Is it time for a National Reserves League?

[madmug]

The AFL don't seem to see a difference. If they don't run it, then it's competition.

They would argue that they do it because they do care for the game as a whole, and what's 'best for the game' is for them to run it all.

The big problem is that they don't separate the 'good of the game'/'development'/'custodian' role from the need to run a fair sporting competition, so they corrupt the latter to satisfy the former and end up damaging both.

Hmmmmm. I'm not sure about all of that. I mean I understand AFLTas to be a branch office of the AFL. If the AFL condone what they've been up to, then the game of Australian rules football is in trouble.

I guess I live in hope.

Its clear that we do need an organisation that operates like the FA does in the UK. The FA runs the game under the top flight competition, the EPL run their own competition. They would work together in development & rules issues.

 

[telsor]

Well IMO the WAFL & SANFL & a 2nd tear vic comp are integral with the health of the AFL. Other levels less so, but they are integral to the health of Australian rules football. I know the AFLTas are only interested in themselves, but I'd hope the proper AFL are a little more considerate ofthe community game that underpins the professional game. I mean the game only exists in one medium sized nation, & mainly in only 1/2 of that. Its not in a hugely strong position so needs to care for the whole game.

If the VFL is integral to the health of the game, the game is very, very sick.

It's a joke of a 'competition', where most clubs don't care all that much about winning.

 

[telsor]

Hmmmmm. I'm not sure about all of that. I mean I understand AFLTas to be a branch office of the AFL. If the AFL condone what they've been up to, then the game of Australian rules football is in trouble.

I guess I live in hope.

Its clear that we do need an organisation that operates like the FA does in the UK. The FA runs the game under the top flight competition, the EPL run their own competition. They would work together in development & rules issues.

AFLTas & the VFL are examples of what happens when they get control...It's stuffed, but there is absolutely no way they'll let them out of their grasp. NEAFL is slightly better, but only because they care about it for development and growth of the game, rather than just taking that for granted in Vic/Tas (and WA/SA if they were able to).

As Wookie said several posts back (I'm paraphrasing liberally here), with the AFL it's all about the $$$...no money in a reserves comp, so no reserves. VFL & AFLTas don't make them money, so the goal there is to limit costs.

 

[madmug]

AFLTas & the VFL are examples of what happens when they get control...It's stuffed, but there is absolutely no way they'll let them out of their grasp. NEAFL is slightly better, but only because they care about it for development and growth of the game, rather than just taking that for granted in Vic/Tas (and WA/SA if they were able to).

As Wookie said several posts back (I'm paraphrasing liberally here), with the AFL it's all about the $$$...no money in a reserves comp, so no reserves. VFL & AFLTas don't make them money, so the goal there is to limit costs.

Well, no. I think that is a very simple & narrow view of their operations & role. The AFL are very interested in the games development. The health of the game isn't just predicated on simple income & costs. If the VFL is unhealthy, that shows that the clubs involved are only thinking of themselves. Thats natural, they generally work from the basis of self interest. They are in competition after all.

Its up to the AFL to consider the value of a 2nd tear, community based competitions. The value is certainly partly based on what it offers the AFL as a whole, but also on what it offers its community, the social & sporting health of that community. Gument look for the latter, more so than the income of the professional football body. The AFL rely on the Gument to assist it with development & facility projects. Some businesses who sponsor football also have an interest in the community aspect of the game. Many want to be associated with that aspect of the game.

So it ain't just the immediate $ to consider.

Ah, the politics of it all!!

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Any evidence at all to back this up? Any at all.

The ABC were railroaded out of television broadcasting by the belief that WAFL should be on free to air. Channels 9 and 10 didn't seem to get a look in during the process, with the mention that Channel 7 were the preferred partners. ABC paid all their costs but Channel 7 demanded that they had no costs to pay, hence the elongated process to find sponsors for the coverage.

The alignment sides were forced upon the WAFL despite strong opposition from the community and most clubs, and there is minimal advertising (I don't watch 7 so maybe it, if any, is all done through them?).

Crowds are down again with most reported crowds barely touching 2000.

I don't think it is fiction to say that the WAFC care much more about the AFL sides and they have dropped the ball with the WAFL.

 

[Perry Pie]

Two reserve leagues - National (the 8 non vic teams) and Victorian.
In the national league teams play everyone H & A plus the team in their home state again H & A. = 16 games. With 4 byes spread in the season the H & A takes 20 weeks. Every team travels interstate 6 times. That is only 6 trips x 8 clubs = 48 travels for the wholes season (excluding finals) - not a big cost for the AFL.
The Victorian league is 18 games each for the ten teams - a couple of byes in the season means that it will also take 20 weeks. No travel but a couple of extra games.
Probably start a week after the main season start?
Top 4 make the finals with the grand final between the winners of each competition. Competition would end in the early weeks of the finals.

The real cost issue is covering the cost of non-AFL part of the reserve team lists. Not sure how many players are needed for that, but it is not free.

