Is our midfield now the best in the comp?

[tommyk72]

One other thought... given that many people have Bailey and Hale as out two main rucks in 2011, is there any chance that Renouf might be turned into that tall defender we need? There was a fair bit of talk about this a few seasons ago, but that seems to ahve cooled considerably now.

 

[Brant]

No way Renouf would be played as a KPD.

Not quick enough to run with a FF & doesn't have the tank. Not reliable by hand or foot & would burn us with ball use.

Worst of all it would mean playing 3 ruckman in a time when other clubs are maximizing run by effectively playing only 1.5 rucks.

Should never happen - but then again, we should never have our CHF on the back flank & FF on the wing either so who the hell knows...

 

[sgbn77]

I want to see Bailey succeed as much as the next person. He would genuinely improve our midfield.

But come on people, I know its December and all, but he goes for a maximum output of 1 game per season, to 22+ all of a sudden, does he?

As far as I'm concerned, until proven otherwise, our Rucks are Renouf and Hale. Bailey is a bonus, but no more than 8-12 games, for mine.

 

[Hawkzzz]

After round 7 and crisis mode, I think the coaches main aim was to at least be very competitive. They ditched the game plan for a more contested and accountable plan.

We've always been 12th to 16th in contested footy (including our GF year), so I think it was good from an educational perspective. We finished 1st in contested footy from round 7 to 22.

I think fans forget that we are only the second team to make the finals after this disastrous start. (Fitzroy being the other). I also think it was very important for our players' self belief that they could cut it with the top sides.

Those that think we won't modify this game style will be pleasantly surprised next yr. I think our coaches and players learned an enormous amount in 2010. We will keep an uncompromising and accountable style, but we will be much more prepared/drilled to counter attack in 2011.

 

[Rockford]

These are the Top4 Best midfield teams in the comp

Our Midfielders:

RR Luke Hodge 26yo 173 games
RV Brad Sewell 26 123 games
C Sam Mitchell 28 174 games
LW Shaun Burgoyne 28 174 games
RW Jordan Lewis 24 125 games

Geelong
J.Corey
J.Selwood
J.Bartel
J.Kelly
C.Ling

Western Bulldogs
A.Cooney
M.Boyd
D.Cross
R.Griffin
C.Ward

Collingwood
D.Swan
S.Pendlebury
L.Ball
A.Didak
S.Wellingham

Our midfield is definitly the best! Ablett left geelong, plus they have an ageing list.

Which season's form are you basing this on? Not 2010, surely.

Off the top of my head I'd have the Saints, Freo (especially with the Sandilands factor) and probably North and the Demons ahead of the Hawks at the moment. I'm not saying all of the individuals in these midfields are necessarily better skilled than those in the Hawks midfield, but they function better as a unit given their respective gameplans.

Also, not that it's relevant (I'm not claiming that Geelong's midfield is the best in the comp) but if those lists are supposed to be representative of what the core midfield units will look like in 2011 then, for the Cats, you need more Chapman and Varcoe.

 

[Ordovician]

Our midfield is (by far) the best at turning a 50/50 contest into a forward 50 entry.

Our issue starts before then.

In 2008 we had Taylor and Campbell, both capable negating ruckmen, and Taylor one of the better tap rucks in the league. They were #1 and #2 in the league for the lowest % of opposition direct taps. Our onball brigade smashed it.

In 2010 we had Renouf and Skipper (in part) - both of whom were outside the top 20 for % of opposition direct taps. Our onball brigade were consistently disadvantaged and chasing tail.

So why did they ditch Taylor if he was such a good tap ruckman and the number 1 ruck negator?

Why did this count for so little if our midfield was structured to play to negating ruckmen?

Is Hale a great negating ruckman?

It seems like they have made their own bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Our midfield is (by far) the best at turning a 50/50 contest into a forward 50 entry.

Our issue starts before then.

In 2008 we had Taylor and Campbell, both capable negating ruckmen, and Taylor one of the better tap rucks in the league. They were #1 and #2 in the league for the lowest % of opposition direct taps. Our onball brigade smashed it.

In 2010 we had Renouf and Skipper (in part) - both of whom were outside the top 20 for % of opposition direct taps. Our onball brigade were consistently disadvantaged and chasing tail.

Clarkson had a choice. Disband a premiership winning midfield setup due to player availability/ability in the ruck - or battle on regardless and hope our rucks improve.

For the most part, he kept the premiership winning structure - this just meant when the opposition had a clear tap we were completely out of position.

