Is Puopolo underrated?

[HolyWars]

You're comparing Mitchell to Puopolo, not me pal. He is quite simply one of those players, that plays well because of the elite players around him. It's really simple. Happens in all premiership teams.

I'm just pointing out that nearly every player on our list is basically called average and would either be rubbish or not getting a game at any other club.

FTR, Poppy wouldn't be "shit".

 

[Rack Watts]

I'm just pointing out that nearly every player on our list is basically called average and would either be rubbish or not getting a game at any other club.

FTR, Poppy wouldn't be "shit".

He would.

 

[#gosaintas]

Yep - he would

 

[Gone Critical]

No special attributes, how bout ticker....

Put simply he's a goer, their is a reason why he is never dropped at Hawthorn. Its because Clarkson loves him. He has a team first mindset every single time.
Puopolo would be getting a game in every single line up in the AFL......he has a role that is a necessity in today's football, whether he plays in a very good side makes no difference what so ever because its a mindset for Puopolo, he would be doing the exact same thing in every other line up. Chasing, harassing and capitalizing on an opportune moment.

I love Pops but agree people should not get too excited about him as an individual player

Hawthorn is a great even team and doesn't need stars. Our bottom 6 shits on everyine else's. That's why Hawthorn rocks. And we have the best coach. We're a bit awesome actually

I want to flesh out my view of this a bit because it is something that has always interested me. I have long believed the old classic statement that "you are as strong as your bottom six players" to be flawed. My view is in most great teams its the top end that makes the difference and the bottom players could be relatively easily replaced. Its not to say what they do isn't important but its a necessary role that could be filled by a lot of players as long as they bought into the team.

I love Poppy as a player in much the same way I love Blairy at Collingwood. They sacrifice for the team and never give in. But they are limited role players who can fairly easily be replaced. When the team is up they will do well but once a team struggles their deficiencies will show up. Its the stars that surround Poppy that give him the career he has had. Love what he has done but he has been fortunate.

I would differ strongly from dipper86's view that Poppy would do the same thing no matter the team he was in. Part of this view comes from playing a lot of footy myself and knowing what a change the mental side of the game can have on performance. Poppy has played 5 seasons of AFL. His 1st was in a Hawks team who just missed the GF and he has played only in GF/flag sides since. Extraordinary run. When things are running for you in footy you grow an extra leg. Anyone who has played knows the feeling when you get a run and everything and everyone clicks together. You all well and truly outperform your norm. On the other end of that equation is the feeling of being overrun. running in treacle, skills go, tackles missed etc etc. Sometimes those things change in a heartbeat, sometimes they pervade a whole season. Happens in the AFL and Z grade.

Poppy has 5 seasons where adversity has hardly been felt. He has been running above the ground and good on him. Dont for a minute think though things would be the same if he spent a season or two in a team near the bottom being regularly thrashed. It would change him almost certainly. He would approach the game differently, he wouldn't have the same certainty in teammates or himself. Once you lose regularly you question yourself, your team and coach. Unity becomes more of a struggle, morale drops. All these things seep in to effect performance. I believe it is only the true top players who can rise above that and maintain individual drive and performance even when their team falters. Think Skilton, Flower, Plugger at the Saints as great examples.

I dont write this to knock Poppy, all credit to him, but he like a number of Hawks have been truly blessed to have a career surrounded by champions which has so enhanced their performance.

 

[Gone Critical]

I'm just pointing out that nearly every player on our list is basically called average and would either be rubbish or not getting a game at any other club.

FTR, Poppy wouldn't be "shit".

I would say you are getting a tad defensive. Most people here are saying Hawks have a riches of stars that allow the average players to shine more than they would otherwise. Its a pretty common view and not in anyway confined to the Hawks side.

As good as you guys are it is allowable to think of some of your players as being average. Every champion side has them. Why not you Hawks?

 

[blue harvest]

Think he is rated about right for what he does at the Hawks but underrated overall - because he would be better at another club where he would get more of the ball and more chance to assert himself and flourish as a player. The plethora of lucky bog average fringe bottom 6 role players such as Puopolo, Stratton, Shiels, Duryea etc would walk into and form a key part of most sides.

 

[randyzany]

I'm just pointing out that nearly every player on our list is basically called average and would either be rubbish or not getting a game at any other club.

FTR, Poppy wouldn't be "shit".

