Analysis Is Leppa the Right Man for the Job?

[jackess]

This has been raised a fair bit, but I reckon it's hard to develop in a increasingly young side and fighting to survive matches.
Which players?
Green? out of sorts and injured, has only played half a season this year, but even those games on average, the last 3 years are miles better than the first 3.
Mayes? Had a down year last year, (second year blues in his third year). Learning a new position, he has now performing as well or better than before.
Close? Had a year off and is still performing better than his first.

I hope we're not looking at guys like McGrath, Watts, McGuiness, or even Beams as development failures. The poor bastards haven't been fit enough, long enough to develop a blister, let alone a game. Are people looking at standouts at other clubs to make development judgements? Look how well Bontempelli has come along. Yeah, the guy who beat him for the rising star hasn't progressed, but again, trying to get better in a team that was getting worse is probably a tough ask.
Just not sure where people expected to see leaps and bounds.

Then we're screwed.

There's also Paparone, Taylor, Robertson, Freeman and Paine all stalling or not coming along as quickly as we'd like.

The only development success stories we're seeing are Cutler and Mayes arguably although I think both have been dropped this season IIRC.

 

[notliondown]

Then we're screwed.

There's also Paparone, Taylor, Robertson, Freeman and Paine all stalling or not coming along as quickly as we'd like.

The only development success stories we're seeing are Cutler and Mayes arguably although I think both have been dropped this season IIRC.

Paps has been injured most of the year in one form or another, as have Robertson (but showed good signs when playing IMO) and Freeman to varying degrees. Taylor has suffered contractitis.

Maybe some or all have suffered stalled development but this year really isn't the year to judge it by.

 

[SizeMatters]

Then we're screwed.

There's also Paparone, Taylor, Robertson, Freeman and Paine all stalling or not coming along as quickly as we'd like.

The only development success stories we're seeing are Cutler and Mayes arguably although I think both have been dropped this season IIRC.

+ Green, McStay, Lester, Gardiner and than you have the blokes that have been round for a while that haven't improved in Rich, Rocky, and Hanley...

Everyone of those have massive flaws in their game that has not been improved on whether that be work ethic, fitness or just plain old skills. It seems half our list don't strive to be the best they can possibly be or put in the required effort that is needed to be successful at AFL and I think that is why we are so rubbish today. Been going on for years...

Now that's not just Leppas fault but it is his problem and it seems it has taken him one too many years to find a solution. I can't wait for a revamp of the assistant coaches/staff and I'm more excited about what we can do in that regard than who our new head coach will be.

 

[dlanod]

Aish was one of the names the Pies threw up as part of the Beams trade. If he'd made his mind up twelve months earlier we could have held onto Crisp. We ended up with Bastinac for Aish. Beams + Crisp > Beams + Bastinac, IMO.

I got what you're saying, but Crisp was already declining to sign a two year contract offer on the table. It was strongly rumoured at the time that he was going to ask for a trade to Essendon. Plus the Pies were asking for our first + Aish as one of the permutations. That means Aish would've effectively only been worth a pick in the 20s plus whatever we got back for Crisp (wouldn't have been a pick in the 20s). Instead last year Aish got us two picks in the 20s. I think we came out ahead by Aish not being included in the Beams trade.

 

[Skoob]

Then we're screwed.

There's also Paparone, Taylor, Robertson, Freeman and Paine all stalling or not coming along as quickly as we'd like.

The only development success stories we're seeing are Cutler and Mayes arguably although I think both have been dropped this season IIRC.

Paps has had a fair whack on the sidelines this year and prior to that was also learning a new roll down back.
Taylor I mentioned. Robbo's been a bit slow, but has improved from his starting point. Paine... well, you win some, you lose some. Not all players develop quickly, or even at all. Sometimes, that's just the reality for that player.
Other clubs, even very good clubs, have players that don't develop or do so slowly. People are pointing out to be a big issue for us. Maybe it is, but maybe it isn't the bigger issue if we look at why. As mentioned, facilities and a grossly underfunded football department (including staff) all impacts development.

 

[josephs_79]

Now that's not just Leppas fault but it is his problem and it seems it has taken him one too many years to find a solution. I can't wait for a revamp of the assistant coaches/staff and I'm more excited about what we can do in that regard than who our new head coach will be.

Being how much you have been in the Get rid of Leppa camp (or how I have understood your posts), if they changed all of the above but kept Leppa how would you feel then?

 

[SizeMatters]

Being how much you have been in the Get rid of Leppa camp (or how I have understood your posts), if they changed all of the above but kept Leppa how would you feel then?

I still think it's best for both parties to move Leppa on as cleanly as possible. He has had a while to implement some sort of game plan that can get us winning games and I don't think he has. Also if the media reports are to be believed he doesn't really discuss anything with his assistants besides Daly which is a huge problem IMO. Peppa comes across as a smart bloke and I'm sure he is but the results start to catch up with you no matter who you are club legend or not he has to go.

