How the AFL lost the battle for Sydney

[Kobe Gryant]

As I said, the afl is not here to “win” Sydney. Most of the working class areas are die hard nrl fans, u can’t change their mind. The afl just wants a decent chunk of the pie, and ideally that chunk is the wealthier areas.

They're doing okay in that regard. The North Shore has certainly improved as an AFL market, even down to junior level with Wiloughby and Mosman having big and successful junior clubs nowadays, with a lot of these boys ending up in the Swans academy.

These suburbs are pretty evenly split with league, Union and AFL allegiance, but anything west of Ryde is league territory and the AFL is fighting a losing battle out there as you said.

It's probably the only area of NSW where there's undying passion for the sport regardless of team performance...where as over in the east you're either a Swans, Roosters or Waratahs fan depending on which team is going the best.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

That's what needs to happen to kids in Sydney if you want more AFL engagement. They need to get interested, for whatever reason, as kids and it generally sticks with you keep being interested in sport as you age.

Being a younger bloke up here it's hard to explain, it's something you have to see to fully grasp IMO.

I remember years ago moving as an absolute footy nuff of a kid, but I was self aware enough to know that there weren't going to be goalposts on the playground or footy chat between classes, so I decided to expand my sporting knowledge and actually became a pretty big league fan in preparation for what was to come.

Much to my surprise it wasn't just that people weren't into footy, they just weren't into sport in general. It was a real shock as growing up as a kid in Melbourne it was footy in the winter and cricket in the summer, it was like a religion, and if you didn't do that then you weren't in the 'cool' or popular groups, but it just never seemed to happen up here.

As you get older blokes get a bit more into sport, but it's usually just expanding their knowledge for their punting as much as anything. You'll see it particularly around finals time, guys who haven't shown a lick of interest in footy all year are now AFL experts after their NRL team's season has finished.

It's just the way things are up here. People just aren't that passionate about sport, so coming back to your point it's not a matter exposure IMO, it really is all about the culture of the place, particularly in the east. I wouldn't say it's frowned upon to be a sporting nuff, but it's certainly not as widely accepted as it would be in Victoria or SA IMO.

The best way I could describe it is if you've seen a Sydneysider asked about the lack of attendance at NRL games, the most common response is "Oh we've got better things to do up here" or something along those lines. That's Sydney's North Shore/Eastern Suburbs sporting culture in a nutshell for you.

 

[Hoops]

Jeremy Cammeron could walk down Pitt St - any time of the day - and no one would give him a 2nd look

Day to day living - re Syd people - AFL isnt on the landscape

What if he was walking a cow, with a medal around it's neck?

 

[kranky al]

What if he was walking a cow, with a medal around it's neck?

Would pauline hanson consent to that?

 

[flamingEMBERS]

AFL would be wise to host a GF in Sydney at Stadium Australia

 

[coxon]

Yep the Giants should be tapping into the young families markets who are all over their real catchment area of say inner west to up towards Pennant Hills.

Should be offering five free games to giants games as part of their fees for the u10s or whatever.

yep, def the young families/kids

all auskickers get a junior club membership for their nominated team (GWS - 4 games included)

 

[bloodsbigot]

The article is just an insecure reaction to the AFL getting a way better TV rights deal than NRL.

Grasping at straws. AFL has won bigtime for the next decade and they're just reassuring themselves.

AFL will take a small chunk of that TV money and keep investing in western Sydney. And they'll keep doing it forever basically.

 

[bloodsbigot]

AFL would be wise to host a GF in Sydney at Stadium Australia

I reckon the AFL should relocate their entire headquarters away from Docklands to Sydney in all honesty. That'd speed up the process of converting the locals.

If you read a book like the Prince by Machiavelli, the best way to secure new territories is for the emperor/king/prince to move to the actual colony and set up shop.

That way, the AFL would have a better understanding of the challenges of winning over Sydney. It's basically useless remaining in Melbourne because the area is unlosable. If they were serious about expansion they'd do this.

