Is Puopolo underrated?

[Gone Critical]

I would like to point out a few other features re my point about an average player looking better when his team has success.

Again I say I like Poppy because he is a heart and soul trier. History wouldn't be as kind to him if he were not playing in such a successful team. His finals record over the last 4 years, where Hawks have played in 4 GFs and won 3 flags, is a case in point. I looked this up a while ago when posting on the Pies board making an argument that Blair and Poppy were very similar in ability and output. Before I looked at his stats I would have said he was a really solid finals player who contributed a lot over these campaigns.

Stats, and I know they can lie, say something else. As a small forward in the last 4 GFs he has kicked one goal (2014 when Hawks kicked 21). In one GF he has had more than 10 possessions (2015). In the four finals series, where he has played either 3 or 4 games, there was only one year where he kicked more than 1 goal (2014, 3 goals). He has kicked a total of 6 goals in those 13 finals matches where his team has won 11 times.

I know stats don't tell the whole story but I was surprised how poor he has been statistically and think he has probably been spared scruitiny because the team has gone so well through these times. If Hawks were losing finals through these years more attention would have been payed to Poppy's output. He plays his role for his side and the role is one where his output isn't so important as sacrificing for the team, 1%s, chase and pressure. If he didn't have the large output of follow forwards around him that he has had at Hawthorn perceptions of his role and ability would change. Like Blair he would find you go from being a bit of a team darling when success is being had to a whipping boy and fan target when success dries up.

 

[hk89]

Stats, and I know they can lie, say something else. As a small forward in the last 4 GFs he has kicked one goal (2014 when Hawks kicked 21). In one GF he has had more than 10 possessions (2015). In the four finals series, where he has played either 3 or 4 games, there was only one year where he kicked more than 1 goal (2014, 3 goals). He has kicked a total of 6 goals in those 13 finals matches where his team has won 11 times.

Small forwards have traditionally fared pretty poorly in finals, especially grand finals. Without checking the stats, I don't think Breust has been much better than Poppy in grand final output, and I rate Breust as a much more talented player than Poppy. It is a testament to how good Rioli is that he's had some decent grand finals now, but statistically his finals output doesn't blow you away either. I wouldn't rate any small forward based on a heavy weighting of their grand final output.

Edit: Ok , Breust got 3 goals in the GF last year, but 0 and 1 in the other 2 flags. His 6 against Adelaide this year somewhat skews his average, but other than those 6 , and the 3 in the GF last year he has otherwise never kicked more than 1 goal in a final during our 3-peat finals campaigns (had a decent 2012 finals series though). So that's 10 finals in 3 years with 8 of them producing 1 goal or less. It is tough to be a small forward during finals time, even if you are a very good one.

 

[Gone Critical]

Small forwards have traditionally fared pretty poorly in finals, especially grand finals. Without checking the stats, I don't think Breust has been much better than Poppy in grand final output, and I rate Breust as a much more talented player than Poppy. It is a testament to how good Rioli is that he's had some decent grand finals now, but statistically his finals output doesn't blow you away either. I wouldn't rate any small forward based on a heavy weighting of their grand final output.

Edit: Ok , Breust got 3 goals in the GF last year, but 0 and 1 in the other 2 flags. His 6 against Adelaide this year somewhat skews his average, but other than those 6 , and the 3 in the GF last year he has otherwise never kicked more than 1 goal in a final during our 3-peat finals campaigns (had a decent 2012 finals series though). So that's 10 finals in 3 years with 8 of them producing 1 goal or less. It is tough to be a small forward during finals time, even if you are a very good one.

I agree it's tough on small forwards in finals. However if your team fails they become cannon fodder for criticism. Think of Ballantyne and Milne for instance. Their standing in the game has been bought into question because they didn't do well in finals. That is kinda my point. If your team succeeds players escape criticism and their standing goes up. Poppy has benefited from that like many players in the past.

As to Breust I think he is a different kettle of fish. An underrated star and a real reason behind Hawks rise to the top. Similar to Gunston. It's these types that enhance the reputations of the Poppy's and Strattons. Breust in the 12 finals games I mentioned has kicked 20 goals compared to Poppy's 6. Averages 1.7 g/game which is just under his career average. He doesn't drop off production much come September

 

[Gydafud]

Sort of reminds me of Shannon Byrnes for some reason. There, tries, does his job, and reaps success without being an out and out superstar by any means.

