a tired and comparably average opponent in the grand final, and that second half demolition has led to the perception they are some all-conquering team.

This year they’ve beaten up on a lot of average teams and have been put to the sword by quite a few top 8 teams - Geelong and Freo comfortably accounted for them.

They could easily pinch another Grand Final, but teams know they’re very beatable and can struggle to score at times due to a pretty mediocre forwardline.
 
StillAtLarge said:
Kate Roffey full of excuses today. "Odd shaped ground, we haven't had a settled backline, Geelong have played North twice already blah blah blah."
Not a good sign, Dees last year would've just sucked it up and reset. They look awful outside of stoppages when the game settles into a rhythm and keep bombing hail mary kicks to their out of form forwards.
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Where'd she do that?
 
Do the Dew said:
At least Geelong beat you fairly, instead of sniping the opposition's best clearance player off the ball early in the first quarter.
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Only reason selwood didnt is cause hes too slow to catch anyone. been a dirty player his whole career, juts never been called out for it.
 

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