The magic round is a step in the right direction, but they need to take it a step further and move away from hosting the Grand Final at the MCG forever and break that ridiculous 1000 year contract they have. They should hold the Grand Final at the MCG once every two years and move it around Australia. Hosting the Grand Final in Sydney is the first logical choice. Heck, even give the Grand Final to Sydney once every 5-10 years. Just at least move it away from the MCG. We've already been forced to break tradition with covid so let's just keep it going now.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I reckon the AFL should relocate their entire headquarters away from Docklands to Sydney in all honesty. That'd speed up the process of converting the locals.

If you read a book like the Prince by Machiavelli, the best way to secure new territories is for the emperor/king/prince to move to the actual colony and set up shop.

That way, the AFL would have a better understanding of the challenges of winning over Sydney. It's basically useless remaining in Melbourne because the area is unlosable. If they were serious about expansion they'd do this.

The magic round is a step in the right direction, but they need to take it a step further and move away from hosting the Grand Final at the MCG forever and break that ridiculous 1000 year contract they have. They should hold the Grand Final at the MCG once every two years and move it around Australia. Hosting the Grand Final in Sydney is the first logical choice. Heck, even give the Grand Final to Sydney once every 5-10 years. Just at least move it away from the MCG. We've already been forced to break tradition with covid so let's just keep it going now.

But didn't you know???? The MCG is the SPIRITUAL HOME* of footy!!!


*Term never actually defined, but it trumps all arguments other apparently.

 

[maskmcgee]

Notice what the kids in the background are doing with the footy? And not one of those Australian extras realised?

The battle was lost long ago.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

I reckon the AFL should relocate their entire headquarters away from Docklands to Sydney in all honesty. That'd speed up the process of converting the locals.

If you read a book like the Prince by Machiavelli, the best way to secure new territories is for the emperor/king/prince to move to the actual colony and set up shop.

That way, the AFL would have a better understanding of the challenges of winning over Sydney. It's basically useless remaining in Melbourne because the area is unlosable. If they were serious about expansion they'd do this.

The magic round is a step in the right direction, but they need to take it a step further and move away from hosting the Grand Final at the MCG forever and break that ridiculous 1000 year contract they have. They should hold the Grand Final at the MCG once every two years and move it around Australia. Hosting the Grand Final in Sydney is the first logical choice. Heck, even give the Grand Final to Sydney once every 5-10 years. Just at least move it away from the MCG. We've already been forced to break tradition with covid so let's just keep it going now.

They currently pander to the old state league base, moving to Sydney is a great call.

 

[Sector 7G]

But didn't you know???? The MCG is the SPIRITUAL HOME* of footy!!!


*Term never actually defined, but it trumps all arguments other apparently.

Could it be because the first game of Australian Rules Football in a crude form was played there of there abouts in 1858

 

[Walshawk]

AFL would be wise to host a GF in Sydney at Stadium Australia

When they rebuild the Warne Stand around 2030, rather than have three compromised seasons with a capacity of 70k, they need to do what the did in 1991, knock it over and get it done in 18 months and play a GF elsewhere. I.e. Sydney. A GF would do more for the growth of the game than all the hundreds of millions spent on GWS.

 

[Walshawk]

I reckon the AFL should relocate their entire headquarters away from Docklands to Sydney in all honesty. That'd speed up the process of converting the locals.

If you read a book like the Prince by Machiavelli, the best way to secure new territories is for the emperor/king/prince to move to the actual colony and set up shop.

That way, the AFL would have a better understanding of the challenges of winning over Sydney. It's basically useless remaining in Melbourne because the area is unlosable. If they were serious about expansion they'd do this.

The magic round is a step in the right direction, but they need to take it a step further and move away from hosting the Grand Final at the MCG forever and break that ridiculous 1000 year contract they have. They should hold the Grand Final at the MCG once every two years and move it around Australia. Hosting the Grand Final in Sydney is the first logical choice. Heck, even give the Grand Final to Sydney once every 5-10 years. Just at least move it away from the MCG. We've already been forced to break tradition with covid so let's just keep it going now.

