Independent report into Hobart's proposed new stadium has found the costs of the project have been significantly underestimated

[Sphynx]

Think there are some similarities with the Townsville Stadium, which was built super cheap despite the FIFO requirements

Yes, but they didn't deal with the VIC CFMEU despite the QLD branch trying to act likes it's little brother at stages.

It was also built 10 years ago prior to the covid material rate increases and about 6-7 CFMEU EBA's increases ago.....

Further, Oval stadiums generally have about an 80% bigger footprint than rectangular builds.

It's probably a $700-800m build in an oval format with todays material and labour costs.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Yes, but they didn't deal with the VIC CFMEU despite the QLD branch trying to act likes it's little brother at stages.

It was also built 10 years ago prior to the covid material rate increases and about 6-7 CFMEU EBA's increases ago.....

Further, Oval stadiums generally have about an 80% bigger footprint than rectangular builds.

It's probably a $700-800m build in an oval format with todays material and labour costs.

I like the part where the major contractors are potentially making hundreds of millions of dollars on projects like this, but you're pinning the cost of the overrun on workers.

Workers didn't break the economy mate, their greedy overlords did using the fallacy of trickle-down economics, which continues to be disproved time and again in Australia and across the globe.

 

[Sphynx]

I like the part where the major contractors are potentially making hundreds of millions of dollars on projects like this, but you're pinning the cost of the overrun on workers.

Workers didn't break the economy mate, their greedy overlords did using the fallacy of trickle-down economics, which continues to be disproved time and again in Australia and across the globe.

Are you confusing revenue with profits? There's not a construction company making that in this country.

Have you been living under a rock? Construction companies are going bust left and right.

The people making the most bank for their comparative output are the workers on these sites at the moment.


And I'm sorry, the state of the housing crisis, public debt of certain states has a lot to do with comparative costs and the strength of trade unions in this country.

The state government/developer should not be paying 3 x the building costs of somewhere like Manhattan. It's almost entirely attributed to labour costs also. The cost of labour and the free market has been at the expense of local manufacturing also. It was the only place that could be cut back.

Materials get made from overseas, local manufacturers completely railroaded, to simply offset the strength of the trade unions and the massive labour costs.

You want trickle-down economics. There you have it.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Are you confusing revenue with profits? There's not a construction company making that in this country.

Have you been living under a rock? Construction companies are going bust left and right.

The people making the most bank for their comparative output are the workers on these sites at the moment.


And I'm sorry, the state of the housing crisis, public debt of certain states has a lot to do with comparative costs and the strength of trade unions in this country.

The state government/developer should not be paying 3 x the building costs of somewhere like Manhattan. It's almost entirely attributed to labour costs also.

You think the tier 1s who are building billion-dollar stadiums are the ones going bust?

I'll say it again, workers trying desperately just to keep up with inflation and the rising cost of living did not break the economy. No one is getting pay rises grossly above inflation, so it's demonstrably not our fault as workers. Quit licking boots, the Tories don't care about you man.

 

[Bjo187]

The end cost is their fault.

They are only "blowouts" because state governments regularly underquote public works to manipulate public opinion.

What would have the reaction been in Tassie had they come out and declared the stadium cost as $1.2b? There was enough public backlash with a figure of half its cost.

They get these projects underway, have no way of accurately reporting end costs during it's construction then declare the real cost 2-3 years down the track in review after the fact.

Standard political manipulation.

Then every gullible person buys it and falls for "project cost blowouts"

This stadium was always going to cost $1b+, I've seen the initial budgetary architectural plans for the stadium.

It's clad in Tassie Oak.

90% of the labor is going to FIFO from Victoria also, as there are no companies on the Island big enough to service a project of this size and none of them are CFMEU signatories and this will be a major national project.

The CFMEU entity that controls Tassie's EBA's fall under CFMEU VIC/TAS also.

The main beneficiaries from it's construction will be Victorian companies.

This will be the most expensive stadium per seat in the country, easily.

No other stadium like it has had to fly in the majority of it's workforce with living away from home wage allowances, lodgings etc.

It's more comparable to a major offshore Gas project or remote mining project tbh.