 

[hk89]

As to Breust I think he is a different kettle of fish. An underrated star and a real reason behind Hawks rise to the top. Similar to Gunston. It's these types that enhance the reputations of the Poppy's and Strattons. Breust in the 12 finals games I mentioned has kicked 20 goals compared to Poppy's 6. Averages 1.7 g/game which is just under his career average. He doesn't drop off production much come September

Not quite as much as Poppy, but when you consider that 9 of those 20 goals came in 2 games, that is 11 goals from 10 other finals which looks a little less impressive. You are also comparing an offensive forward to a defensive forward, so Breust is expected to score more. Poppy can score less and still be deemed to have fulfilled his role.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I agree it's tough on small forwards in finals. However if your team fails they become cannon fodder for criticism. Think of Ballantyne and Milne for instance. Their standing in the game has been bought into question because they didn't do well in finals. That is kinda my point. If your team succeeds players escape criticism and their standing goes up. Poppy has benefited from that like many players in the past.

As to Breust I think he is a different kettle of fish. An underrated star and a real reason behind Hawks rise to the top. Similar to Gunston. It's these types that enhance the reputations of the Poppy's and Strattons. Breust in the 12 finals games I mentioned has kicked 20 goals compared to Poppy's 6. Averages 1.7 g/game which is just under his career average. He doesn't drop off production much come September

I'm surprised that you put Stratton in there. Has finished 4th and 6th in the B&F in two of the last 3 premiership years, and 9th in 2012. He's no slouch.

 

[Gone Critical]

Not quite as much as Poppy, but when you consider that 9 of those 20 goals came in 2 games, that is 11 goals from 10 other finals which looks a little less impressive. You are also comparing an offensive forward to a defensive forward, so Breust is expected to score more. Poppy can score less and still be deemed to have fulfilled his role.

Yeah agree with what you say. I would say Poppy did his role in the finals even if stats suggest he was quiet. That's my point in a way. He is dependable and does a role. That role is easier in a successful team. His reputation is bunked up because of the team he plays in. Plat a small forward role in a bottom team and its much more difficult to avoid criticism. Poppy would clearly get games in any team but wouldn't be seen to be as good a player as he is viewed now.

 

[HairyO]

He wouldn't have kicked 29 goals playing for a bottom 6 side.

Without all the competition from the other great Hawthorn forwards he could well kick 50 in a bad team.

Lonie and Billings play ahead of him at StKilda.

Is that why St Kilda came 15th?

This thread has also shown how Hawthorn-centric some Hawthorn supporters are in thinking that other sides don't have role players that they'd rate higher than Puopolo.

I love these threads. Its great seeing just how few good players Hawthorn apparently have. Doesnt say much about the rest of the comp. Maybe I should switch to watching the NEAFL.

 

[Gone Critical]

I'm surprised that you put Stratton in there. Has finished 4th and 6th in the B&F in two of the last 3 premiership years, and 9th in 2012. He's no slouch.

Yeah but he is a role player and still benefits from the support around him. Play around champs like Hodge, Lake, Birchall and Burgoyne and you will automatically be elevated. I would see Stratton as a good ordinary backman, maybe a lesser Nick Maxwell. Like Stratton Maxwell had plenty of high B&F finishes in successful years and was an excellent role player. B&F top 10 finishes often go with these guys because the match committee love what they bring.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeah but he is a role player and still benefits from the support around him. Play around champs like Hodge, Lake, Birchall and Burgoyne and you will automatically be elevated. I would see Stratton as a good ordinary backman, maybe a lesser Nick Maxwell. Like Stratton Maxwell had plenty of high B&F finishes in successful years and was an excellent role player. B&F top 10 finishes often go with these guys because the match committee love what they bring.

Can't agree with him being a good ordinary backman, at all.
Plays on talls, plays on smalls, beats his opponent weekly, but doesn't get the fanfare of others.

 

[QuietB]

I agree it's tough on small forwards in finals. However if your team fails they become cannon fodder for criticism. Think of Ballantyne and Milne for instance. Their standing in the game has been bought into question because they didn't do well in finals. That is kinda my point. If your team succeeds players escape criticism and their standing goes up. Poppy has benefited from that like many players in the past.

