How do we take the next step to a premiership?

[mattsmob]

I also hope expectations are tapered when it comes to Rayner next year, he's coming off an ACL and took Petracca a few years before coming back to develop into his best footy. I totally agree that as fans, we see those glimpses and think he can be the answer, but Pies fans have been waiting for JDG to turn into that game breaking midfielder for 2 seasons now.

I agree with that, it's going to take some time for him to fully recover and have confidence in his movement. One thing I will say about the JDG comparison is that Cam seems like a much better person and way more committed to being the best he can be.

 

[mattsmob]

That's fair, it is probably likely that ACL results in a bit of a gap year as he gets confidence back in his movement and spends more time up forward than he was prepping to this year. Do want to see a change in our midfield balance though. Clugg, Bailey, Berry and Robertson all likely to up their time spent there (Starce too, perhaps?) which I think will add a new dynamic to the mix.

Personally I see the big improvement with Clug and Berry spending big minutes in there, if Bailey can even have the same impact he did this season with more time in there as well that'd be great. I don't quite see the room for Starce in the middle this season and our biggest problem is the defence and he is so important to that area for us, don't think we can afford to move him yet.

 

[pulpdriver]

Personally I see the big improvement with Clug and Berry spending big minutes in there, if Bailey can even have the same impact he did this season with more time in there as well that'd be great. I don't quite see the room for Starce in the middle this season and our biggest problem is the defence and he is so important to that area for us, don't think we can afford to move him yet.

Agree that Clugg and Berry the most likely midfielders to provide a jump in performance. It's probably a little silly in a way to want to move Starce to the midfield after he's been performed so exceptionally in defence but I just see his skillset as being so valuable to transition to a midfield role.

He's a powerful body, which we don't really have there; he has pace, which we don't really have there; he's strong defensively so could potentially adapt well to run defensively through the midfield and use his strength and pace to provide tackling and defensive pressure, which we could use ore of there. To top it off he's strong with ground ball gets and has great hand and kicking skills.

Just seems a natural fit and I wonder if Answerth can get fit and become the small stopper again if we don't get more by pushing him around the ball. Probably likely we don't move him out of defence though. A fit Answerth coming in to take the small stopping role and us then using Starce's athleticism in a more attacking manner off halfback more likely.

The more I think about it the more excited I am about next year and I'm particularly excited about seeing what the guys in the 19 - 23 group such as Rayner, Bailey, Starce, Coleman, Robertson, Sharp, Prior and Madden can bring as they take the next step in their development.

 

[TS13]

Personally I see the big improvement with Clug and Berry spending big minutes in there, if Bailey can even have the same impact he did this season with more time in there as well that'd be great. I don't quite see the room for Starce in the middle this season and our biggest problem is the defence and he is so important to that area for us, don't think we can afford to move him yet.

Feels like the consensus is that improvement has to come internally - whether some think its Starce/Cam or someone else. Hoping for a big and consistent year from Bez, he might not have that burst of speed, but definitely has the tank and tackling ability to be a good defensive mid.

Starce going into the middle might be too much of a fan driven idea (I would love to see it), but will depend of whether Kiddy/Madden/Answerth can play a lockdown role on opponent's best small. Fages also doesn't appear to make such drastic changes?

 

[CarterS]

Robertson, Coleman and the bottom 6 of the 22.
First half of the season I think McStay has the capability to step up big time.

 

[Sanchez365]

Not sure why starce is a hail mary. Played mid as a junior. Has all the tools to address our issues: speed, size, strength. Great disposal. And has been a gun down back so his development has been excellent. Absolute no-brainer to put midfield. Plenty of options in the backline to replace him.

His role off the half back line has mainly to be a shutdown defender. I feel the normal trajectory for a half back looking to move into the midfield would be more of a distributor role then he has played to date. I'm not saying he couldn't do it and haven't seen him play as a junior. But people seem more skeptical on Rayner who has actually played as a mid at afl level.

So far Starch has shown the ability to be an excellent lock down back pocket. If he transforms from that into a key midfield cog I will be very surprised and excited.

 

[fugitive]

So far Starch has shown the ability to be an excellent lock down back pocket. If he transforms from that into a key midfield cog I will be very surprised and excited.

Even a lot of non lions supporters think he is a gun, hardly ever gets beaten, very excited about his future prospects!

 

[RoyBoy17]

I think fully fit we have the team to do it already. Scoring power is great and defence solid enough. To go that extra gear we need a bit more speed and two way running which is our biggest weakness. A lot of our play is rushed because we haven’t got great outside players that can get spare and generate a flowing game style. Everything is contested. A lot of our mids and backs are one paced. Melbourne is not the most skilled team but the majority of their players can cover the ground well with the exception of brown. We play tall too which exacerbates the issue. That’s what separates us from the best atm. Being able to go with quicker teams on the spread and transition

 

[John_Proctor]

The next 3 years always seemed to be the target years for me on our best premiership window.

the last 3 years I would say were ‘massive Surprise’ (2019), ‘surprise’ 2020, ‘consolidation’ 2021.

look at Melbourne - young list makes prelim in 2018 falls into wilderness 19/20 now in grand final 2021. Brisbane teams circa 1995-2004 young team makes finals 95-97 collapses 98, builds again 98-99 dominates 2000-2004. Hawthorn won it all in 08, missed finals ‘09, ok team ‘10/11, ‘12-‘14 win it all.