Brilliant post.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Could it be because the first game of Australian Rules Football in a crude form was played there of there abouts in 1858

I'm well aware of the history, just don't see how the words "spiritual home" have any place in a rational discussion of where the GF should be played. People always cite it like it's some sort of clincher argument.

 

[AndyD]

I’d say on any critical analysis, the V/AFL’s two expansion attempts to Sydney certainly couldn’t be considered a success. This was the Swans 40th year in the market, and since at least 1993/4 the AFL have been committed to Sydney’s success in that market. In a season in which they made a grand final, the average TV rating for the Swans in Sydney was 51k. Is it gonna take another 40 years before they can top (or even get close to) the 80-100k that WCE/Freo/Port/Crows get in significantly smaller overall markets?

The TV numbers in both QLD and NSW also show the lie that the addition of the two new teams was required in the locations chosen, because it’s hard to believe 7/Fox are forking out all that money for the next 7 years for 25k per game in NSW/QLD, especially when their is no guarantee 7 would be able to reap the fruits of any increase in viewership in 20/30 years times. Their value to the TV deal was simply allowing the AFL to sell 9 games per week at $x instead of 8.

It is hard not to assume the V/AFL would’ve done around the same, or at least not significantly worse TV numbers (at a much smaller cost), had they gone with 11 neutral site games per year at the SCG instead of shifting a team permanently into a market that was not ready for it. Such an approach would’ve likely laid a much stronger foundation for support of a club in that market compared to what happened.


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[AndyD]

Yep the Giants should be tapping into the young families markets who are all over their real catchment area of say inner west to up towards Pennant Hills.

Should be offering five free games to giants games as part of their fees for the u10s or whatever.

Would be one of the worst ideas possible, because all you’re training those kids is that you shouldn’t have to pay to attend a game. Partnering with junior clubs to provide exclusive areas/benefits to junior members that play with those clubs would be a worthy idea, but discounting in the way suggested isn’t. A one off/infrequent freebie can be fine, but sustained free tickets is death for any promotional event which will hope to make money on future ticket sales, because you’re just training that market to hold out for free tickets. The price barrier for entry for people to want to sample the product in those markets is low enough, without further warping the psychology of any potential ticket buyer.


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[juddy_Like]

Would be one of the worst ideas possible, because all you’re training those kids is that you shouldn’t have to pay to attend a game. Partnering with junior clubs to provide exclusive areas/benefits to junior members that play with those clubs would be a worthy idea, but discounting in the way suggested isn’t. A one off/infrequent freebie can be fine, but sustained free tickets is death for any promotional event which will hope to make money on future ticket sales, because you’re just training that market to hold out for free tickets. The price barrier for entry for people to want to sample the product in those markets is low enough, without further warping the psychology of any potential ticket buyer.


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It was just a general idea and not something with any science or data behind it. FWIW, a kid isn't going to know if his dad paid for entry or not. The ability or want to go each week is what's important here and really my point.

I've also been to quite a few Giants games over the years and the max I've paid is like $15. Each time discounted, with an affiliated code, would never pay full-price. With it a lot of us go, without it, its not even a consideration to go to SOP.

 

[juddy_Like]

Would be one of the worst ideas possible, because all you’re training those kids is that you shouldn’t have to pay to attend a game. Partnering with junior clubs to provide exclusive areas/benefits to junior members that play with those clubs would be a worthy idea, but discounting in the way suggested isn’t. A one off/infrequent freebie can be fine, but sustained free tickets is death for any promotional event which will hope to make money on future ticket sales, because you’re just training that market to hold out for free tickets. The price barrier for entry for people to want to sample the product in those markets is low enough, without further warping the psychology of any potential ticket buyer.


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I would hate to think of the crowds if you expect everyone to pay full price.

As I mentioned before, a lot of us are neutrals who live no-where near Olympic Park but still go as
a. its a relatively cheap game / day at the footy
b. giants stadium is actually a brilliant venue for footy
c. Giants before the last couple of years were enjoyable to watch
d. they were actually playing our team that week.