As to Breust I think he is a different kettle of fish. An underrated star and a real reason behind Hawks rise to the top. Similar to Gunston. It's these types that enhance the reputations of the Poppy's and Strattons. Breust in the 12 finals games I mentioned has kicked 20 goals compared to Poppy's 6. Averages 1.7 g/game which is just under his career average. He doesn't drop off production much come September

The truth is Poppy has about two elite traits, pace and defensive pressure. Anything else is a bonus. As you have stated Rioli, Bruest and Gunston and even Rough (great at ground level) are their for the cream. Puopolo has a role and he does it well. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think he is overrated because I didn't think anyone really rated him.

Football clubs with enough elite talent, and there are always half a dozen at least with enough elite talent at the top end, win premierships because of the strength of their bottom 6. There are not too many clubs in the AFL where Puopolo would even be in the bottom 6.

Stratton's record in finals is immense by the way - cats prelim in 2013, numerous jobs on Ballantyne, smashed Eddie Betts, smashed Delta Goodram. Another 'bottom 6' player who's contribution is bigger than it is given credit for.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Without all the competition from the other great Hawthorn forwards he could well kick 50 in a bad team.



Is that why St Kilda came 15th?



I love these threads. Its great seeing just how few good players Hawthorn apparently have. Doesnt say much about the rest of the comp. Maybe I should switch to watching the NEAFL.

Yeah because this entire thread has been about tearing down Hawthorn players.

Puopolo is a perfectly good player, he's just not as good as OP and friends seem to think. It's embarrassing to see how upset posters are getting just because others are daring to question the premise that he's underrated.

 

[Gone Critical]

The truth is Poppy has about two elite traits, pace and defensive pressure. Anything else is a bonus. As you have stated Rioli, Bruest and Gunston and even Rough (great at ground level) are their for the cream. Puopolo has a role and he does it well. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think he is overrated because I didn't think anyone really rated him.

Football clubs with enough elite talent, and there are always half a dozen at least with enough elite talent at the top end, win premierships because of the strength of their bottom 6. There are not too many clubs in the AFL where Puopolo would even be in the bottom 6.

Stratton's record in finals is immense by the way - cats prelim in 2013, numerous jobs on Ballantyne, smashed Eddie Betts, smashed Delta Goodram. Another 'bottom 6' player who's contribution is bigger than it is given credit for.

I would never knock the Hawks because they now have the 2 best sides I have ever seen play the game but still the bottom 6 is what wins you finals is never something I have strongly agreed with. Hawks are elite because their top end is so good. There are not half a dozen teams that match that, there is no one that matches that. Clarkson does a great job with his bottom six players, but they are the easiest part of the team to replace.

I dont disagree, Stratton has played excellent finals football. Being part of the great team he is in accounts for that in part. Nick Maxwell when we were playing well won best finals player 2009 and 10. Had many stellar moments. Still was a good ordinary backman who got the best from himself. Was never a star. Stratton cut from the same cloth.

 

[pacman]

hard to disagree with everything, cept "he'd get a game at most clubs". IMHO he wouldn't be in the top 10 small forwards in the comp, so i'd have him getting a game at about half the teams in the comp.

he just has the fortune of playing in one of the best teams in memory. So yeah he looks good when they put the ball on a platter for him. What a surprise.

its like saying Brad Hill is an elite winger. The guy is a seagul who looks good in an awesome team. I call it the Des Headland effect.

Gets a game at the club with the best forward line in the comp by some way but apparently would only be in half the sides.
Logic not a strong point of yours obviously.

Please name half of these sides he wouldn't get a game at.

 

[HairyO]

Yeah because this entire thread has been about tearing down Hawthorn players.

Puopolo is a perfectly good player, he's just not as good as OP and friends seem to think. It's embarrassing to see how upset posters are getting just because others are daring to question the premise that he's underrated.

Its more a case of so many of these threads talking about Hawks players who wouldnt get a game elsewhere.

I dont take it personally as some seem to, but I do enjoy the lengths some opposition supporters go to, to state so unequivocally that said players would never get a game in their team.

 

[pacman]

I liken him to Steve Morris

Except Poppy kicks goals, takes marks, tackles like a man possessed and wins flags.