Not saying we should expect a 3-peat or even expect a premiership just this pattern of ‘exceed expectations’ consolidate/fall and then learn from those lessons and be a real contender is a thing.

We can still get 5% more from all those U-25’s next season and take the leap.

the biggest Gameplay things are.

1. more composure in key moments going forward. Both giants and dogs semi losses we have dominated inside 50’s and not had reward (dogs without mcstay and hipwood (and rayner) there to help). That giants semi we stopped their exits from D50 on our attacking forward flank and just continually bombed it into the left forward pocket all last quarter. The dogs semi was reminiscent of that.

2. Tightening up our whole field zone off defence in finals and/or when we are not in control of the game. more pace In backline to close out the zone when we are caught out of position would help as would a more defensively minded midfielder/more PCs in midfield to close down space. I also think our deepest defender is often too high and prone to get caught out (not helped by the fact that deep defender often doesn’t have pace!). Also I know Harris has been injured this season but he has had his colours lowered more than the previous 3 years combined. In big moments (like the schache goal in last quarter) he needs to be body to body with a man not 25m away in no mans land. I heard mick Malthouse say in a game mid season (abc radio) ‘Harris lacks urgency’ and it stuck with me - he is amazing don’t get me wrong but for an amazing player he is too often bypassed by the opposition having not decided to stay on his man but then also not being able to affect the player with the ball (this issue is in free play rather than in a contest he almost always halves a marking contest either 1on1 or when he decides to go 3rd man up).

3. balance our luck with injuries. 19/20 were super lucky. 2021 was very unlucky… we win that semi if any of mcstay, hipwood or Rayner play. We win it if we aren’t a rotation short with berry on the bench injured in second half and our sub already used. Not saying we need no injuries like 19/20 but the timing of injuries really hurt us in the last few weeks. Mcstay injury knocked the stuffing out of us in the qualifying final (probably would not have won it but you could see we floundered a bit after that). Hipwood injury took a few weeks to recover from. Etc.


4. I was very worried that beyond our first 25 at the start of the season our list was essentially untried. But we had to use those kids and we still made top 4. So hopefully we keep seeing more of Coleman, madden, fullarton, Robertson, prior, Payne, T Berry next season and they make the step up to push the likes of (Birchall), Robinson, Lester, Mathieson out of the team. Robbo might be a controversial one to have on that list but he is 33 mid next season and has his limitations with disposal.


(Sorry I don’t post often so when I do I tend to have a lot of thoughts tk

 

[dlanod]

It's probably a little silly in a way to want to move Starce to the midfield after he's been performed so exceptionally in defence but I just see his skillset as being so valuable to transition to a midfield role.

He's a powerful body, which we don't really have there; he has pace, which we don't really have there; he's strong defensively so could potentially adapt well to run defensively through the midfield and use his strength and pace to provide tackling and defensive pressure, which we could use ore of there. To top it off he's strong with ground ball gets and has great hand and kicking skills.

Just seems a natural fit

My concern about Starce is that he seems to lack the awareness of a true midfielder. We've seen him caught several times over the course of the season in a way Neale or McCluggage doesn't tend to be - the case that sticks in the mind is last weekend where he fended off/dodged a couple of Dogs in the middle, and then got caught from behind because it didn't seem to click that doing so is going to give opponents time to catch up to him.

 

[25 years on]

During the dogs game several times I saw the dogs taller mids tapping the ball up to keep it away from our mids, who are small in comparison so I would like to see a taller mid in there somewhere. I am not a fan of Fullerton’s ruck work but I like his general field work, I would like to see him at bounces and throw ins to mix up our opportunities

 

[25 years on]

Having a long accurate kick out of defence is good, but having two players who aren’t fast with the same talent made us too predictable, having two fast players, Colman/Madden/Ah Chee, linking up would have the same result(getting the ball fwd quickly) and make us less predictable

 

[braddsey]

I feel like we are just missing that special type of player than can just step up at the big moments and carry us on his back ala the Bont, Oliver, Dusty etc.

Cam Raynor one he’s back and has confidence in his body.

 

[25 years on]

Cam Raynor one he’s back and has confidence in his body.

Relying on one player to make the difference is asking a lot, one injury another missed opportunit.

 

[25 years on]

Free kicks is something We don’t take seriously enough, two innocuous free in Caleb Daniels defensive 50, two goal opportunities moments later. Joel Selwood made a career out of his ability to win free kicks.
We give them away to easily, we don’t defend them very well, we are lazy when we take them, we don’t play for them to the extent some teams do. Considering how many goals come directly or indirectly from them I think training for free kicks should be a necessary part of training.
Also, the Swans jumped us at the start of the season by paying attention to the AFL rule changes.