It sounds silly when talking about a capital city of a state in the commonwealth of this country, however blame the left/ALP for the strength of the trade unions in this country which is next level to just about anywhere on the planet.

I've always said government projects in Australia we should follow the successful Singapore model. Bring in construction workers from overseas, it's cheaper, quicker and there's no union bullshit. I'm sure the public would appreciate their taxes being used more efficiently and not waiting forever for projects to be completed at a snail's pace.

 

[Sphynx]

You think the tier 1s who are building billion-dollar stadiums are the ones going bust?

I'll say it again, workers trying desperately just to keep up with inflation and the rising cost of living did not break the economy. No one is getting pay rises grossly above inflation, so it's demonstrably not our fault as workers. Quit licking boots, the Tories don't care about you man.

Err yes?

Ever heard of Probuild?

Hutchies were on their knee's 9 months ago and were reportedly running a projected book net profit of around $18m on $3b of works.....prior to even beginning them.

That's 0.6%. How do you think that contingency goes?

That's the definition of operating to keep your head above water..


Most of the biggest commercial Australia builders are owned by international corporations. They cover losses.

No one is getting pay rises grossly above inflation, so it's demonstrably not our fault as workers. Quit licking boots, the Tories don't care about you man.

LOL.

If you want to talk about 1 year in isolation, sure, but the CFMEU will still recieve 5% year on year pay rises it's not really that out of step with cost of living, is it?

Would you like to go through the other 15 years where there were similar payrises with inflation figures of around 1%?


The current labour market is unsustainable. There will be a union busting period akin to which the UK endured in the 70's in our lifetime.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Err yes?

Ever heard of Probuild?

Hutchies were on their knee's 9 months ago and were reportedly running a projected book net profit of around $18m on $3b of works.....prior to even beginning them.

That's 0.6%. How do you think that contingency goes?

That's the definition of operating to keep your head above water..


Most of the biggest commercial Australia builders are owned by international corporations. They cover losses.




LOL.

If you want to talk about 1 year in isolation, sure, but the CFMEU will still recieve 5% year on year pay rises it's not really that out of step with cost of living, is it?

Would you like to go through the other 15 years where there were similar payrises with inflation figures of around 1%?


The current labour market is unsustainable. There will be a union busting period akin to which the UK endured in the 70's in our lifetime.

They don't care about you, bootlicker...

 

[EagleMan87]

Plus, when you park the nostalgia of Baldock, Stewart, Hart, Hudson, Roach and Richo and consider how few genuine quality current AFL players hail from Tassie, to my mind they're going to have at least as many issues with prized draftees wanting to 'go home' within a couple of years as Gold Coast/GWS have had, maybe even more.

You're leaving the Riewoldt's out of that list?

Also, there is a decent amount of AFL level players, some of whom are/will be top tier (A. Pearce, Mihochek, Howe, Fox, McKercher, Nankervis)

Tasmanians in the AFL / AFLW | AFL Tasmania

www.afltas.com.au

Don't disagree with your point about the new team struggling to retain players, though.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

You're leaving the Riewoldt's out of that list?

Also, there is a decent amount of AFL level players, some of whom are/will be top tier (A. Pearce, Mihochek, Howe, Fox, McKercher, Nankervis)

Tasmanians in the AFL / AFLW | AFL Tasmania

www.afltas.com.au

Don't disagree with your point about the new team struggling to retain players, though.

Well, it wasn't meant to be exhaustive - I was about to chuck in Jack Riewoldt's name, but figured the point had been made that many all-time greats of the game are from Tasmania. I guess with Nick Riewoldt (along with say Garry Lyon and numerous others) there's a bit of a grey area as to which state solely claims them.

Nevertheless, I'd say it's pretty clear that the talent coming out of the "non-Aussie Rules" states has comfortably caught up to the talent coming out of Tasmania, whether that's due to the AFL teams (and, by extension, the academies), other factors, or a combination. But I think that both of the most recent expansion teams can look to the future with a great deal of optimism. Gold Coast due to the sheer volume of talent that's now coming out of the state and what seems to be a great academy pipeline, as well as building a fortress at home where they rarely lose. GWS has been consistently good for 10 years now and even when we think the latest exodus of players will cook them for years, there they are again in the top eight the following year.