The other major challenge he faced (I'll call it the corridor/boundary conundrum ) was brought about as a flow-on affect from this. We weren't winning in the middle, so were reliant on rebound from defence much more than in 08. However we didn't have the 6 or so runners in peak form (Crawford, Bateman, Young, McGlynn, Osborne, Rioli and even Williams played that forward running wing/HFF role) - instead we were lucky to put 2 on the park. No run meant no open field - playing attacking football from defence just led to turnovers.

So we reverted to the "Boundary", perhaps the most 'traditional' method of attacking when outgunned. Our whole gameplan from this point was about keeping the game close enough that our star individuals could win the game themselves and in many cases (Rioli, Franklin, Hodge, Mitchell esp) they did so - but no-one is good enough to do it every week.

I said it before, but adding a fit (unaffected by injury history) Bailey to our midfield makes it a clear #1. Without it, we are only 3-6. A genuine class ruckman is the difference between our setups working in our favour, or playing catchup every game.

This I think is spot on. It reflected in our inability to attack.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Ok I'm going to play devils advocate here and I know it won't be popular with you good folk on the Hawthorn board.

Hawthorns midfield is middle of the road. Sam Mitchell and Chance Bateman are both on the wane, Burgoyne isn't the player he once was ( though he was showing good signs at the end of 2010 ), Jordan Lewis is a B grader, a bad decision maker and lacks discipline. Young is in and out of the side due to ongoing injury problems so can't get any continuity into his game, whilst Sewell is only half the player he was prior to the Matty Lloyd bump. And even though he is electrifying, Rioli only touches at 14 or so times a game so doesn't damage teams too much.

There is a reason why we have been average the last two seasons and our midfield problems are a massive part of it ( as well as our complete lack of size and run in the back line ). Combine that with an erratic, lazy forward in Jarryd Roughead and a coach who seems intent on turning the best KPF in the game, in Franklin, into a winger and there you have it. Some pretty big problems. Good teams with very good midfields don't lose 6 in a row and get done by bottom 4 sides like the WCE and Bombers.

As much as I love the HFC, I think we are in for some pretty lean years over the next decade.

 

[Ordovician]

Ok I'm going to play devils advocate here and I know it won't be popular with you good folk on the Hawthorn board.

Hawthorns midfield is middle of the road. Sam Mitchell and Chance Bateman are both on the wane, Burgoyne isn't the player he once was ( though he was showing good signs at the end of 2010 ), Jordan Lewis is a B grader, a bad decision maker and lacks discipline. Young is in and out of the side due to ongoing injury problems so can't get any continuity into his game, whilst Sewell is only half the player he was prior to the Matty Lloyd bump. And even though he is electrifying, Rioli only touches at 14 or so times a game so doesn't damage teams too much.

There is a reason why we have been average the last two seasons and our midfield problems are a massive part of it ( as well as our complete lack of size and run in the back line ). Combine that with an erratic, lazy forward in Jarryd Roughead and a coach who seems intent on turning the best KPF in the game, in Franklin, into a winger and there you have it. Some pretty big problems. Good teams with very good midfields don't lose 6 in a row and get done by bottom 4 sides like the WCE and Bombers.

As much as I love the HFC, I think we are in for some pretty lean years over the next decade.

You forgot not having a third tall marking leading forward goal kicker!

We never found a replacement for Williams who helped win us the flag, and Boyle who really stretched the opposition defences. Both of these players were more than useful and we both were quite reliable set shots on goal. They gave us extra avenues to goal rather than the predictable kick it to Buddy or Roughy, watch them drop the mark and then see the opposition defenders run away with the ball.

With a forward line based purely on two talls and some defensive smalls (who play way up field) and some slow mediums (Lewis) makes it way to easy for the defenders to double or triple team our talls.

We need a third tall mobile marking forward to spread the defence. Of course we have an ideal candidate for this role in Shoey, but the brains trust at the club who specialise in banging square pegs into round holes, have other plans for him!

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

ordi, that was before the AFL changed the interpretation of ruck contests after our GF win in 08 - which combined with us not having a ruck coach at all, then having Newton simply following Ischenko's plan, then having the AFL release a video to umpires on what is an infringement (featuring the 08 premiership ruck duo) we saw a massive swing in the way the ruck contest was umpired.

Combined with the decline in Campbell due to injury, and Clarkson's preference for a more mobile option in Renouf - our advantage in the ruck was lost.

We either need to fix the ruck (Bailey fit), or fix the midfield (trade Sam/Sewell/Lewis/Hodge) because at the moment we are half of one method, and half another.