Anybody calling Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, etc.. obviously is an idiot and/or doesn't know much about footy and thus renders their opinion worthless.

To me it's clear that (with the exception of hfc's Top 10 players) you can easily replace the likes of puopolo with another fringe player from another team and not miss a beat.

 

[Gone Critical]

Think he is rated about right for what he does at the Hawks but underrated overall - because he would be better at another club where he would get more of the ball and more chance to assert himself and flourish as a player. The plethora of lucky bog average fringe bottom 6 role players such as Puopolo, Stratton, Shiels, Duryea etc would walk into and form a key part of most sides.

So let me get this right. Hawks have a list that is the envy of all, full of stars but this isn't enough. Your bottom six are actually repressed stars who would flourish elsewhere and grow into even better players.

It's what is probably annoying about this thread is some Hawks supporters insistance that not only they have the best team and the best players but also their bottom players are also stars who are underrated. It just wouldn't make sense for even a side as good as the Hawks to be so far ahead of all the opposition teams.

 

[threesixpio]

I want to flesh out my view of this a bit because it is something that has always interested me. I have long believed the old classic statement that "you are as strong as your bottom six players" to be flawed. My view is in most great teams its the top end that makes the difference and the bottom players could be relatively easily replaced. Its not to say what they do isn't important but its a necessary role that could be filled by a lot of players as long as they bought into the team.

I love Poppy as a player in much the same way I love Blairy at Collingwood. They sacrifice for the team and never give in. But they are limited role players who can fairly easily be replaced. When the team is up they will do well but once a team struggles their deficiencies will show up. Its the stars that surround Poppy that give him the career he has had. Love what he has done but he has been fortunate.

I would differ strongly from dipper86's view that Poppy would do the same thing no matter the team he was in. Part of this view comes from playing a lot of footy myself and knowing what a change the mental side of the game can have on performance. Poppy has played 5 seasons of AFL. His 1st was in a Hawks team who just missed the GF and he has played only in GF/flag sides since. Extraordinary run. When things are running for you in footy you grow an extra leg. Anyone who has played knows the feeling when you get a run and everything and everyone clicks together. You all well and truly outperform your norm. On the other end of that equation is the feeling of being overrun. running in treacle, skills go, tackles missed etc etc. Sometimes those things change in a heartbeat, sometimes they pervade a whole season. Happens in the AFL and Z grade.

Poppy has 5 seasons where adversity has hardly been felt. He has been running above the ground and good on him. Dont for a minute think though things would be the same if he spent a season or two in a team near the bottom being regularly thrashed. It would change him almost certainly. He would approach the game differently, he wouldn't have the same certainty in teammates or himself. Once you lose regularly you question yourself, your team and coach. Unity becomes more of a struggle, morale drops. All these things seep in to effect performance. I believe it is only the true top players who can rise above that and maintain individual drive and performance even when their team falters. Think Skilton, Flower, Plugger at the Saints as great examples.

I dont write this to knock Poppy, all credit to him, but he like a number of Hawks have been truly blessed to have a career surrounded by champions which has so enhanced their performance.

Good response even though I don't totally agree

 

[Gone Critical]

Good response even though I don't totally agree

99% will do

 

[blue harvest]

So let me get this right. Hawks have a list that is the envy of all, full of stars but this isn't enough. Your bottom six are actually repressed stars who would flourish elsewhere and grow into even better players.

It's what is probably annoying about this thread is some Hawks supporters insistance that not only they have the best team and the best players but also their bottom players are also stars who are underrated. It just wouldn't make sense for even a side as good as the Hawks to be so far ahead of all the opposition teams.

No, I don't insist we have the best players or that those players are underrated stars, was saying that those players would walk into and be better in another side.

 

[parsons nose]

So let me get this right. Hawks have a list that is the envy of all, full of stars but this isn't enough. Your bottom six are actually repressed stars who would flourish elsewhere and grow into even better players.

It's what is probably annoying about this thread is some Hawks supporters insistance that not only they have the best team and the best players but also their bottom players are also stars who are underrated. It just wouldn't make sense for even a side as good as the Hawks to be so far ahead of all the opposition teams.

Thanks for your view GC. I watch a lot of footy like yourself. I wouldn't say Poppy is a fringe player. By definition a fringe player whose place in the team is tenuous. Poppy is a permanent fixture in the team, even with a full list to choose from. However he is somewhere between 15-20th best player on the list.

