Analysis Is Leppa the Right Man for the Job?

[alscotoz2]

The thread title reads like a rhetorical question to me now.

EDIT: The answer is no.

 

[jackess]

Agreed. Just not sure we agree on how best to judge that.

More to the point - given an increase in resources at the end of this year, how will you ever judge that?

It's the boards job.

 

[Skoob]

The really tough thing is that the board must protect/promote the club's business interests. That's what clubs are now, big business. Unfortunately, what is good for business, isn't necessarily conducive to long term football development, and vice versa.
Right now, Leppa is definitely good for business, and the question is, is this path right enough for football to justify the short to medium term damage to business?
Even if it is the right path in football terms, it might not be sustainable. If it is the right path, we may have to abandon it regardless, which could mean long term damage as we slip back into mediocrity and get stuck there for decades.

 

[M Malice]

i would like to slip up to mediocrity from deplorable Skoob.

 

[Skoob]

i would like to slip up to mediocrity from deplorable Skoob.

Haha. I did mean "back" as in "again", as opposed to the direction it is from here. The point of course is whichever way mediocrity is, I don't want us to get stuck there.

 

[MacMum]

I don't want Brett Montgomery at this club.

Did any of you see Robbo say on 360 that there was talk he had a falling out with Ratten....also McCartney. Thinks he has had a falling out now with Beveridge.

Do we want someone like that? I don't.

edit: I've put this in the wrong thread I think....move if necessary please mods. Sorry.

 

[Fossey]

The really tough thing is that the board must protect/promote the club's business interests. That's what clubs are now, big business. Unfortunately, what is good for business, isn't necessarily conducive to long term football development, and vice versa.
Right now, Leppa is definitely good for business, and the question is, is this path right enough for football to justify the short to medium term damage to business?
Even if it is the right path in football terms, it might not be sustainable. If it is the right path, we may have to abandon it regardless, which could mean long term damage as we slip back into mediocrity and get stuck there for decades.

Oh how I long for us to even reach mediocrity!!

 

[Fossey]

The thread title reads like a rhetorical question to me now.

EDIT: The answer is no.

Actually depends on what the "Job" actually is. What are we really expecting next year or two, irrespective of who the coach is? How many years is expected til we make finals? Some clear goals to which we can benchmark from where we ar right now would be good. If it is 5 years away then the Board should be honest with everyone (Mind you, I'll probably have taken up watching Syncronised Swiming as my sport by then ).

 

[Danny3]

Yep all of that is correct, thanks for the rin down though.

That is why coming into this season expectations from the board and most posters here was 6-8 wins (which is unusually low and a figure that would usually cost a coach their job in their 3rd year) what we have seen instead is regression of the playing group and one of the worst seasons dished up in the history or the AFL, with indervidual regression across the board and no signs of passion or the ability to turn it around .. thus the likelyhood of letting him go this far into his coaching tenure.

And the injury thing bought him time last year, realistically excuses are done with now as far a future planning goes.

That said, I am happy to give him the forth year of his contract, as we commited to that (i would not support and extention if his contract was up).. just lets be real, theres nothing brutal in the slightest about letting him go, if that's the path we choose.

Gee people have really short memories when it comes to footy.

MEL 2013 — 2W 20L 54.07% — two 100+ point losses
GWS 2013 — 1W 21L 50.97% — five 100+ point losses
GWS 2012 — 2W 20L 46.17% — five 100+ point losses
GC 2011 — 3W 19L 56.27% — three 100+ point losses

There's four worse than our current season, and that's only going back five years.

Coincidentally, two of those three sides are tracking alright now.

 

[Milk Steak]

Gee people have really short memories when it comes to footy.

MEL 2013 — 2W 20L 54.07% — two 100+ point losses
GWS 2013 — 1W 21L 50.97% — five 100+ point losses
GWS 2012 — 2W 20L 46.17% — five 100+ point losses
GC 2011 — 3W 19L 56.27% — three 100+ point losses

There's four worse than our current season, and that's only going back five years.

Coincidentally, two of those three sides are tracking alright now.

3 of those were expansion sides though with bulk amounts of first year players. Yes we've had a few this year,but not as many as they had if I recall correctly.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Gee people have really short memories when it comes to footy.

MEL 2013 — 2W 20L 54.07% — two 100+ point losses
GWS 2013 — 1W 21L 50.97% — five 100+ point losses
GWS 2012 — 2W 20L 46.17% — five 100+ point losses
GC 2011 — 3W 19L 56.27% — three 100+ point losses

There's four worse than our current season, and that's only going back five years.