 

[#gosaintas]

Hawks supporters start these threads and expect opp supporters to fawn over even their ordinary players. Do it on your own boards if you just want a mutual stroking and can't cope with the fact that the Poppy's of this world aren't rated highly anywhere but Waverley.

 

[Damon_3388]

I have always thought that reasonably average players can be made to look very good in great teams. Puopolo is a handy player, but if he was playing for Melbourne then he would not seem anywhere near as good as he does at Hawthorn.

Eg. Shannon Byrnes.

 

[randyzany]

Hawks supporters start these threads and expect opp supporters to fawn over even their ordinary players. Do it on your own boards if you just want a mutual stroking and can't cope with the fact that the Poppy's of this world aren't rated highly anywhere but Waverley.

Exactly.

Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis, Roughead, Lake, Gunston, Rioli and Gibson (roughly 1/3 of the best 18/22) are the core elite that make up the backbone of the team. Mid-tier/fringe players such as Puopolo are carried by the heavy lifting of the elite players who attract most of the attention which in turn allows their fringe teammates the freedom to shine and appear to be better than they really are to the undiscerning eye.

Put a fringe player from a Top 4 alongside a less talented elite core and their weaknesses would be more frequently exposed and hence unlikely to look as 'good' because more work that is outside of his ability as a player would be expected from him much more often.

 

[nickrebellious]

Eg. Shannon Byrnes.

Brynes had played 9 games in the his last two seasons at the Cats. How is this comparable?

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

I like Poppy a lot. A little pocket rocket who has a heap of strength and always goes in full bore. He's a bloke who has got the absolute best out of himself and like many of his team mates stands up in the big games. Besides, he's a Norwood boy.

 

[Gone Critical]

Exactly.

Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis, Roughead, Lake, Gunston, Rioli and Gibson (roughly 1/3 of the best 18/22) are the core elite that make up the backbone of the team. Mid-tier/fringe players such as Puopolo are carried by the heavy lifting of the elite players who attract most of the attention which in turn allows their fringe teammates the freedom to shine and appear to better than they really are to the undiscerning eye.

Put a fringe player from a Top 4 alongside a less talented elite core and their weaknesses would be more frequently exposed and hence unlikely to look as 'good' because more work that is outside of his ability as a player would be expected from him much more often.

Agree but I would add Breust and Birchall to the A grade , elite group. It's a massive number of super talented players in the one team and opens things up greatly for their teammates.

 

[Gone Critical]

Brynes had played 9 games in the his last two seasons at the Cats. How is this comparable?

Maybe need to widen your view a little. Dual flag player of average quality who thrived in an environment surrounded by A grade/elite players. Kicked 30+ goals a couple of seasons. Faded away a bit at the end.

Poppy hasn't played his final 2 seasons yet so am not sure why you are worrying about that. Truth is that all the great sides have some average AFL footballers within their ranks who had the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time. Poppy and Byrnes would qualify for that group and are comparable. Its not to knock those players just to recognise them for what they are. As good as they are the Hawks dont have 22 A graders running around each week.

 

[Gone Critical]

I like Poppy a lot. A little pocket rocket who has a heap of strength and always goes in full bore. He's a bloke who has got the absolute best out of himself and like many of his team mates stands up in the big games. Besides, he's a Norwood boy.

Agree with most of what you said. However not really a finals performer, if anything drops away at that time of the year.

 

[nickrebellious]

Maybe need to widen your view a little. Dual flag player of average quality who thrived in an environment surrounded by A grade/elite players. Kicked 30+ goals a couple of seasons. Faded away a bit at the end.

Poppy hasn't played his final 2 seasons yet so am not sure why you are worrying about that. Truth is that all the great sides have some average AFL footballers within their ranks who had the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time. Poppy and Byrnes would qualify for that group and are comparable. Its not to knock those players just to recognise them for what they are. As good as they are the Hawks dont have 22 A graders running around each week.

He brought up Byrnes stint at Melbourne. So at the moment we're comparing a player who has been best 22 for the last two seasons for the team that finished 1st to a guy who could barely crack a game in his last two seasons to a team that finished 1st and 7th. You can't then assume if Puopolo was playing at Melbourne next year it'd be the same as Brynes stint.