 

[footyfan1978]

Well, no. I think that is a very simple & narrow view of their operations & role. The AFL are very interested in the games development. The health of the game isn't just predicated on simple income & costs. If the VFL is unhealthy, that shows that the clubs involved are only thinking of themselves. Thats natural, they generally work from the basis of self interest. They are in competition after all.

Its up to the AFL to consider the value of a 2nd tear, community based competitions. The value is certainly partly based on what it offers the AFL as a whole, but also on what it offers its community, the social & sporting health of that community. Gument look for the latter, more so than the income of the professional football body. The AFL rely on the Gument to assist it with development & facility projects. Some businesses who sponsor football also have an interest in the community aspect of the game. Many want to be associated with that aspect of the game.

So it ain't just the immediate $ to consider.

Ah, the politics of it all!!

Bloody well said mate. Bloody well said!

 

[madmug]

Two reserve leagues - National (the 8 non vic teams) and Victorian.
In the national league teams play everyone H & A plus the team in their home state again H & A. = 16 games. With 4 byes spread in the season the H & A takes 20 weeks. Every team travels interstate 6 times. That is only 6 trips x 8 clubs = 48 travels for the wholes season (excluding finals) - not a big cost for the AFL.
The Victorian league is 18 games each for the ten teams - a couple of byes in the season means that it will also take 20 weeks. No travel but a couple of extra games.
Probably start a week after the main season start?
Top 4 make the finals with the grand final between the winners of each competition. Competition would end in the early weeks of the finals.

The real cost issue is covering the cost of non-AFL part of the reserve team lists. Not sure how many players are needed for that, but it is not free.

That might suit the Vic clubs, playing home & away. I doubt the others would appreciate or see the value in flying 2nds guys around the country side for 'practise matches' every where but Victoria. No, its all in one comp, or forget it.

 

[madmug]

Bloody well said mate. Bloody well said!

Yes well some dont see the politics in the AFLs decision making. Always mitigated by financial considerations of course.

As a matter of interest, I see this year they are playing a friday night game in Hobart between North Melbourne & Richmond. Personally I dont understand why they would bother. Yes its nice for the locals but I dont see the financial benefit. I would have thought a saturday afternoon would be great for Tassie. plenty of time to enjoy the morning, or travel down from Melbourne of the north of the state. But friday night? I dont see the benefit for anybody in that.

Anyway. the experts of AFL finances may have a reason for it. Maybe Gil felt bad about the AFL board meeting they had down here earlier this year. It was a non event, nothing positive. Nothing positive about our own team anytime this century, nothing positive about junior development, an academy or the like. Nothing but the rehash, 'lets work together' type shyte. Just the usual arrogance & negativity. So maybe the friday game is some sort of kiss & make up job?

Whats the benefit? A big WOT I reckon.

 

[footyfan1978]

As a matter of interest, I see this year they are playing a friday night game in Hobart between North Melbourne & Richmond. Personally I dont understand why they would bother. Yes its nice for the locals but I dont see the financial benefit. I would have thought a saturday afternoon would be great for Tassie. plenty of time to enjoy the morning, or travel down from Melbourne of the north of the state. But friday night? I dont see the benefit for anybody in that.

Agreed. Should be a Saturday arvo game like the Hawthorn v Carlton game will be. As a Carlton supporter there is a chance I may well goto Tassie for the weekend to see us play. Get Spirit of Tasmania ferry on Friday night with car and watch the game Saturday.
However if it was a Friday night game I cannot see many Victorians getting over their to see their club. The Friday night game will have to be only locals. Hopefully it is a full house.

 

[kingy88]

3) costs ain't that bad

Let's assume 50 extra bums, 25 players and 25 support staff. That's probably over the top by a long way, but I'm feeling generous.

Assume $2000 per person in total travel costs per game. Again, that's over the top, but it's an absolute worst case scenario

So that brings us to $100k.

Multiple that by nine (again, feeling generous) and that by 22 you come in at around $20m

When I quickly did the figures less conservatively i came up with:

$200 average flight cost
$100 per person for 1 night hotel accom
35 people travelling per team
22 rounds
7 travelling teams per round

Total cost = $1.62m

The AFL already has this money, and now has these games to sell tv rights for to cover costs.

 

[Colonial]

The northern clubs are already travelling all over the country for NEAFL.

 

[madmug]

The northern clubs are already travelling all over the country for NEAFL.

Yes & I wonder what that has achieved for them all? FF points?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

When I quickly did the figures less conservatively i came up with:

$200 average flight cost
$100 per person for 1 night hotel accom
35 people travelling per team
22 rounds
7 travelling teams per round

Total cost = $1.62m

The AFL already has this money, and now has these games to sell tv rights for to cover costs.

Need to double accomodation ($100 doesn't get you a motel room these days) and triple airfares (WA/East coast ain't cheap)

 

[kingy88]

Need to double accomodation ($100 doesn't get you a motel room these days) and triple airfares (WA/East coast ain't cheap)

I was imagining twin share, I doubt they would get their own rooms.