 

[That's deliberate]

Clearly Hawthorn have the best Talent in the league with very little deficiencies. Talk all you like about our defence, fact is our game plan does nothing for the careers and reputations of the guys laying their.

2010 we had one of the worst if not 'the' worst game plan in the history of the game. how we won 12 games is beyond me and due to the "cattle" on the park.

Reference: Collingwood limited talent, simple game plan...Kick it long play to your strengths....

Long and get numbers to the ball.

Geelong had the best talent in the league last year, game fell apart bcos coach was too arrogant and wanted to persist with handball against a team that new they would run at them held back and loaded players behind the ball. Whne they got it they kicked it long where all the space was at..

Game over

 

[kidneyhawks]

why dont we ask this question after the 2011 grand final

 

[PeeRod]

why dont we ask this question after the 2011 grand final

Agreed. Talent alone doesnt win flags. Let's wait until we've got something to gloat about.

 

[themarkedman72]

many salient points made here regarding the lack of beauty in our game plan, its long term effectiveness throughout the season etc etc.
HOwever Clarkson being a genius has once again turned a loss into a win by playing to the strengths of our playing group.

The second half of the 2010 season showed this to great effect in that we won games not by chance toss of a coin (With all due respect to my latin acquainted brother in gold and brown arms Ordo) but by putting ourselves in a position to win.

2011 see's Our determined in and under mids being joined by some pacy outside types and if Bailey plays and roughead is moved to CHB we will be able to perform a Geelong like rise to utter dominance this season.

However I am thinking that in reality top four this year maybe a GF loss at best but 2012 we will destroy all. Unbeatable and worth putting money on for the flag.

I absolutely think Litherland is a potential CHB as well.
We recruited very well.

 

[Consumed]

Good thread, but some issues in interpreting how a midfield functions.

Most posters have focused on the assumption that a midfield only participates in the initial ball-up scenario. Very few have identified that a game consists of moving the ball between the arcs of backline and forward line.

While the big name Hawk midfielders may have an advantage at a ball-up, we have serious deficiencies when zoning, and transitioning the ball from the backline forward. These issues also occur when we lose possession in the forward line and the opposition is transitioning the ball.

Our predominantly one paced midfield suffers during these transitioning phases as highlighted during the 2010 season. Not all of this was due to bad coaching or a bad game plan.

Hawthorn lagged behind Saints, Melbourne, Collingwood and others in this transitional element, and it is here that we must concern ourselves. If our midfield is to capitalize on their skill, they must work harder in this area.

 

[Roughies Boys]

Smith onto a wing

 

[Brant]

Smith onto a wing

Forward Flank for me Moose - especially in his 1st season.

Run & carry had been a huge issue for us & that is 80% of a wingman's job. We really can't afford to have a wingman go missing during games or learn to adapt to the pace of AFL in what has of late been a weak position.

IMO Smith starts off on a FF & learns the intricacies, team disciplines & game plan from there before moving onto the wing later in the year or maybe next year. Until then I have Youngy, Bateman, Lewis & maybe Birch running the wings.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[cradle of filth]

I think our midfield is potentially one of the best, but it never really seems to work out the way we want it to.

Sam Mitchell, Chance Bateman and Brad Sewell are all coming off average seasons. Shaun Burgoyne and Clinton Young started to string some good games together by the end, but were injured for most of 2010.

Cyril Rioli is becoming a great on baller but he isn't there yet. I'm not sure that Xavier Ellis will ever become the star that a No.3 draft pick should be.

I might get shouted down for this, but personally, i don't think Jordan Lewis is nearly as good as we sometimes make him out to be. He's another that was very patchy in 2010.

So our only great midfielder at the moment is Luke Hodge. That sounds very far from the best midfield in the competition to me.

Again, there's potential there, but jeez, they're mucking around a bit aren't they?

 

[PeeRod]

I think our midfield is potentially one of the best, but it never really seems to work out the way we want it to.

Sam Mitchell, Chance Bateman and Brad Sewell are all coming off average seasons. Shaun Burgoyne and Clinton Young started to string some good games together by the end, but were injured for most of 2010.

Cyril Rioli is becoming a great on baller but he isn't there yet. I'm not sure that Xavier Ellis will ever become the star that a No.3 draft pick should be.

I might get shouted down for this, but personally, i don't think Jordan Lewis is nearly as good as we sometimes make him out to be. He's another that was very patchy in 2010.

So our only great midfielder at the moment is Luke Hodge. That sounds very far from the best midfield in the competition to me.