I liken him a little bit to Rioli, in that when he is near the ball good things happen. His only glaring deficiency is, as you have pointed out, lack of numbers. I would contend that players like he and Rioli form the nucleus of any balanced team, simply because it is impossible to have your whole team racking 20+ possessions on a weekly basis. So the players that don't operate on high volumes are devestatingly efficient in what they do. And I believe any coach worth his salt would recognize this.

 

[Gone Critical]

No, I don't insist we have the best players or that those players are underrated stars, was saying that those players would walk into and be better in another side.

Well you should insist you have the best players because you clearly do. I just dont buy that your bottom 6 who already play very well are being held back by being at Hawthorn.

It's really the premise of this thread. Do average players look better when they are surrounded by star players. I have no doubt they do. You say no.

 

[Gone Critical]

Thanks for your view GC. I watch a lot of footy like yourself. I wouldn't say Poppy is a fringe player. By definition a fringe player whose place in the team is tenuous. Poppy is a permanent fixture in the team, even with a full list to choose from. However he is somewhere between 15-20th best player on the list.

I liken him a little bit to Rioli, in that when he is near the ball good things happen. His only glaring deficiency is, as you have pointed out, lack of numbers. I would contend that players like he and Rioli form the nucleus of any balanced team, simply because it is impossible to have your whole team racking 20+ possessions on a weekly basis. So the players that don't operate on high volumes are devestatingly efficient in what they do. And I believe any coach worth his salt would recognize this.

I see Blair as a much better comparison than Poppy. Rioli is a different beast all together. Both have identical roles, highly valued by their coaches, selected every week. Statistically almost identical. Similar skill set. Blair was a bit of a darling when we were up and about but is now a supporters whipping boy when we struggle. Many supporters want him gone, many dont realise he would look much better in a successful team even with the same output. Both play games that are defense designed and its planned for them not to pick up a lot of disposals. Sometimes what they do off the ball goes unnoticed.

If you play that role in a successful team you get much more kudos than in a struggling team. In a struggling team you have to be more wary, commit to the forward contest less because of the much greater chance of turnovers and loss of the ball.

 

[#gosaintas]

Well you should insist you have the best players because you clearly do. I just dont buy that your bottom 6 who already play very well are being held back by being at Hawthorn.

It's really the premise of this thread. Do average players look better when they are surrounded by star players. I have no doubt they do. You say no.

Of course they do and when the star players move on, the battlers are shown up for what they really are. He's in the right place at the right time and not much more.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

Have to laugh at the comments describing Puopolo average player in a good team, etc etc. Facts are is that he is in fact very quick (elite speed in short burst) one of the best tacklers in the game - invaluable as a small forward, is a better than average kick of the footy, has an elite ability to take big marks when the ball is bombed forward,rarely stuffs up with ball in hand when the pressure is on, and is as hard and tough as cats head. If that is average than i'll go he.

People forget that Puopolo went undrafted due to some serious stress fractures in his back at TAC level. People seem to underate him due to his height (174cm) which i get but as someone who seen pretty much all of his games, i can assure you that he would get a game at any other club. Richmond would gag at the prospect of having him as a small forward...

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

he would be better at another club where he would get more of the ball and more chance to assert himself and flourish as a player. The plethora of lucky bog average fringe bottom 6 role players such as Puopolo, Stratton, Shiels, Duryea etc would walk into and form a key part of most sides.

You'll have to agree to disagree with every non-Hawthorn supporter here.

 

[Gone Critical]

Have to laugh at the comments describing Puopolo average player in a good team, etc etc. Facts are is that he is in fact very quick (elite speed in short burst) one of the best tacklers in the game - invaluable as a small forward, is a better than average kick of the footy, has an elite ability to take big marks when the ball is bombed forward,rarely stuffs up with ball in hand when the pressure is on, and is as hard and tough as cats head. If that is average than i'll go he.

People forget that Puopolo went undrafted due to some serious stress fractures in his back at TAC level. People seem to underate him due to his height (174cm) which i get but as someone who seen pretty much all of his games, i can assure you that he would get a game at any other club. Richmond would gag at the prospect of having him as a small forward...

Consensus is he is an average player in a good team although I would up it to a great team. Every great team has average players who are elevated but the champs around them. He has had a great ride , a defensive forward in a team that almost always wins and in which the defense he is playing against is characteristically under siege.