 

[Skoob]

And who are we comparing development with? Other clubs' full lists or just the teams they put on the field each week?
over the last 3 years, we have used more players than any other club.
These are the numbers for just over halfway this year (bracketed ladder position after round 15);
Adelaide 27 (5)

Geelong 29 (2)

Hawthorn 31 (1)

Sydney 31 (4)

West Coast 32 (8)

North Melbourne 33 (7)

Port Adelaide 33 (9)

Carlton 33 (14)

St Kilda 33 (13)

GWS 34 (3)

Melbourne 34 (10)

Richmond 34 (12)

Western Bulldogs 36 (6)

Fremantle 36 (16)

Brisbane 36 (17)

Essendon 36 (18)

Collingwood 38 (11)

Gold Coast 38 (15)

No coincidence that the top teams have used fewer players. This also impacts development. If you compared the players used, you would also find that a lot of our guys have got more games, so they are highlighted to our eyes. By that I mean that the spread of games is more even where as better teams have used extra players once or twice, compared to us playing someone like Dawson for example, 6 times. When you look at each club's best 22, how are other clubs' bottom 15 developing? Are they better than some of our boys, who if everyone was fit wouldn't be getting games? Could we happily swap our worst 15 players for another teams worst 15 and be better?

 

[CarterS]

There definitely seems to be a shift towards keeping Leppa, or maybe the pro-Leppa camp are just being louder lately.

 

[MacMum]

I still think it's best for both parties to move Leppa on as cleanly as possible. He has had a while to implement some sort of game plan that can get us winning games and I don't think he has. Also if the media reports are to be believed he doesn't really discuss anything with his assistants besides Daly which is a huge problem IMO. Peppa comes across as a smart bloke and I'm sure he is but the results start to catch up with you no matter who you are club legend or not he has to go.

It's well past him being a club legend....it's now the fact he isn't being given a chance to finish the rebuild in circumstances that leave a lot to be desired, lack of facilities, lack of cash, lack of decent assist. coaches, lack of a decent draw, lack of being able to play our best players due to injury, lack of our leaders standing up when playing in so many games and god knows what else that might be going on behind the scenes...

..club legend or not, he has not been given a true chance.

I've nearly got to the stage that if Leppa goes, I will not renew my membership.....it is the only way the club will know we are unhappy with them.

If Leppa stays, I will gladly and excitedly sign up again and urge others to do the same.

This is about the club itself, and how they are running it.....and I as a member, at this stage, don't think they are doing a very good job of it.

 

[jackess]

And who are we comparing development with? Other clubs' full lists or just the teams they put on the field each week?
over the last 3 years, we have used more players than any other club.
These are the numbers for just over halfway this year (bracketed ladder position after round 15);
Adelaide 27 (5)

Geelong 29 (2)

Hawthorn 31 (1)

Sydney 31 (4)

West Coast 32 (8)

North Melbourne 33 (7)

Port Adelaide 33 (9)

Carlton 33 (14)

St Kilda 33 (13)

GWS 34 (3)

Melbourne 34 (10)

Richmond 34 (12)

Western Bulldogs 36 (6)

Fremantle 36 (16)

Brisbane 36 (17)

Essendon 36 (18)

Collingwood 38 (11)

Gold Coast 38 (15)

No coincidence that the top teams have used fewer players. This also impacts development. If you compared the players used, you would also find that a lot of our guys have got more games, so they are highlighted to our eyes. By that I mean that the spread of games is more even where as better teams have used extra players once or twice, compared to us playing someone like Dawson for example, 6 times. When you look at each club's best 22, how are other clubs' bottom 15 developing? Are they better than some of our boys, who if everyone was fit wouldn't be getting games? Could we happily swap our worst 15 players for another teams worst 15 and be better?

Ummmmm.... not sure what your point is.

Getting games into kids makes them develop faster. They should be developing faster in our team given they can get more games.

As far as I'm concerned with development; I think we need to aim for top 4 by 2020 which isn't unfair. Our kids are not developing quickly enough for us to get anywhere near this.

 

[Skoob]

There definitely seems to be a shift towards keeping Leppa, or maybe the pro-Leppa camp are just being louder lately.

I think the latter.
I think there is zero chance that he stays, and will be flabbergasted if that eventuates.
Whichever way it goes (he's going) the fact that the club has opted for an internal review of their own, stinks and the decision will be questioned. This to me suggests the decision has been made to move him on, because far fewer questions will be asked of the process, given most* believe he should go.

* By most, I mean the wider football public and media.