 

[Colonial]

Yes & I wonder what that has achieved for them all? FF points?

Zip.

Which is why a national reserves is needed.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I was imagining twin share, I doubt they would get their own rooms.

Then you still need to increase

My experience is you only get a one bed room for that rate these days

 

[kingy88]

Then you still need to increase

My experience is you only get a one bed room for that rate these days

A quick search for Sat the 14th and i found:

Novotel Sydney Olympic Park 4* $220
Crowne Plaza Adelaide 4.5* $179
Mercure Perth 4.5* $219
Art Series Blackman Melbourne 5* $329

Average per night per person $118.38, so yes slightly higher. However I'm sure afternoon games wouldn't require an overnight stay, which would bring the cost down a bit. Also I'm sure getting 18 or so rooms would provide some kind of group booking discount.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

A quick search for Sat the 14th and i found:

Novotel Sydney Olympic Park 4* $220
Crowne Plaza Adelaide 4.5* $179
Mercure Perth 4.5* $219
Art Series Blackman Melbourne 5* $329

Average per night per person $118.38, so yes slightly higher. However I'm sure afternoon games wouldn't require an overnight stay, which would bring the cost down a bit. Also I'm sure getting 18 or so rooms would provide some kind of group booking discount.

firstly you will find they will be staying at the same joint as the AFL players

secondly you need a place that can accept that many people in a single booking. that rules out a lot of places

 

[aCunningPlan]

If there ever was a Reserves league I don't think they should wear the same jumper as the Firsts, that is something that needs to be strived for.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

A quick search for Sat the 14th and i found:

Novotel Sydney Olympic Park 4* $220
Crowne Plaza Adelaide 4.5* $179
Mercure Perth 4.5* $219
Art Series Blackman Melbourne 5* $329

Average per night per person $118.38, so yes slightly higher. However I'm sure afternoon games wouldn't require an overnight stay, which would bring the cost down a bit. Also I'm sure getting 18 or so rooms would provide some kind of group booking discount.

The AFL could have redirected the $1 million or so they wasted on the Irish junket towards a National Reserves League - much better use of funds.

$1 million divided by 18 is just over $50K each ... that would cover a few hotel stays!

 

[eth-dog]

I think we're heading towards that quickly, but they'll need another 30 players on the supplementary list. It will all but kill the state leagues however, with very few players wanting to play for someone like Frankston instead of a big club like Essendon.

It would be nice to see clubs back at their traditional homes for reserves matches as well. Imagine Carlton vs Brisbane at Princes Park or St. Kilda vs Sydney at Moorabbin?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I think we're heading towards that quickly, but they'll need another 30 players on the supplementary list. It will all but kill the state leagues however, with very few players wanting to play for someone like Frankston instead of a big club like Essendon.

It would be nice to see clubs back at their traditional homes for reserves matches as well. Imagine Carlton vs Brisbane at Princes Park or St. Kilda vs Sydney at Moorabbin?

It will kill the state leagues for sure. Having said that what supplementary players are going to be interested in playing for a footy club who have no interest in winning the comp they are in?
It is clear AFL clubs have no interest in second tier other than a development training ground, why would the AFL invest money in a lose money venture? It is a stupid idea having a seconds comp.
I actually think all AFL clubs seconds sides just organise games on a weekly basis with whoever, no points, no ladders, no finals. They don't care and the public won't either.
How are the crowds at the stand alone AFL seconds sides? Getting people to watch are they?

 

[The_Wookie]

It will kill the state leagues for sure. Having said that what supplementary players are going to be interested in playing for a footy club who have no interest in winning the comp they are in?
It is clear AFL clubs have no interest in second tier other than a development training ground, why would the AFL invest money in a lose money venture? It is a stupid idea having a seconds comp.
I actually think all AFL clubs seconds sides just organise games on a weekly basis with whoever, no points, no ladders, no finals. They don't care and the public won't either.
How are the crowds at the stand alone AFL seconds sides? Getting people to watch are they?

Because it makes the game more accessible to locals and brings in further sponsorship and tv money - ratings for the VFL are higher than most AFL games broadcast into Queensland, New South Wales and Tasmania. The 58k 2015 VFL average beats every AFL game shown into Queensland in 2015, and would only beaten by a handful of Swans games in New South Wales. Its also higher than the average tv rating for AFL games shown into Tasmania.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Because it makes the game more accessible to locals and brings in further sponsorship and tv money - ratings for the VFL are higher than most AFL games broadcast into Queensland, New South Wales and Tasmania. The 58k 2015 VFL average beats every AFL game shown into Queensland in 2015, and would only beaten by a handful of Swans games in New South Wales. Its also higher than the average tv rating for AFL games shown into Tasmania.

Still won't change the fact that the sides playing don't care if they win or lose. But like you said if it is for money and not footy the AFL will do it.