Coincidentally, two of those three sides are tracking alright now.

And the only non-expansion side there had their coach sacked. Not a great example.

 

[lioninthesand]

Gee people have really short memories when it comes to footy.

MEL 2013 — 2W 20L 54.07% — two 100+ point losses
GWS 2013 — 1W 21L 50.97% — five 100+ point losses
GWS 2012 — 2W 20L 46.17% — five 100+ point losses
GC 2011 — 3W 19L 56.27% — three 100+ point losses

There's four worse than our current season, and that's only going back five years.

Coincidentally, two of those three sides are tracking alright now.

2 are expansion teams mate. There's always an * next to their first year stats. We are the worst side defensivly since the University Blues. Those sides are tracking nicely now, since getting new coaches though, not sure what your point is.. I think I like it?

 

[notliondown]

So we just sign him up for another 3 years and accept mediocrity? In the name of stability?

Because next year will be just like this one for him, so do we give him an open ended contract sort of thing?

Theres nothing sudden or embarrassing in my opinion - infact the 'reason' lies with those suggesting a coaching chang IMO.

What is embarrassing is this victim position we have taken, what ever chance of saving this group psychologically is basically gone now we are claiming to be in this 'hopeless position' thats beyond our control.

A good coach can turn us around, these excuses, especially those coming directly from the club are doing so much harm, we are hiding behind them, zero accountability.

Bob murphy said the coach in the sun in the football club universe, he described it as 'all important'.. everything else pales in comparison.. nothing is working.. nothing.

I said nothing about accepting mediocrity. Or signing him up for 3 years. Stop taking such leaps and putting words in my mouth. My post AGAIN questions the value of change - it does not endorse Leppa as you keep choosing to see it.

You choose to ignore other factors constantly. You choose to call circumstances & external factors, excuses. You place more weight on the ability or affect of the coach than players or any other aspect of the club situation. Great. Those are your choices, your bents, your points of view.

I don't agree.

We've had that discussion a million times too. Let's not do it a million and one.

 

[lioninthesand]

I said nothing about accepting mediocrity. Or signing him up for 3 years. Stop taking such leaps and putting words in my mouth. My post AGAIN questions the value of change - it does not endorse Leppa as you keep choosing to see it.

You choose to ignore other factors constantly. You choose to call circumstances & external factors, excuses. You place more weight on the ability or affect of the coach than players or any other aspect of the club situation. Great. Those are your choices, your bents, your points of view.

I don't agree.

We've had that discussion a million times too. Let's not do it a million and one.

the flip???.. that was up for like 2 seconds and then I deleted it - how'd you capture that? Agree mate, I soooo disagree with your opinion on this.. but I wrote half that post then decided not to post coz you're right its the same thing over and over, but left half of it there when responding to Danny accidently.. wasn't meant to go live as per edit above. But did.. does that mean I meant it.. or not? Sorry I'm a mess on the post.

Ps - I asked you if we should sign him up and accept mediocrity in light of your post? Didnt actually put words in your mouth Lol

 

[lioninthesand]

I said nothing about accepting mediocrity. Or signing him up for 3 years. Stop taking such leaps and putting words in my mouth. My post AGAIN questions the value of change - it does not endorse Leppa as you keep choosing to see it.

You choose to ignore other factors constantly. You choose to call circumstances & external factors, excuses. You place more weight on the ability or affect of the coach than players or any other aspect of the club situation. Great. Those are your choices, your bents, your points of view.

I don't agree.

We've had that discussion a million times too. Let's not do it a million and one.

the flip???.. that was up for like 2 seconds and then I deleted it - how'd you capture that? Agree mate, I soooo disagree with your opinion on this.. but I wrote half that post then decided not to post coz you're right its the same thing over and over, but left half of it there when responding to Danny accidently.. wasn't meant to go live as per edit above. But did.. does that mean I meant it.. or not? Sorry I'm a mess on the post.

Ps - I asked you if we should sign him up and accept mediocrity in light of your post? Didnt actually put words in your mouth Lol

Yet you don't see this?. Incredible luck.

 

[notliondown]

the flip???.. that was up for like 2 seconds and then I deleted it - how'd you capture that? Agree mate, I soooo disagree with your opinion on this.. but I wrote half that post then decided not to post coz you're right its the same thing over and over, but left half of it there when responding to Danny accidently.. wasn't meant to go live as per edit above. But did.. does that mean I meant it.. or not? Sorry I'm a mess on the post.