 

[M Malice]

Free kicks is something We don’t take seriously enough, two innocuous free in Caleb Daniels defensive 50, two goal opportunities moments later. Joel Selwood made a career out of his ability to win free kicks.
We give them away to easily, we don’t defend them very well, we are lazy when we take them, we don’t play for them to the extent some teams do. Considering how many goals come directly or indirectly from them I think training for free kicks should be a necessary part of training.
Also, the Swans jumped us at the start of the season by paying attention to the AFL rule changes.

So you're saying we need to select Matho every week?

 

[25 years on]

So you're saying we need to select Matho every week?

He wasn’t good enough at it, give him more training, but overall the dogs would not get as many frees if they were not good at drawing them, Selwood did it successfully all his career, the Daniels kicks are trained, when Harris gets a free he does a lazy kick sideway with no plan and he often fails with it

 

[25 years on]

So you're saying we need to select Matho every week?

And just think how we would feel about our season it we one more free or the dogs would have had one less

 

[mpal6]

Defense:
Coleman will get Birchall's spot now. Just need to add Madden back in defense and let them settle through first half of next year.

Middle:
Starce, Berry, Nakia (may be not Rayner due to ACL return) - need 2 of them to go through the middle and be that explosive bull at gates. Similarly for wing, Sharp hopefully is ready to take over that spot from McCluggage. It'll push Hugh more inside and helps change the midfield dynamic. Waiting to see who wants the other wing spot from Robbo, could be Robertson.

Forward:
We should train both Payne and Andrews to play both ends giving us maximum flexibility. They can potentially rotate between both ends until Hipwood returns. I am secretly hoping we get someone like Ceglar, who could even be the main ruck and help us push Big O forward.

 

[ManeMan]

Defense:
Coleman will get Birchall's spot now. Just need to add Madden back in defense and let them settle through first half of next year.

Middle:
Starce, Berry, Nakia (may be not Rayner due to ACL return) - need 2 of them to go through the middle and be that explosive bull at gates. Similarly for wing, Sharp hopefully is ready to take over that spot from McCluggage. It'll push Hugh more inside and helps change the midfield dynamic. Waiting to see who wants the other wing spot from Robbo, could be Robertson.

Forward:
We should train both Payne and Andrews to play both ends giving us maximum flexibility. They can potentially rotate between both ends until Hipwood returns. I am secretly hoping we get someone like Ceglar, who could even be the main ruck and help us push Big O forward.

I like this idea. I think it's important that we still get games into Payne, if it's as a forward so be it. Other clubs will continue to come after him if he's not getting selected. He'd be best 22 for plenty of other clubs.

I don't love the idea of moving Harris forward, but it could be a savvy move until Hipwood gets back. A backline of Adams, Gardiner and Payne is still solid. In fact, they're probably all more accountable 1 on 1 than Harris at the moment. Could always move the magnets around on game day if things get dire. I'd actually prefer this to playing Fullarton currently.

 

[pulpdriver]

My concern about Starce is that he seems to lack the awareness of a true midfielder. We've seen him caught several times over the course of the season in a way Neale or McCluggage doesn't tend to be - the case that sticks in the mind is last weekend where he fended off/dodged a couple of Dogs in the middle, and then got caught from behind because it didn't seem to click that doing so is going to give opponents time to catch up to him.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I don't feel like there's been enough such moments for me to overlook his upside in the middle.

 

[Roylion]

I'd like to see another mature ruck added to the list, as a back up for Oscar, as our ruck stocks are a little thin. If Oscar goes down, we're in trouble.

Another midfielder would also be handy. Tom Mitchell would be great, but might be reluctant to leave Victoria. Also contracted.

Trent Dumont

43

Trent Dumont

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.9

5star

K

10.5

4star

HB

9.4

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.1

5star

CL

2.6

4star

D

20.1

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

9.7

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.9

5star

CL

2.4

4star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

0.6

1star

T

4.4

5star

CL

2.6

5star

however is an unrestricted free agent and is only 26.

 

[jackess]

I'd like to see another mature ruck added to the list, as a back up for Oscar, as our ruck stocks are a little thin. If Oscar goes down, we're in trouble.

Another midfielder would also be handy. Tom Mitchell would be great, but might be reluctant to leave Victoria. Also contracted.

Trent Dumont however is an unrestricted free agent and is only 26.

Is Dumont displacing someone in the best 22

 

[Roylion]

Is Dumont displacing someone in the best 22

Depends on his form (and their form) I guess. Midfield depth on the list is always good.

 

[pulpdriver]

Depends on his form (and their form) I guess. Midfield depth on the list is always good.

Our list is way too tight. We could make the space for an extra first rounder or a gun recruit but no way we're bringing in someone like Dumont. We just re-signed Matho for two years and we have good youth. That's our depth.