Again, if I had to pay full quack, the alternate option is to watch it at home or at the pub next door and that's a hell of a lot easier when you have no skin in the game.

 

[Ginnieboy]

Being a younger bloke up here it's hard to explain, it's something you have to see to fully grasp IMO.

I remember years ago moving as an absolute footy nuff of a kid, but I was self aware enough to know that there weren't going to be goalposts on the playground or footy chat between classes, so I decided to expand my sporting knowledge and actually became a pretty big league fan in preparation for what was to come.

Much to my surprise it wasn't just that people weren't into footy, they just weren't into sport in general. It was a real shock as growing up as a kid in Melbourne it was footy in the winter and cricket in the summer, it was like a religion, and if you didn't do that then you weren't in the 'cool' or popular groups, but it just never seemed to happen up here.

As you get older blokes get a bit more into sport, but it's usually just expanding their knowledge for their punting as much as anything. You'll see it particularly around finals time, guys who haven't shown a lick of interest in footy all year are now AFL experts after their NRL team's season has finished.

It's just the way things are up here. People just aren't that passionate about sport, so coming back to your point it's not a matter exposure IMO, it really is all about the culture of the place, particularly in the east. I wouldn't say it's frowned upon to be a sporting nuff, but it's certainly not as widely accepted as it would be in Victoria or SA IMO.

The best way I could describe it is if you've seen a Sydneysider asked about the lack of attendance at NRL games, the most common response is "Oh we've got better things to do up here" or something along those lines. That's Sydney's North Shore/Eastern Suburbs sporting culture in a nutshell for you.

Agreed, the RL comp just never had the inner city rivalry the VFL had, also RL is just a shit sport, I like watching the fights though, imagine coming up against one of those dudes ina dark ally, not my cup of tea lol.

 

[Ginnieboy]

I’d say on any critical analysis, the V/AFL’s two expansion attempts to Sydney certainly couldn’t be considered a success. This was the Swans 40th year in the market, and since at least 1993/4 the AFL have been committed to Sydney’s success in that market. In a season in which they made a grand final, the average TV rating for the Swans in Sydney was 51k. Is it gonna take another 40 years before they can top (or even get close to) the 80-100k that WCE/Freo/Port/Crows get in significantly smaller overall markets?

The TV numbers in both QLD and NSW also show the lie that the addition of the two new teams was required in the locations chosen, because it’s hard to believe 7/Fox are forking out all that money for the next 7 years for 25k per game in NSW/QLD, especially when their is no guarantee 7 would be able to reap the fruits of any increase in viewership in 20/30 years times. Their value to the TV deal was simply allowing the AFL to sell 9 games per week at $x instead of 8.

It is hard not to assume the V/AFL would’ve done around the same, or at least not significantly worse TV numbers (at a much smaller cost), had they gone with 11 neutral site games per year at the SCG instead of shifting a team permanently into a market that was not ready for it. Such an approach would’ve likely laid a much stronger foundation for support of a club in that market compared to what happened.


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AFL in Sydney will never get anywhere near what it is in Melbourne, just like RL won’t in Melbourne, Swans are going ok though, GWS are generations away from breaking even.

 

[Ginnieboy]

I’d say on any critical analysis, the V/AFL’s two expansion attempts to Sydney certainly couldn’t be considered a success. This was the Swans 40th year in the market, and since at least 1993/4 the AFL have been committed to Sydney’s success in that market. In a season in which they made a grand final, the average TV rating for the Swans in Sydney was 51k. Is it gonna take another 40 years before they can top (or even get close to) the 80-100k that WCE/Freo/Port/Crows get in significantly smaller overall markets?

The TV numbers in both QLD and NSW also show the lie that the addition of the two new teams was required in the locations chosen, because it’s hard to believe 7/Fox are forking out all that money for the next 7 years for 25k per game in NSW/QLD, especially when their is no guarantee 7 would be able to reap the fruits of any increase in viewership in 20/30 years times. Their value to the TV deal was simply allowing the AFL to sell 9 games per week at $x instead of 8.