 

[Saucery]

Plus, when you park the nostalgia of Baldock, Stewart, Hart, Hudson, Roach and Richo and consider how few genuine quality current AFL players hail from Tassie, to my mind they're going to have at least as many issues with prized draftees wanting to 'go home' within a couple of years as Gold Coast/GWS have had, maybe even more. Given I can probably guess what a late-teen/early-20s kid would probably choose if asked whether they want to move to the Gold Coast, Sydney, or Hobart for work.

It may not be as bad as all that. Remember when Brisbane lost the go home 5? Then turned to mostly recruiting the best country kids first, as no matter what they have to leave home. I also think Fagan is a lot to do with turning around our retention issues and even became what I would term a destination coach, so setting up that side of the club will be crucial. But it's true, Hobart does not offer the lifestyle of up north for youth.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

It may not be as bad as all that. Remember when Brisbane lost the go home 5? Then turned to mostly recruiting the best country kids first, as no matter what they have to leave home. I also think Fagan is a lot to do with turning around our retention issues and even became what I would term a destination coach, so setting up that side of the club will be crucial. But it's true, Hobart does not offer the lifestyle of up north for youth.

Hope so, I'm certainly not wishing any bad luck on the Devils.

I think winning solves everything, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Harley Reid stays in Perth if the Eagles start moving back up the ladder. Putting aside some very genuine non-football reasons for players to want to move back to the state where they grew up, I feel like it's as much a case of players getting tired of playing in front of 10,000 people every week, while they're probably seeing mates from their under 18s team playing on Anzac Day or an 80,000+ blockbuster at the MCG. But I think most players are happy enough playing in front of big home crowds wherever they land and if Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney and the SA/WA teams can keep offering that, they can be in the hunt to lure players to their club, just as much as the big MCG clubs.

It's a good point though, a little bit sad that it's the case where non-Vic teams will avoid a Vic Metro kid like the plague until the later rounds of the draft, but it goes both ways and of course you can't blame them for taking that approach in their recruiting.

 

[Bjo187]

It's why Tassie should recruit most of their players from Vic country, they have to relocate anyway and Hobart should be bigger than the majority of country towns.

It's why they need a good stadium and facilities, also they'll be celebrities in Tassie which is good for the ego.

 

[Saucery]

Hope so, I'm certainly not wishing any bad luck on the Devils.

I think winning solves everything, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Harley Reid stays in Perth if the Eagles start moving back up the ladder. Putting aside some very genuine non-football reasons for players to want to move back to the state where they grew up, I feel like it's as much a case of players getting tired of playing in front of 10,000 people every week, while they're probably seeing mates from their under 18s team playing on Anzac Day or an 80,000+ blockbuster at the MCG. But I think most players are happy enough playing in front of big home crowds wherever they land and if Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney and the SA/WA teams can keep offering that, they can be in the hunt to lure players to their club, just as much as the big MCG clubs.

It's a good point though, a little bit sad that it's the case where non-Vic teams will avoid a Vic Metro kid like the plague until the later rounds of the draft, but it goes both ways and of course you can't blame them for taking that approach in their recruiting.

I know, and it's not just relating to football either, many young folks (15-25) leave for the mainland once they qualify, especially those undertaking degrees. Theres a much smaller scope for advancement, few entertainment opportunities (for people who are mad about football this may help a little) and many see what their friends are up to on the mainland through social media and get a big case of FOMO.

True some return around 30, usually because they have started a family and want the support that relatives bring, but these are not going to become elite athletes. I'm sure this may help some who see an AFL pathway open up, though this would be but a handful.

 

[Fire]

It's why Tassie should recruit most of their players from Vic country, they have to relocate anyway and Hobart should be bigger than the majority of country towns.

It's why they need a good stadium and facilities, also they'll be celebrities in Tassie which is good for the ego.

uh, what?

I do think that the whole 'no U18 year old wants to live in Tasmania!" thing is overblown, because when you are talking about 700 listed AFL players, you are going to find a ton who love any environement since no group of people are a monolyth.