 

[M Malice]

And who are we comparing development with? Other clubs' full lists or just the teams they put on the field each week?
over the last 3 years, we have used more players than any other club.
These are the numbers for just over halfway this year (bracketed ladder position after round 15);
Adelaide 27 (5)

Geelong 29 (2)

Hawthorn 31 (1)

Sydney 31 (4)

West Coast 32 (8)

North Melbourne 33 (7)

Port Adelaide 33 (9)

Carlton 33 (14)

St Kilda 33 (13)

GWS 34 (3)

Melbourne 34 (10)

Richmond 34 (12)

Western Bulldogs 36 (6)

Fremantle 36 (16)

Brisbane 36 (17)

Essendon 36 (18)

Collingwood 38 (11)

Gold Coast 38 (15)

No coincidence that the top teams have used fewer players. This also impacts development. If you compared the players used, you would also find that a lot of our guys have got more games, so they are highlighted to our eyes. By that I mean that the spread of games is more even where as better teams have used extra players once or twice, compared to us playing someone like Dawson for example, 6 times. When you look at each club's best 22, how are other clubs' bottom 15 developing? Are they better than some of our boys, who if everyone was fit wouldn't be getting games? Could we happily swap our worst 15 players for another teams worst 15 and be better?

i have never been able to understand the often said "injuries are no excuse" statement. of course they are an excuse for performance. i do remember reading a stat once where the premier 9 times out of 10 has one of the lowest injury lists for the season.

 

[Skoob]

Ummmmm.... not sure what your point is.

Getting games into kids makes them develop faster. They should be developing faster in our team given they can get more games.

As far as I'm concerned with development; I think we need to aim for top 4 by 2020 which isn't unfair. Our kids are not developing quickly enough for us to get anywhere near this.

No, that would depend on what sort of games they are getting. Arguably a single first year player getting games alongside greats in Hawthorn's seniors is going to develop better/quicker than kids running around with 10 others of his age/quality in a losing team.

That said, development will come as they grow as a group, but they won't look as flash in the shorter term.

 

[Skoob]

i have never been able to understand the often said "injuries are no excuse" statement. of course they are and excuse for performance. i do remember reading a stat once where the premier 9 times out of 10 has one of the lowest injury lists for the season.

Yep, and I've mentioned before, it depends on who is injured, not just the numbers. Who replaces those injured players as well. More experienced teams have more experienced depth and we seem to manage to lose a good number of our best 22, not just our 38th best player.

 

[MacMum]

i have never been able to understand the often said "injuries are no excuse" statement. of course they are an excuse for performance. i do remember reading a stat once where the premier 9 times out of 10 has one of the lowest injury lists for the season.

Further to that, the amount of times I've read or heard it said that if you take out Hawks/Cats best 5-6 for example, they would not be as good......yet referred to us or lesser teams, it's no excuse!

Rubbish.

 

[jackess]

No, that would depend on what sort of games they are getting. Arguably a single first year player getting games alongside greats in Hawthorn's seniors is going to develop better/quicker than kids running around with 10 others of his age/quality in a losing team.

That said, development will come as they grow as a group, but they won't look as flash in the shorter term.

Should probably go back 3 years in time and tell Leppa.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Gonna be interesting if Rockliff stays at the club next year. If he was a divisive influence as some seem to believe, surely the club wouldn't ask him to sit in on the board meeting.

 

[M Malice]

Further to that, the amount of times I've read or heard it said that if you take out Hawks/Cats best 5-6 for example, they would not be as good......yet referred to us or lesser teams, it's no excuse!

Rubbish.

David King is a great one at that, heard him say injuries are no excuse for Leppa but in virtually the next breath he was all full of sympathy for the dogs injury concerns.

 

[SizeMatters]

No, that would depend on what sort of games they are getting. Arguably a single first year player getting games alongside greats in Hawthorn's seniors is going to develop better/quicker than kids running around with 10 others of his age/quality in a losing team.

That said, development will come as they grow as a group, but they won't look as flash in the shorter term.

I agree with you but its not always the case. Lions premiership years we had Shattock, Hadley, Cupido, Headland and McLaren off the top of my head. I think they all were highly rated youngsters.

 

[Bucking Beads]

We talk about needing better quality and more development coaches but we want to lump players not developing as we would like them to on Leppa. You are kidding me!!! I understand the reasoning behind Leppa being moved on. I can get over that even if I don't particularly agree with it. I won't get over Leppa being sacked and nobody else being held to account for where we are as a club. Be it senior players, other officials or board members. The problems we have weren't even created by Leppa yet he is about to be the fall guy.

 

[Viceregal]

Do we know what time the presentation is due or any idea how long it will go for?

 

[M Malice]

We talk about needing better quality and more development coaches but we want to lump players not developing as we would like them to on Leppa. You are kidding me!!! I understand the reasoning behind Leppa being moved on. I can get over that even if I don't particularly agree with it. I won't get over Leppa being sacked and nobody else being held to account for where we are as a club. Be it senior players, other officials or board members. The problems we have weren't even created by Leppa yet he is about to be the fall guy.

fixed up since Leppa came on board-
1) player retention.

still the bloody same-
1) piss poor facilities.
2) under resourced coaching department.
3) club debt.
4) still an AFL after thought.

 

[josephs_79]

fixed up since Leppa came on board-
1) player retention.

still the bloody same-
1) piss poor facilities.
2) under resourced coaching department.
3) club debt.
4) still an AFL after thought.

And only one of those things is fixable by a coach.....and it has been fixed.

 

[marooned]

fixed up since Leppa came on board-
1) player retention.

still the bloody same-
1) piss poor facilities.
2) under resourced coaching department.
3) club debt.
4) still an AFL after thought.

Not fixed up
1)Development
2)Game plan
3)competitiveness
4)Performance