It is hard not to assume the V/AFL would’ve done around the same, or at least not significantly worse TV numbers (at a much smaller cost), had they gone with 11 neutral site games per year at the SCG instead of shifting a team permanently into a market that was not ready for it. Such an approach would’ve likely laid a much stronger foundation for support of a club in that market compared to what happened.


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IMO RL is a dying sport due to concussion protocols, give it 10 years and those protocols will become too restrictive for the game to function in it’s current state, scary part is we won’t be far behind but I think we can ride the tide.

Remember little Johnny becomes more fragile with every passing generation, also the NRL is fast becoming a sport for Pacific Islanders, think they make up over 40% of the NRL, any gifted non Pacific Islander is far better off concentrating on AFL if they wanna make a buck out of sport IMO.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I’d say on any critical analysis, the V/AFL’s two expansion attempts to Sydney certainly couldn’t be considered a success. This was the Swans 40th year in the market, and since at least 1993/4 the AFL have been committed to Sydney’s success in that market. In a season in which they made a grand final, the average TV rating for the Swans in Sydney was 51k. Is it gonna take another 40 years before they can top (or even get close to) the 80-100k that WCE/Freo/Port/Crows get in significantly smaller overall markets?

I don’t think the TV figures for the four Sydney/QLD teams are ever going to be as good as for WCE/Freo/Port/Crows, and I don’t think the AFL expects they will.

 

[Dockeroo]

Why is there such an obsession within the AFL to “win the battle” in places like Sydney and Gold Coast? Why? I simply don’t get it.
Who said it was a battle? What’s the end game long term - AFL to wipe out rugby league and make the NRL extinct? Why would AFL executives obsess over something as stupid as that?
Meanwhile the game of Aussie rules footy was neglected for a very long time by the VFL/AFL in traditional footy states and still is to a degree. All the primetime slots and marquee games are the preserve of the big vic clubs to a large degree. The final is played in Melbourne until 2057.
Tasmania has been treated like shit by the AFL for decades to the point where the amount of high end talent produced there has dropped off significantly.
Tassie is actually a good example of an important point.
If the AFL finally sets up a new team there, I would be willing to bet that between now and 2040, Tasmania, with its tiny 250k population, will produce far more top 30 AFL draft picks between now and 2040 than the entirety of the western sydney suburbs with its 3 million plus population.
Doesn’t that just highlight how dumb the whole thing of pumping money into a black hole is?
The NRL looked after its base. Instead of pouring money into black holes in perth and Adelaide from its point of view, it went to regional strongholds like Townsville and Newcastle. Rewarding its loyal fans there and shoring up its base. The VFL did the opposite.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why is there such an obsession within the AFL to “win the battle” in places like Sydney and Gold Coast? Why? I simply don’t get it.
Who said it was a battle? What’s the end game long term - AFL to wipe out rugby league and make the NRL extinct? Why would AFL executives obsess over something as stupid as that?
Meanwhile the game of Aussie rules footy was neglected for a very long time by the VFL/AFL in traditional footy states and still is to a degree. All the primetime slots and marquee games are the preserve of the big vic clubs to a large degree. The final is played in Melbourne until 2057.
Tasmania has been treated like s**t by the AFL for decades to the point where the amount of high end talent produced there has dropped off significantly.
Tassie is actually a good example of an important point.
If the AFL finally sets up a new team there, I would be willing to bet that between now and 2040, Tasmania, with its tiny 250k population, will produce far more top 30 AFL draft picks between now and 2040 than the entirety of the western sydney suburbs with its 3 million plus population.
Doesn’t that just highlight how dumb the whole thing of pumping money into a black hole is?
The NRL looked after its base. Instead of pouring money into black holes in perth and Adelaide from its point of view, it went to regional strongholds like Townsville and Newcastle. Rewarding its loyal fans there and shoring up its base. The VFL did the opposite.

And a GF featuring the Tassie team will get how many viewers?

Not saying your point is wrong, just that there are a number of metrics to measure this by.