Ps - I asked you if we should sign him up and accept mediocrity in light of your post? Didnt actually put words in your mouth Lol

For what it's worth I had almost accepted the almost inevitable removal of Leppa weeks ago. Saturday night made me remove the almost part.

My posts did and continue to question the value of this endless cycle. The constant change and turmoil. The rerouting of our path like a psychotic GPS. We've gained nothing from it in the past and will continue to reap the same unless we make some deeper, fundamental changes at the club.

It's never really been about Leppa, although I feel he's been dealt a very harsh hand and as a loyal servant of our club I despise the level/nature of criticism and have defended him, its about this mindless, incessant, unrealistic, impossible desire for instant success.

You'll almost certainly get your wish.

But you'd bloody well better hope that the pot of gold that you seem so sure exists is actually there because if this all counts for nothing in 2 years time I will be beyond livid.

Theres been some absolutely ludicrous claims made in this thread about what someone else can or will or would do... if we tear ourselves apart again it had better be bloody worth it.

I'm sick of seeing my club embroiled in one saga after another. Enough is enough.

 

[lioninthesand]

For what it's worth I had almost accepted the almost inevitable removal of Leppa weeks ago. Saturday night made me remove the almost part.

My posts did and continue to question the value of this endless cycle. The constant change and turmoil. The rerouting of our path like a psychotic GPS. We've gained nothing from it in the past and will continue to reap the same unless we make some deeper, fundamental changes at the club.

It's never really been about Leppa, although I feel he's been dealt a very harsh hand and as a loyal servant of our club I despise the level/nature of criticism and have defended him, its about this mindless, incessant, unrealistic, impossible desire for instant success.

You'll almost certainly get your wish.

But you'd bloody well better hope that the pot of gold that you seem so sure exists is actually there because if this all counts for nothing in 2 years time I will be beyond livid.

Theres been some absolutely ludicrous claims made in this thread about what someone else can or will or would do... if we tear ourselves apart again it had better be bloody worth it.

I'm sick of seeing my club embroiled in one saga after another. Enough is enough.

My wish? And you always harping on about not putting words in your mouth. I really respect your opinion, i mean that, but you can be incredibly hypocritical at times, you hate in other posters what you do yourself in almost all circumstances.

I have never claimed a new coach will save us, I pointed put that recent history suggests it is possible.

Just as you'll be shattered if a new coach doesent work, others will be equally shattered if we continue on this trajectory under Leppa into next season only to have to sack him mid season, can you imagine the risk we take by doing that and where we will be as a club if this continues for another 12 months? The risk is 'entire board removed'.. 'afl administration'.. 'manergerial negligence' territory.. yet you talk about it as if its obvious and safe.

I think most posting on this has grown to be balanced, I find your claims of it being virtually impossible to turn it around.. just because we had 2 similar inexperienced, former club legends, cut from the same cloth, fail is similar ways.. to be slightly unbalanced.

Even though you claim I'm one eyed, I actually see reason in defense of Leppa, often.. and will still support his 4th year if we go that way.

What ever way we go, keeping him as a hell of a lot scarier prospect than handing the keys to someone new and thats something I feel you ignore.

You claim its blood letting, and baying for this and that.. what about the other option? What about if we keep him and he fails again next year?

 

[braddsey]

Gee people have really short memories when it comes to footy.

MEL 2013 — 2W 20L 54.07% — two 100+ point losses
GWS 2013 — 1W 21L 50.97% — five 100+ point losses
GWS 2012 — 2W 20L 46.17% — five 100+ point losses
GC 2011 — 3W 19L 56.27% — three 100+ point losses

There's four worse than our current season, and that's only going back five years.

Coincidentally, two of those three sides are tracking alright now.

To add to that - we'd be sitting on 1W and about 56% if Essendon weren't missing half their side.

I think we can expect Geelong to go all-out against us giving they're out of the top-4 on percentage, and could expect something similar against St Kilda considering how they've played since the bye. As it is we're going to finish with <60% and could be nudging 55%.

 

[notliondown]

My wish? And you always harping on about not putting words in your mouth. I really respect your opinion, i mean that, but you can be incredibly hypocritical at times, you hate in other posters what you do yourself in almost all circumstances.

I have never claimed a new coach will save us, I pointed put that recent history suggests it is possible.