However this suggestion is just bizarre. Do you think that people who are from the country have never seen a city before? That they are scared of traffic and public transport? People from the country have a connection to their area they are from, not the general idea of 'country'. They are going to want to play for a Melbourne club so that their friends family and roots are a drive away. Anything else is the same difference, be it Tasmania or Adelaide or Brisbane.

 

[Bjo187]

uh, what?

I do think that the whole 'no U18 year old wants to live in Tasmania!" thing is overblown, because when you are talking about 700 listed AFL players, you are going to find a ton who love any environement since no group of people are a monolyth.

However this suggestion is just bizarre. Do you think that people who are from the country have never seen a city before? That they are scared of traffic and public transport? People from the country have a connection to their area they are from, not the general idea of 'country'. They are going to want to play for a Melbourne club so that their friends family and roots are a drive away. Anything else is the same difference, be it Tasmania or Adelaide or Brisbane.

Lol it's public knowledge that the reigning premiers built their list with this philosophy of drafting players from the country instead of the city, for retention purposes. It worked perfectly for them, I think it was the 15 or 16 draft they started this.

 

[Jezzitizle]

Starting football clubs isn’t about the first 10-20 years, ridiculous to evaluate them over such a trivial timeframe.

Giants, Tassie, GC will all be seen as the right move in the years come, and from then on.

Tassie will get an academy, squeeze the hell out of it and produce guns.

Some will leave, most will stay.

 

[Saucery]

Starting football clubs isn’t about the first 10-20 years, ridiculous to evaluate them over such a trivial timeframe.

Giants, Tassie, GC will all be seen as the right move in the years come, and from then on.

Tassie will get an academy, squeeze the hell out of it and produce guns.

Some will leave, most will stay.

This 1billion plus stadium (which is what this thread is about) has a maximum 30-year use by date, the replacement will likely cost a trillion (ok I might be exaggerating a bit).

The ones who leave will be mostly the cream, wanting to maximize their careers, I don't blame them. Seen it all before in every industry here, not just sports but finance, medical, IT, education, engineering etc.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I've always said government projects in Australia we should follow the successful Singapore model. Bring in construction workers from overseas, it's cheaper, quicker and there's no union bullshit. I'm sure the public would appreciate their taxes being used more efficiently and not waiting forever for projects to be completed at a snail's pace.

Built their national stadium (55k seater) back in 2014 and it cost them $1.9 billion, so didn’t help them much.

 

[Bjo187]

Built their national stadium (55k seater) back in 2014 and it cost them $1.9 billion, so didn’t help them much.

Dunno if you've been to Singapore but the infrastructure is amazing and gets built fast, unlike here. On the stadium I dunno if they used international's or locals, but it's in a prime location, has a roof and is air conditioned amongst other things. The locals love it.

 

[Jezzitizle]

This 1billion plus stadium (which is what this thread is about) has a maximum 30-year use by date, the replacement will likely cost a trillion (ok I might be exaggerating a big).

The ones who leave will be mostly the cream, wanting to maximize their careers, I don't blame them. Seen it all before in every industry here, not just sports but finance, medical, IT, education, engineering etc.

What happens in 30 years?

 

[Saucery]

What happens in 30 years?

The stadium reaches it use by date, eg needs to be rebuilt.

 

[Saucery]

Only 45 years since everywhere started doing it give it a chance it might yet work

There should be a sarcasm emote, am I right?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Lol it's public knowledge that the reigning premiers built their list with this philosophy of drafting players from the country instead of the city, for retention purposes. It worked perfectly for them, I think it was the 15 or 16 draft they started this.

They’ve drafted about 4 of their premiership side from the country.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The stadium reaches it use by date, eg needs to be rebuilt.

Current thinking on stadiums is ~25 years is a major refresh, ~50 years lifespan.

Get them right up front and they’ll stand the test of time and prove decent value.

If you’re looking to rebuild in 30 years then you’ve probably got it very wrong (Docklands).

 

[Bjo187]

They’ve drafted about 4 of their premiership side from the country.

It started the turnaround in high picks leaving them and was a deliberate strategy from the club that appeared to work well. I thought everybody knew this, they couldn't retain any high picks prior to this.