I have watched Hawks routinely chop Collingwood to bits these last 4 seasons like they do to most teams. We panic, miss targets, get flustered. Poppy plays his part, but it is a much easier role to play in a team that usually shreds its opposition. The lesser players in the team get a lot of benefits. They still have to do a job so kudos to them but they are still reasonably seen as average players in a great team.

He would get a game at every other team but it would be a harder gig being the defensive forward. A position that is a bit of a grave yard in a poor team. In that situation, pickings are sparse, forwards start to play for themselves and every possession is gained under much greater pressure.

 

[TyHawk]

Anybody calling Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, etc.. obviously is an idiot and/or doesn't know much about footy and thus renders their opinion worthless.

To me it's clear that (with the exception of hfc's Top 10 players) you can easily replace the likes of puopolo with another fringe player from another team and not miss a beat.

I Agree. Good point.

 

[TyHawk]

Consensus is he is an average player in a good team although I would up it to a great team. Every great team has average players who are elevated but the champs around them. He has had a great ride , a defensive forward in a team that almost always wins and in which the defense he is playing against is characteristically under siege.

I have watched Hawks routinely chop Collingwood to bits these last 4 seasons like they do to most teams. We panic, miss targets, get flustered. Poppy plays his part, but it is a much easier role to play in a team that usually shreds its opposition. The lesser players in the team get a lot of benefits. They still have to do a job so kudos to them but they are still reasonably seen as average players in a great team.

He would get a game at every other team but it would be a harder gig being the defensive forward. A position that is a bit of a grave yard in a poor team. In that situation, pickings are sparse, forwards start to play for themselves and every possession is gained under much greater pressure.

GC, mate, you have articulated your point over and over and I actually agree with you. I think most here are not realizing that you actually 'do' rate Poppy but not in the same breathe as Burgoyne, Hodge , Rioli etc.. Your points a couple pages back was pretty spot on.

 

[mike123]

Conversely, you're a midfielder about to deliver inside 50 and both Poppy and one of of Gunston, Rioli, Breust, Roughead have got away from their opponent. Which one do you deliver to? Yeah, a heap of inside 50s make your forwards look better than they will in a team that has trouble getting it in there, but if you're fifth in line (6th when Buddy played) in a forward line full of talent, you're fighting for the scraps. Put the same forward in a team with less forward line talent, and they'll likely get a larger share of what goes inside 50. Whether it makes up for the lower number of inside 50s you'll get in a bottom 6 team is a matter of speculation.

I don't think Poppy is overrated, most Hawthorn posters seem to agree he is very handy in his role, but still a bottom 6 player at Hawthorn. The idea put forward by fans of bottom 6 teams that he wouldn't walk into their side based on his current output is simply pure jealously. The only reason a bottom 6 side wouldn't play him is because they are developing young talent that doesn't perform at Poppy's level, but their coaching staff hope by getting exposure they'll have a player that will eventually develop past him. If you were playing simply to win on the day instead of in 5 years time, Poppy would walk into every bottom 6 side based on his current output, and would walk into almost every top 12 side. I imagine the only sides that would not use him right now are the ones that have coaches that don't favour the defensive forward role, and would prefer to play two purely attacking small forwards ahead of him.

That's exactly why he won't get a game at the bottom six clubs, stop getting salty about it.

Except Carlton, they love giving games to average forwards like Ellard and Armfield.

 

[#gosaintas]

Wouldn't get a game at StKilda

 

[mike123]

Ahh yes, but everyone seems to say that about nearly every Hawthorn player. Hell, even Carey said the same about Mitchell who is clearly our best player. It's a wonder we haven't won the past 5 wooden spoons.

I'm just pointing out that nearly every player on our list is basically called average and would either be rubbish or not getting a game at any other club.

FTR, Poppy wouldn't be "shit".

How about you stick to argue against what the poster says instead of bringing in your own assumptions and quote's from Wayne Carey?

 

[Gone Critical]

GC, mate, you have articulated your point over and over and I actually agree with you. I think most here are not realizing that you actually 'do' rate Poppy but not in the same breathe as Burgoyne, Hodge , Rioli etc.. Your points a couple pages back was pretty spot on.

Yeah no worries. May have been pressing the point. Good call

 

[HeHateMe]

Wouldn't get a game at StKilda

Lonie is average. Yeah he would.