Just as you'll be shattered if a new coach doesent work, others will be equally shattered if we continue on this trajectory under Leppa into next season only to have to sack him mid season, can you imagine the risk we take by doing that and where we will be as a club if this continues for another 12 months? The risk is 'entire board removed'.. 'afl administration'.. 'manergerial negligence' territory.. yet you talk about it as if its obvious and safe.

I think most posting on this has grown to be balanced, I find your claims of it being virtually impossible to turn it around.. just because we had 2 similar inexperienced, former club legends, cut from the same cloth, fail is similar ways.. to be slightly unbalanced.

Even though you claim I'm one eyed, I actually see reason in defense of Leppa, often.. and will still support his 4th year if we go that way.

What ever way we go, keeping him as a hell of a lot scarier prospect than handing the keys to someone new and thats something I feel you ignore.

You claim its blood letting, and baying for this and that.. what about the other option? What about if we keep him and he fails again next year?

Wow. Really?

You've been one of the most ardent supporters for placing our current ladder position almost entirely at the feet of the coach from start. This recent "one foot in each camp" nonsense where you say "I'm happy for him to stay" followed almost every time by a statement as to why he shouldn't is more about appearing to be moderate rather than an actual change of position.

Heres one example just from this post. Theres plenty more to chose from.

Even though you claim I'm one eyed, I actually see reason in defense of Leppa, often.. and will still support his 4th year if we go that way.

What ever way we go, keeping him as a hell of a lot scarier prospect than handing the keys to someone new and thats something I feel you ignore.

I've never said it's safe to keep him. I've never said things were impossible to fix. You've made that ridiculous claim a number of times now. You keep saying things that are simply not true and have never been said.

Why would I keep supporting this club if things were impossible to fix? I may be stupid but I'm not that intent on draining my life force. Yet again you see what you choose to see.

I have said over and over and over that a change of coach alone is not the answer. There has to be more. And the pro's and con's have to be weighed up to make sure the pain is worth the gain.

For the first time in years some of that "more" has a chance of being addressed this off season. Extra staff and funding will go a long way to addressing development and structural issues if we are judicious and smart about how we go about it.

So the next step in that discussion simply asks the question... if those changes benefit a new coach surely they would benefit the current one? And if that's the case then do we really need a public beheading?

The sad part is, nothing will change as we have gone backwards this year, we will have no momentum going into '17 - we will continue to be belted week after week in the first 10 weeks.. and he will be sacked mid season, we will lose young players and it will demolish what is left our clubs sprit.

You seem pretty sure about the course things will take in keeping him.

Its also the 'risk' they take in leaving him there.

If by some miricle he gets a bounce out of the playing group next year, that will be great.. but if all reasonable signs and tanigible trajectorys continue on his watch, it is actually managerial negligence..

Who are you trying to convince? I knew half way through last year there was no way Leppa was going to work out.

In fact you know it it seems.

Its his third year, nothing remotely 'brutal' about a decision to let him go. Keeping him would be the closer decision to 'brutal'.. in terms of 'brutally risky on players and supporters' .. what ever we decide we can find a way to live with.

These posts are your more recent moderate ones. You're position is clear, despite the softening of your language. And that's ok. I don't have any issue at all with that. You're entitled to it. There's far more of you on here certain that a new coach will solve our problems than the other way according to the poll so there's no need to hide from that position.

But if you are going to keep quoting and replying to my posts then understand that I'm going to keep calling you out. (EDIT -Actually I won't. I'm done with the tit for tat).

I've accepted that we most likely will axe another coach. What I struggle to accept, is whether there will be any extra benefit in doing it given the changes that will occur (that you place far less value on) anyway. It's really that simple.

 

[Milk Steak]

The last page of this thread

 

[notliondown]

View attachment 275453
The last page of this thread

Yep... you are right. My apologies. I'm done.

 

[MacMum]

So the next step in that discussion simply asks the question... if those changes benefit a new coach surely they would benefit the current one? And if that's the case then do we really need a public beheading?

This one question stood out to me. It's a good one.

The media frenzy has been annoying me from the start. I want changes too, but I want them because WE think they are necessary, not because the media think so.

If the club can get the required support with well credentialed assistant coaches, decent facilities etc, then perhaps we SHOULD be letting Leppa see out his contract.

As I've said before, the club must be strong against ALL outside influences or it makes a mockery of their Believe and Belong motto.

..again, as I've said before, I'm so torn, but we must do the right thing for all concerned with the club........not what the media think we should do.

 

[Tassie4ever]

I think anyone who expects a new coach to instantly change our fortunes is deluded.