Again, there's potential there, but jeez, they're mucking around a bit aren't they?

I think you're a little unfair on Mitchell. Hodge's obvious efforts put a shadow over Mitchells work horse like game a little. He's just not flashy. Sewell definitely under performed and Bateman clearly was playing a role that he shouldn't have been. As for Jordan I think it was a mistake that he lost all that weight pre-season. He seemed to lose his edge too. Another reason why I'd like to see him play forward more because he is a great kick. As for Cyril. Would prefer another year up forward for him. He would play a far more important role there then through the middle next year. Ablett played about 5 seasons up forward before being released into the midfield.

 

[Beandip]

I really like Cyril up forward also, I think if we can modify our game plan to just kick it long into the forward line (just like rd22 against Collingwood) having Rioli there would be a god send, his pace and pressure would just be terrifying for defenders, especially when combined with the fact that Buddy and Rough are both big strong, fast and able to crumb also! Defenders nightmare!

Also I think, while Cyril is fast and magical, he has a pretty light frame, which I think is more likely to turn inside 50s into goals, rather than get clearances into the forward 50 against big bodies. I would prefer to look to Mitchell to get back his clearance efficiency, Sewell and Lewis to increase their work rate, and the wingers to have more impact etc.

This said, obviously the solution is to funnel our money into cloning Cyrils...... *the possibilities.... 22 Cyrils.....*

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

My problem with Cyril up forward is that our on-ball brigade look really slow and get killed once the ball spills into open space.

Given that, I would like to see him start up forward but have spells on the ball.

Re Lewis, not sure his drop in form was due to the lost weight or the gameplan. He seems to me to be a player that likes to find space and be a link man, a la Dal Santo, rather than be forced to run from one end of the ground to the other, to help set-up goals and then get back to assist our under-sized defence.

Hmmm...

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Full preseasons from burger and Sewell will go a long way to improving us.

 

[PeeRod]

My problem with Cyril up forward is that our on-ball brigade look really slow and get killed once the ball spills into open space.

Given that, I would like to see him start up forward but have spells on the ball.

Re Lewis, not sure his drop in form was due to the lost weight or the gameplan. He seems to me to be a player that likes to find space and be a link man, a la Dal Santo, rather than be forced to run from one end of the ground to the other, to help set-up goals and then get back to assist our under-sized defence.

Hmmm...

Yep I definitely think Cyril should rotate through the forward line and on ball until he's ready for a solid on ball role or we have someone that can play his pitbull type role.

Is Jordan fast enough to find space and play the link up role?

 

[SDPremiers2011]

Full preseasons from burger and Sewell will go a long way to improving us.

Totally agree. Lets hope they can both stay injury free and rip into the season.

 

[mattyflux]

I really like Cyril up forward also, I think if we can modify our game plan to just kick it long into the forward line (just like rd22 against Collingwood) having Rioli there would be a god send, his pace and pressure would just be terrifying for defenders, especially when combined with the fact that Buddy and Rough are both big strong, fast and able to crumb also! Defenders nightmare!

Also I think, while Cyril is fast and magical, he has a pretty light frame, which I think is more likely to turn inside 50s into goals, rather than get clearances into the forward 50 against big bodies. I would prefer to look to Mitchell to get back his clearance efficiency, Sewell and Lewis to increase their work rate, and the wingers to have more impact etc.

This said, obviously the solution is to funnel our money into cloning Cyrils...... *the possibilities.... 22 Cyrils.....*

Whilst I understand what you are saying, in that our forward line looks far more potent with Cyril down there (which it is) I have to diagree with you on this one. For me adding Cyril to the midfield mix adds an x factor and much needed pace to our midfield. We all seem to be in agreeance that we were far too slow through there last season. His clearance work is outstanding, he has super quick hands, plays the link role well, rarely gets caught with the ball and is creative when he has it. Imagine the doubt in Matthew Boyd or Jobe Watson's mind knowing they may have Cyril on their hammer whenever they win the ball through the middle. Imagine the nightmare for opposition coaches, i mean who do they tag? Hodge, Cyril or Burgoyne??? He will still kick goals too from the midfield i believe which is something we have lacked for a while. For those who say he doesnt get enough of the footy this will bring him into the game more and I would expect his possession count to increase considerably if played more on the ball.

Ideally he would rotate through forward and midfield. Maybe in a 3 way swap with Burgoyne and Bateman (or something like that). That way he will play 80% of game time. 50% of which is spent playing in the middle.