No matter who we bring in, the re-building will take years. The reality is that many of our current playing list will have to go as they are just aren't up to it, so we'll have to bring others on board and develop them. Say a minimum of 3 years.

Obviously, whoever takes over the reins will have to do so pre-draft etc so they can put a stamp on the sort of player we most need.

My fear is that if we don't reasonably quickly arrest our decline the few good players we retain will go elsewhere. Why wouldn't they.

 

[13Beast]

So very torn on this issue.

While some dismiss other factors either completely or at least greatly diminish the role they play in our current predicament, my gut keeps telling me that we are where we are, being as much due to circumstance and the AFL cycle as it is coaching.

I just can't get excited about repeating history because of the baying of supporters and media. Blood letting at the club has become as important as the game itself. If we can't win on field, we'll show them who's boss by creating upheaval off it. It's actually an embarrassment to have these witch hunts so regularly either by design or default.

3 years ago we started a full list rebuild. 34 new players. Our 2 most skillful recruits have played less than half the available games. I believe we had our best team on the field twice in that time. We have the youngest age profile of any team, with an experience one to match and the removal of Rog from that drops us even further. Factor a draw from hell and a revolving door to the injury ward, and while all of us are disappointed, a dispassionate view probably says we could have expected little more as the year ground on.

Already we know that next year we'll have new faces. New assistants, there's talk of a much needed psych, and who knows, maybe the review brings new management and even a new coach. 1 article that I know of has claimed a rift between playing group and coach, and this thread went into melt down. Without confirmation of that fact of any kind and at least some evidence to the contrary, obituaries have been written and eulogies read.

I honestly don't think this year would have been much different regardless of coach. I accept others will disagree. People paid more and far smarter than me constantly state they honestly don't know if Leppa can actually coach. On that we agree.

Where I waver is the pain vs gain ratio.

We have some hard questions to ask at the end of this season.

Have we created an environment that is soft on players?
Do we expect, or actually demand less, of our players than other clubs?
Are we paralysed by fear of a player lead revolt or exodus?
How do we self motivate the playing group to demand more of themselves?
Will we be able to replicate the structure of a successful clubs football dept even with increased spending given our struggle for experienced personnel?
Can we attract a level of competence off the field commensurate with our desires on field?

If we can't be honest enough and brave enough to answer those questions I can't see what changing a coach will achieve. Deck chairs = Titanic.

All I could predict is that if we're not, we may as well start the new thread "who will be our coach in 2020?" right now.

Great post mate. Reading it made me think of something...how about giving the new incoming coach (if indeed Leppa is gone) a clear mandate to swing the axe and chop/cut/trade ANY player, regardless of seniority/"credits in the bank", whom is deemed to not be putting in the required effort, and/or a less than professional/unsatisfactory approach to training/preparation etc?

I agree that something must be done with any new incoming coach, as undoubtedly a large portion of the blame to date no doubt rests with some of the players. We can hypothesize all we want who those players are, but any incoming coach will know pretty quickly once in the club and taking over the reins.

I sincerely hope they are endorsed by the board/powers that be, to make sweeping changes (if required) to build a far stronger, more professional and success-oriented culture at our club than the current malaise we are in now.

 

[Forward We Go]

For what it's worth I had almost accepted the almost inevitable removal of Leppa weeks ago. Saturday night made me remove the almost part.

My posts did and continue to question the value of this endless cycle. The constant change and turmoil. The rerouting of our path like a psychotic GPS. We've gained nothing from it in the past and will continue to reap the same unless we make some deeper, fundamental changes at the club.

It's never really been about Leppa, although I feel he's been dealt a very harsh hand and as a loyal servant of our club I despise the level/nature of criticism and have defended him, its about this mindless, incessant, unrealistic, impossible desire for instant success.

You'll almost certainly get your wish.

But you'd bloody well better hope that the pot of gold that you seem so sure exists is actually there because if this all counts for nothing in 2 years time I will be beyond livid.

Theres been some absolutely ludicrous claims made in this thread about what someone else can or will or would do... if we tear ourselves apart again it had better be bloody worth it.

I'm sick of seeing my club embroiled in one saga after another. Enough is enough.

Fantastic post and well said. I agree with almost everything you have said and feel gutted with the lack of support from some of our so called supporters who show zero respect for Leppa as a true champion of the club. (Same goes for what was said about Vossy not all that long ago) Wish they would go away and follow another club/sport.
In saying that, I still think Leppa should be given another year with the appropriate tools of the trade instead of bargain basement resources. After that, measure him and make any changes based on a year you expect improvement to be seen.